Masks again

[Bayum]

It is a sign of oppression and authoritarianism. It is also unpleasant. I am not going to wear one, whether you like it or not. If it is "no issue" why are you pushing the issue?

I see you won't answer my question; that will be because you know I am right.

We are not in an epidemic state in the UK any more; we are transitioning from the epidemic phase to the endemic phase.

Actually, I’ve already pointed out int he past that until you start giving me evidence for posts I make and supply you with references I’m not bothering with you in the main.

That's a different argument to "if it's so flimsy, where's the problem in wearing it"

The clearly is a problem with them otherwise people would wear them already.

As for the pandemic, yes there are differing views on the effectiveness/usefulness/proportionality of them. My view is that the justification or otherwise of them is very different in a largely vaccinated population to the situation last year.

People do wear them already in various countries around the world prior to the pandemic. They get on just fine and wear them out of courtesy to others rather than be mandated to do so.

 

[yorksrob]

Some of those are breathing their own bacteria back in, which does not help. Doubly so if fungal spores build up.

Personally I do not trust either masks or vaccines. Yes there is a real virus, but its dangers are vastly exaggerated.


I think that is a lot of the problem.


Good point. It's just my personal opinion, but I call them the vacc-ebo (vaccine placebo). I'm passing on the jab and I don't ask anyone else to protect me. The deaths as a percentage of population are extremely low, bearing in mind a <100 year lifespan then survival odds of 99.9%+ based on the death rate as a portion of population and allowing for age, the statistics sound pretty good without a vaccine.

Perhaps because ^in the field^, they don't work. Leakage through and around the sides makes them almost (if not) useless anyway.

I disagree. I'm very encouraged by the efficacy of the vaccine and the number of people in hospital as a result of COVID compared to last year, seems to bear this out.

But yes, the mask thing seems like a sop to the pro-restriction brigade.

People do wear them already in various countries around the world prior to the pandemic. They get on just fine and wear them out of courtesy to others rather than be mandated to do so.

I don't live "around the world" and have little interest in adopting exotic cultural norms without good reason.

 

[DustyBin]

People do wear them already in various countries around the world prior to the pandemic. They get on just fine and wear them out of courtesy to others rather than be mandated to do so.

Not this rubbish again. Some people do wear them, mostly due to pollution but sometimes so that they can travel to work whilst carrying a cold for example. Courtesy to others has nothing to do with it.

 

[43066]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-59443504

As far as I am concerned I am exempt. I will not be wearing a flimsy mask.

If anyone distrusts vaccines, they can choose to wear an FFP3 mask which is almost 100% effective if they want to (or an FFP2 which is not far off) but the idea that anyone should be told to wear a flimsy mask is completely absurd. Anyone can self-certify an exemption and there are a huge range of reasons why people can be exempt and it is up to each individual to judge that for themselves. All anyone has to say is "I am exempt" and that is the end of the matter. If anyone would find being asked distressing, then it may be a good idea to wear a sunflower lanyard. Either way, no-one can be compelled to wear a mask against their will.


This is irresponsible nonsense; the vaccines offer excellent protection against all variants and there is no evidence any variant can render vaccines ineffective

Honestly, can’t emphasise enough how dispiriting I find this. I was exempt first time around and of course will be no different this time. I had hoped never to need the exemption lanyard again, but couldn’t quite bring myself to dispose of it over the summer. I suppose at the back of my mind I suspected this might happen!

Utterly depressing.

 

[21C101]

Clucking Bells. I wouldn't mind if it made more than negligable difference.

The most poisonous whole modern fad for imposing things that make only a very marginal difference to safety (like compulsory "face nappy" useless thin cloth masks that are to a virus as a chain link fence is to a wasp and compulsory hard hats in open non construction site areas) is that they generate resentment and encourage dissent. The problem is that once that starts, people then start resenting and dissenting from really vital safety measures, because they see start to see safety culture generally as authoritarian, doctrinaire and over the top.

Part of the problem is that people now go into Safety/quality roles straight from university and implement theories and processes they have learned in textbooks, rather than after 30 years in operations or engineering at the coal face.

 

[Darandio]

Not tough enough. Exemptions need to be removed, remember we're all I this together.

(I'm alright as I hardly go out to be fair - being obese and Diabetic I'd rather stay at home and shop online than go into the germfest that is my local shopping centre)

So the many people who genuinely cannot wear one have to withdraw from normal life? But it's perfectly fine to expect this because you're alright. Got it.

 

[Pete_uk]

Not this again

 

[Merseysider]

Two words.

Bugger that.

 

[Spamcan81]

Does wearing a mask / handkerchief / snood thingy / scarf or other piece of fabric over one's face stop them catching any or all variants of Covid or any other virus for that matter?

No it does not.

Nor does it mean one will end up in ICU.

It’s not about stopping you catching it, it’s about limiting the amount of virus you spread to others.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

It’s not about stopping you catching it, it’s about limiting the amount of virus you spread to others.

But as is the obvious case from other countries with more than just mask mandates.

it doesn’t work.

 

[DustyBin]

Thinking about it Whitty was quoted the other day as saying the public may not accept further restrictions. Call me cynical but what better way to visibly test public compliance? Don’t give them the green light!

 

[Freightmaster]

Not this again

I think you missed a word out there!





MARK

 

[DustyBin]

It’s not about stopping you catching it, it’s about limiting the amount of virus you spread to others.

That will be the same virus that exists in the aerosols masks do nothing to contain, yes?

I think you missed a word out there!





MARK

At least I got a laugh out of that!

 

[Kez]

Up until restrictions were lifted in the summer, the daily Scottish infections were about 1/10 of the UK total. The primary difference in restrictions since that point has been the wearing of facemasks in public spaces in Scotland. In recent months, the daily Scottish infections have been about 1/20 of the UK total.

But, of course, that's just coincidence.

 

[Bikeman78]

I'll raise you - why didn't Johnson, Whitty and Vallance where them at this evening's (or any of the previous for that matter) press conference?

Do as I say, not as I do.

 

[DustyBin]

Up until restrictions were lifted in the summer, the daily Scottish infections were about 1/10 of the UK total. The primary difference in restrictions since that point has been the wearing of facemasks in public spaces in Scotland. In recent months, the daily Scottish infections have been about 1/20 of the UK total.

But, of course, that's just coincidence.

It’s also the case that the infection rate in Scotland has been higher than that in England. And also that Wales, with a similar mandate has the highest in the UK.

Lies, damn lies and statistics!

 

[Berliner]

So the many people who genuinely cannot wear one have to withdraw from normal life? But it's perfectly fine to expect this because you're alright. Got it.

Just picking up on this. Why is it that the UK seems to have a flimsy "exempt yourself for absolutely any reason and no one can challenge you" rule...yet other countries I've managed to get to this summer were all enforcing absolutely mandatory mask use and everyone just got on with it without moaning and rushing to buy a sunflower lanyard (a scheme which has been completely hijacked and has now lost all meaning)?

An exemption, if absolutely necessary, should be something that only a doctor can exempt the person from. It's hardly useful saying wear a mask, but really, just say you can't wear one If you don't want to, no one will ask. You can argue about the effectiveness of masks till the cows come home but this paradox that exists in the UK is even more pointless.

 

[21C101]

It’s not about stopping you catching it, it’s about limiting the amount of virus you spread to others.

It dosen't do that either unless you wear a FPP3 or something similar.

While a face nappy is very effective against bacteria; viruses (and the aerosols they are borne in) are so small it is the equivalent of putting a chain link fence round a wasps nest to stop the wasps escaping.

 

[bramling]

Do as I say, not as I do.

And if masks are suddenly so vital again, surely he should have been asking people to start wearing them *now* (regardless of any legal position), not waiting until he’s conferred with “Saj”.

As an aside, I didn’t find it very professional referring to him as that. Shouldn’t it have been “the Health Secretary”?, or at least his full name to which he is normally known?

 

[yorkie]

I wouldn't be surprised if, despite the mandate returning, enforcement is low. Mask use was already declining before mid-July this year and not often enforced, and we know TfL enforcement and compliance has been low to the point of a pointless mandate/requirement, and I reckon several months of no mandate will make would-be enforcers fearful to trying to intervene, but we'll have to see.

It could never be enforced anyway as all people had to do was say ' I am exempt'.

Actually, I’ve already pointed out int he past that until you start giving me evidence for posts I make and supply you with references I’m not bothering with you in the main.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean but I've provided plenty of references, but you make baseless claims without references.

People do wear them already in various countries around the world prior to the pandemic.

They have a different culture to us. If you want to be part of that culture, you can move there if you want

They get on just fine and wear them out of courtesy to others rather than be mandated to do so.

It is not a courtesy to others; on the contrary, in our culture it is discourteous to hide your face.

 

[bramling]

Just picking up on this. Why is it that the UK seems to have a flimsy "exempt yourself for absolutely any reason and no one can challenge you" rule...yet other countries I've managed to get to this summer were all enforcing absolutely mandatory mask use and everyone just got on with it without moaning and rushing to buy a sunflower lanyard (a scheme which has been completely hijacked and has now lost all meaning)?

An exemption, if absolutely necessary, should be something that only a doctor can exempt the person from. It's hardly useful saying wear a mask, but really, just say you can't wear one If you don't want to, no one will ask. You can argue about the effectiveness of masks till the cows come home but this paradox that exists in the UK is even more pointless.

Bit difficult to get an exemption from a doctor when at the moment in the UK it’s difficult to even speak to one, let alone see one.

And given the difficulties people are having with GP access, and the excess deaths this is almost certainly playing a part in, is having GPs spending time doing mask exceptions the best use of their scarce time?

 

[farleigh]

Just picking up on this. Why is it that the UK seems to have a flimsy "exempt yourself for absolutely any reason and no one can challenge you" rule...yet other countries I've managed to get to this summer were all enforcing absolutely mandatory mask use and everyone just got on with it without moaning and rushing to buy a sunflower lanyard (a scheme which has been completely hijacked and has now lost all meaning)?

An exemption, if absolutely necessary, should be something that only a doctor can exempt the person from. It's hardly useful saying wear a mask, but really, just say you can't wear one If you don't want to, no one will ask. You can argue about the effectiveness of masks till the cows come home but this paradox that exists in the UK is even more pointless.

Well isn't Britain doing better than those countries?

 

[Darandio]

Just picking up on this. Why is it that the UK seems to have a flimsy "exempt yourself for absolutely any reason and no one can challenge you" rule...yet other countries I've managed to get to this summer were all enforcing absolutely mandatory mask use and everyone just got on with it without moaning and rushing to buy a sunflower lanyard (a scheme which has been completely hijacked and has now lost all meaning)?

An exemption, if absolutely necessary, should be something that only a doctor can exempt the person from. It's hardly useful saying wear a mask, but really, just say you can't wear one If you don't want to, no one will ask. You can argue about the effectiveness of masks till the cows come home but this paradox that exists in the UK is even more pointless.

Doctors argued they didn't have time to do it, hell, they cannot even be arsed find time to see people that are ill. Yet it completely misses the point, not all exemptions could be ratified like that anyway. Let's get straight to the hellish situation of a rape victim who cannot wear a mask for reasons that should be obvious. Should they have to get in touch with a doctor and explain their situation in order to be given an official exemption?

 

[yorkie]

It’s not about stopping you catching it, it’s about limiting the amount of virus you spread to others.

We now know that Sars-CoV-2 is transmitted through tiny aerosol particles.

I agree flimsy masks do not prevent you being exposed to aerosols but there is no real world evidence to suggest that flimsy loose fitting masks stop you transmitting. Standard masks, which are flimsy and loose fitting, are not designed to filter such particles, which can pass through the masks as well as through the gaps at the side of the masks.

If you wish to prevent transmission, you can choose to wear a tightly fitting FFP3 mask which would be pretty much 100% effective, of an FFP2 mask which is not far off.

Just picking up on this. Why is it that the UK seems to have a flimsy "exempt yourself for absolutely any reason and no one can challenge you" rule...yet other countries I've managed to get to this summer were all enforcing absolutely mandatory mask use and everyone just got on with it without moaning and rushing to buy a sunflower lanyard

Because people in other countries are compliant with authoritarianism and are dismissive of disability rights.

(a scheme which has been completely hijacked and has now lost all meaning)?

That is the fault of those who have sought to mandate masks.

An exemption, if absolutely necessary, should be something that only a doctor can exempt the person from.

Doctors are too busy for this and how would this work when the exemption is for mental health reasons such as anxiety or distress? Your idea is unworkable

It's hardly useful saying wear a mask, but really, just say you can't wear one If you don't want to, no one will ask.

The whole concept is useless.

You can argue about the effectiveness of masks till the cows come home but this paradox that exists in the UK is even more pointless.

It's all pointless which is one of the reasons I won't be wearing one.

Well isn't Britain doing better than those countries?

We are indeed, but pro-maskers won't want to admit this.

It dosen't do that either unless you wear a FPP3 or something similar.

While a face nappy is very effective against bacteria; viruses (and the aerosols they are borne in) are so small it is the equivalent of putting a chain link fence round a wasps nest to stop the wasps escaping.

That's right.

FFP3 masks are designed to filter tiny aerosol particles, whereas standard masks are not. The aerosol particles through which Sars-CoV-2 are absolutely tiny.

It’s also the case that the infection rate in Scotland has been higher than that in England. And also that Wales, with a similar mandate has the highest in the UK.

Lies, damn lies and statistics!

Indeed; pro-maskers are very reluctant to talk about Wales. They only want to talk about Scotland on those occasions when case rates are lower in Scotland than in England; when the reverse applies they go silent. Funny that, isn't it?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

How does Johnson get these restrictions through Parliament without hundreds of his backbenchers revolting and going to the 1922 Committee?

because the idiots voted through a continuation of the Coronovirus Act 2020 so they can impose these restrictions and follow up with regulations withou parliamentary approval although i suspect even if it was to put to commons first it would get voted through anyhow as its own likes of Steve Baker and a few other Tories who realise what is going on here.

For months BoJo has held the line against a lot of pressure so why flip now? Obvious he needs some big headlines to shift him off the front pages.

 

[brad465]

I'll raise you - why didn't Johnson, Whitty and Vallance where them at this evening's (or any of the previous for that matter) press conference?

Do as I say, not as I do.

Partly Bikeman78's point, but also because, despite what some like to think, masks are a restriction: they stop you properly understanding what others are saying when they're speaking and their body language. Ironically not wearing masks while speaking, but wearing them at other times, makes any requirement pointless, regardless of how effective they are, as talking expels more air.

 

[Iskra]

If masks are genuinely important; why only retail and not hospitality too? It's just more lip service.

Anyone remember Freedom Day, when we dispensed with such bizarre tokenism? And vaccinations that made restrictions unnecessary...

 

[johntea]

Why do I sense a Christmas present of the fantastic one way system at Leeds and other stations being reintroduced all of a sudden :/

 

[takno]

can I assume everyone is English in this thread ?

A recent trip to Scotland the other week was like going back to summer… checking in, mask wearing indoors, ontrains… it was second nature, no one seemed to be complaining either.

The TfW trip seemed to be a bit more confusing though at Wrexham/Chester, and reaction definitely seemed more mixed there.

I'm English, although I've been living in Scotland for the better part of 20 years now. I don't know where you were, but I haven't seen a single person actually check into anywhere for a couple of months. Until a month or so ago there used to be a bit of a dance where people pretended to scan the codes, but even that isn't really happening anymore.

In terms of mask-wearing, it's around 80% on buses round my way, maybe a bit lower in shops, and maybe less than 50% if you don't count people with uncovered noses. Wearing when away from the table in pubs varies by establishment, but is rarely more than 50%, and mask-wearing where not absolutely required is very low. If people forget their masks they generally just seem to go into places anyway, and nobody is particularly worried about it.

The lack of complaints is mostly because people who find it genuinely uncomfortable are largely just not doing it, or at least have realised that there's no purpose in complaining to staff who aren't even attempting to enforce the rules.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

If masks are genuinely important; why only retail and not hospitality too? It's just more lip service.

Anyone remember Freedom Day, when we dispensed with such bizarre tokenism? And vaccinations that made restrictions unnecessary...

And as everybody knows, viruses don’t mutate to get more deadly, as they’d die out. The whole point of mutation in virus is to become more easily spread (and hosted) but less deadly.

“The new Omicron variant of the Coronavirus results in MILD disease, WITHOUT prominent symptoms.” -Angelique Coetzee, the chairwoman of the South African Medical Association.

"It presents mild disease with symptoms being sore muscles and tiredness for a day or two not feeling well. So far, we have detected that those infected do not suffer loss of taste or smell. They might have a slight cough. There are no prominent symptoms. Of those infected some are currently being treated at home.”