May 2021 Timetable Change

[RH Liner]

Thanks. I wonder how long it will be before it gets cut back to Mansfield due to low patronage north of there.

It’s happened once before. The RHL north of Mansfield will never do much unless and until a better northern outlet is provided.

 

[Llandudno]

It’s happened once before. The RHL north of Mansfield will never do much unless and until a better northern outlet is provided.

Do you mean better Northern Outlet or Northern Operator....

There is an aspiration to extend passanger services to Ollerton so the extra service may get diverted that way instead.

There is an aspiration for a tunnel between Scotland and Northern Ireland as well....!

 

[southern442]

Do you mean better Northern Outlet or Northern Operator....

I think they meant ending the services somewhere a little more important than Worksop.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Not sure if it's already been mentioned, but there's a recast of the Off-Peak Watford DC Lines services from 16th May:

London Overground moves to a clockface 4tph (00, 15, 30 and 45 from both Euston and Watford).

Beyond Queens Park, four Bakerloo Line services an hour will terminate at Stonebridge Park, with a further four continuing to Harrow & Wealdstone.

 

[DDB]

There is an aspiration for a tunnel between Scotland and Northern Ireland as well....!

I did frame it as an aspiration rather than a plan but at least the track already exists to Ollerton so the engineering challenge is somewhat less!

 

[ChrisC]

I think they meant ending the services somewhere a little more important than Worksop.

Connections at Worksop have always been poor with a wait of at least 40 minutes to reach destinations in the north, so it is usually quicker to first travel south via Nottingham. Therefore journey planners often do not list the shortest route or show the considerably cheaper fare to Sheffield via Worksop. Consequently it is not a route that many people from Mansfield area have ever been in the habit of using even though it is the most direct, shortest and cheapest route between Mansfield and Sheffield. Therefore I don’t think a northern outlet from Mansfield means a more important destination than Worksop but useable onward connections at Worksop and advertising to make passengers aware of this route.

As pointed out earlier the May 2019 timetable did address this situation and good connections at Worksop and reasonable journey times were available. The May 2021 timetable does not restore these connections and there seems to be no date before December at the earliest, if it ever happens, when these improved connections will be restored.

 

[dk1]

Not sure if it's already been mentioned, but there's a recast of the Off-Peak Watford DC Lines services from 16th May:

London Overground moves to a clockface 4tph (00, 15, 30 and 45 from both Euston and Watford).

That’s good. I’ve never known it any more than a 20min frequency.

 

[D6975]

Connections at Worksop have always been poor with a wait of at least 40 minutes to reach destinations in the north, so it is usually quicker to first travel south via Nottingham. Therefore journey planners often do not list the shortest route or show the considerably cheaper fare to Sheffield via Worksop. Consequently it is not a route that many people from Mansfield area have ever been in the habit of using even though it is the most direct, shortest and cheapest route between Mansfield and Sheffield. Therefore I don’t think a northern outlet from Mansfield means a more important destination than Worksop but useable onward connections at Worksop and advertising to make passengers aware of this route.

As pointed out earlier the May 2019 timetable did address this situation and good connections at Worksop and reasonable journey times were available. The May 2021 timetable does not restore these connections and there seems to be no date before December at the earliest, if it ever happens, when these improved connections will be restored.

The obvious solution is to run a Notts-Sheff service via Worksop, which under a single operator like BR might have happened. Now that the two halves of this journey are operated by 2 different TOCs it's highly unlikely that this will happen.

 

[Llandudno]

The obvious solution is to run a Notts-Sheff service via Worksop, which under a single operator like BR might have happened. Now that the two halves of this journey are operated by 2 different TOCs it's highly unlikely that this will happen.

Might help Northern’s unit and staff shortages if EMR were to operate it though!

 

[RH Liner]

Connections at Worksop have always been poor with a wait of at least 40 minutes to reach destinations in the north, so it is usually quicker to first travel south via Nottingham. Therefore journey planners often do not list the shortest route or show the considerably cheaper fare to Sheffield via Worksop. Consequently it is not a route that many people from Mansfield area have ever been in the habit of using even though it is the most direct, shortest and cheapest route between Mansfield and Sheffield. Therefore I don’t think a northern outlet from Mansfield means a more important destination than Worksop but useable onward connections at Worksop and advertising to make passengers aware of this route.

As pointed out earlier the May 2019 timetable did address this situation and good connections at Worksop and reasonable journey times were available. The May 2021 timetable does not restore these connections and there seems to be no date before December at the earliest, if it ever happens, when these improved connections will be restored.

Yes, this exactly. I’ve said before that if RHL Worksop services were extended direct alternatively to Retford (platform 2 via Whisker Hill Curve, this is important) and Sheffield it would provide a much better northern outlet. And if the Retford service could be extended fast to Doncaster then even better. But, as someone replied to me last time I mentioned this, that ain’t going to happen.

 

[adrock1976]

Yes, this exactly. I’ve said before that if RHL Worksop services were extended direct alternatively to Retford (platform 2 via Whisker Hill Curve, this is important) and Sheffield it would provide a much better northern outlet. And if the Retford service could be extended fast to Doncaster then even better. But, as someone replied to me last time I mentioned this, that ain’t going to happen.

Could the suggested Sheffield extensions use the left hand side of the triangle so as to avoid the Worksop reversal?

 

[Dr Day]

Very specific question but anyone on here know the rationale for CrossCountry making some of their off-peak calls in the Cardiff-Nottinghams (eg at Chepstow) "unadvertised"?

If services weren't running at all to save costs/allow for driver training/social distancing etc fair enough, but they are running just not stopping at certain stations. Leaves some considerable gaps in the timetable as TfW don't offer an hourly local service, plus are not running to Cheltenham, which combined with reductions on the Bristol-Birmingham axis makes a previously 80ish minute direct service Chepstow -Birmingham into more of a 180-minute service with 2 changes. Just wondering what the logic for it is hence whether it is a temporary issue or something more permanent.

 

[Watershed]

Very specific question but anyone on here know the rationale for CrossCountry making some of their off-peak calls in the Cardiff-Nottinghams (eg at Chepstow) "unadvertised"?

If services weren't running at all to save costs/allow for driver training/social distancing etc fair enough, but they are running just not stopping at certain stations. Leaves some considerable gaps in the timetable as TfW don't offer an hourly local service, plus are not running to Cheltenham, which combined with reductions on the Bristol-Birmingham axis makes a previously 80ish minute direct service Chepstow -Birmingham into more of a 180-minute service with 2 changes. Just wondering what the logic for it is hence whether it is a temporary issue or something more permanent.

Brockenhurst, Winchester, Chesterfield and Wilmslow (and possibly others) suffer a similar fate from the May timetable, albeit this is largely a continuation of the existing position as far as passengers are concerned.

XC said they stopped calling at those stations due to concerns over passenger loadings and associated onboard social distancing, as well as to increase punctuality due to dwells taking longer with social distancing.

Having unadvertised dwells in the working timetable means that they can easily be converted back to advertised dwells at short notice, without needing to rework or revalidate the timetable.

Still, this is part of a concerning trend seen in many Covid timetables, of removing 'inconvenient' services and stops.

 

[northernchris]

Still, this is part of a concerning trend seen in many Covid timetables, of removing 'inconvenient' services and stops.

I've noticed the 3 trains per day between Huddersfield and Castleford are temporarily removed from the timetable, which I think is likely to be connected to the 195 issues to free the unit up for something else. Northern don't seem interested in this route at all though, and is one I suspect won't return to it pre-Covid timetable

 

[mrd269697]

Obviously this is a rant about TFW and posting it on the Forum will not make the slightest bit of difference, but I'll try and provide some answers.
The Timetable is virtually a copy of the current COVID related Timetable with reductions across the Network as money still has to be found to compensate for a reduction in revenue from passengers hence the cutting back of some late night trains as well as many others throughout the day There are cutbacks across the South also..
A big factor is a shortage of traincrews, and which applies across the country, where drivers have still been retiring and their replacements have had their training delayed due to social distancing reasons. There has also been traction training which has had to be carried out and has been progressing albeit at a slower pace. What TFW have done is to provide a sustainable and more reliable service level rather than attempt to operate a service that would be riddled with ad hoc short notice cancellations for lack of train crew.
The North Wales coast is a bit of a pathing and calling nightmare but which was better before withdrawal of the hourly Llandudno to Manchester services and paths still have to fit in with handover times of trains from the Shrewsbury and Manchester directions and also Avanti as well as taking turn round times at Holyhead into account. It is hoped to gradually introduce the Mark 4 carriages throughout the Summer, firstly between Shrewsbury and Holyhead and then extending to Cardiff so the Timetable could have been prepared to slot the alterations in easily. One annoying thing along the Coast, and which has been mentioned in another thread, is that although at uneven times, an hourly service has been maintained but leaves a two hour gap for some stations and I can identify one such train which causes a problem for day trippers returning home. 1J98 1642 (1650 from May) Holyhead to Shrewsbury currently calls at Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Prestatyn and Flint but from May runs non-stop from Llandudno Jcn to Shotton.
In the south, many Cardiff Valley routes see up to a 50% reduction in services throughout the day and the last trains at night..
I don't think we shall see any real improvement until COVID is effectively under control.

Thank you for your informative reply

Without wishing to ignite a different debate, the PDFs now put Welsh first in terms of station names and in notes, even in England.
So we now have to cope with Dwyrain Runcorn and Dwyrain Didsbury, and also Parcffordd De Lerpwl and Telford Canolog.
Yr Heledd Wen for Nantwich is a new one on me, also Birmingham Rhyngwladol (International).
At least we are spared Manceinion Heol Rhydychen (Oxford Road) and Fictoria (Victoria) - which I have seen in ATW timetables before.

I find the spidery script ATW/TfW use for normal (through) trains (red for connections) to be quite difficult to read - Avanti and Northern show through trains in bold.
I also note that the NT Chester-Leeds trains vanish at Newton-le-Willows, no mention of a stop in Manchester.
Actually it seems they are only shown if they stop west of Warrington (and none are shown westbound).
And still no Holyhead-Cardiff trains (there are some Holyhead-Birminghams).

It is a bit confusing for non welsh speakers, like myself but publications should definitely be bilingual, though the argument of whether English or welsh is first is still valid.

 

[jfollows]

Brockenhurst, Winchester, Chesterfield and Wilmslow (and possibly others) suffer a similar fate from the May timetable, albeit this is largely a continuation of the existing position as far as passengers are concerned.

XC said they stopped calling at those stations due to concerns over passenger loadings and associated onboard social distancing, as well as to increase punctuality due to dwells taking longer with social distancing.

Having unadvertised dwells in the working timetable means that they can easily be converted back to advertised dwells at short notice, without needing to rework or revalidate the timetable.

Still, this is part of a concerning trend seen in many Covid timetables, of removing 'inconvenient' services and stops.

The XC calls at Wilmslow come about because one down morning and one up evening path via Macclesfield and Stoke is given up by XC to allow a peak time Northern service between Stoke and Manchester, the latter hasn't actually run for a considerable while now but the XC diversions still stand. And, yes, because of their timings they attract a lot of custom between Wilmslow and Stockport/Manchester and tend to get heavily loaded. So the logic is good here, at least during a period of social distancing requirements.

EDIT: 2K50 17:12 Manchester Piccadilly to Stoke returns on 17 May, I see. And 2H87 07:27 Stoke to Manchester Piccadilly. These are the Northern services accommodated by the XC diversions via Wilmslow, I believe.

 

[Watershed]

And, yes, because of their timings they attract a lot of custom between Wilmslow and Stockport/Manchester and tend to get heavily loaded. So the logic is good here, at least during a period of social distancing requirements.

The logic is only good if you think that the XC trains are full without those commuters, and the commuter services have plenty of capacity available.

In fact, the situation is currently the opposite way around. XC services have 8-10 coaches to serve a handful of medium sized stations and flows, and Northern services have 3 or 4 coaches to serve many busy urban and suburban stations. The outcome is quite predictable.

If onboard social distancing were really the aim here, XC would reinstate the stops immediately.

 

[jfollows]

The logic is only good if you think that the XC trains are full without those commuters, and the commuter services have plenty of capacity available.

In fact, the situation is currently the opposite way around, with XC services having 8-10 coaches to serve a handful of medium sized stations, and Northern services having 3 or 4 coaches to serve many busy urban and suburban stations. Take a stab in the dark as to which is typically busier...

If onboard social distancing were really the aim here, XC would reinstate the stops immediately.

True, but I avoid the XC services I mention because, pre-Covid of course, they're too busy. The down morning service quite often is 4 coaches only, when I've observed it when waiting for a different train, and pretty full before its Wilmslow call. The up evening service is certainly busy, in that the only time I caught it I bought a first class single to avoid the crush. Whether the XC services continued being busy more recently I don't know.

Also, other commuter services from Wilmslow seem to have plenty of capacity. Most recently there have been two additional fast services between 7am and 8am from Wilmslow to Manchester - one Avanti starting from Crewe and one Northern to Liverpool over the Styal line, the former returns on 17 May whereas the latter returns in June because of the problems Northern is having with its yaw dampers.

But yes, in the evening there is a fast Cardiff service from Manchester timed 4 minutes behind the XC service (17:31 to Cardiff following 17:27 to Reading) so whilst having the XC service not advertised to call at Wilmslow won't help social distancing, it rather shoves the problem onto someone else I agree.

 

[Watershed]

True, but I avoid the XC services I mention because, pre-Covid of course, they're too busy. The down morning service quite often is 4 coaches only, when I've observed it when waiting for a different train, and pretty full before its Wilmslow call. The up evening service is certainly busy, in that the only time I caught it I bought a first class single to avoid the crush. Whether the XC services continued being busy more recently I don't know.

That's pre-Covid though, when they ran 4/5 car units half hourly. Now it's 8-10 coaches every hour, so together with the overall reduction in long distance commuting it's an entirely different situation.

Also, other commuter services from Wilmslow seem to have plenty of capacity. Most recently there have been two additional fast services between 7am and 8am from Wilmslow to Manchester - one Avanti starting from Crewe and one Northern to Liverpool over the Styal line, the former returns on 17 May whereas the latter returns in June because of the problems Northern is having with its yaw dampers.

Those services will no doubt help, but it's still wasteful to throw away potential capacity.

But yes, in the evening there is a fast Cardiff service from Manchester timed 4 minutes behind the XC service (17:31 to Cardiff following 17:27 to Reading) so whilst having the XC service not advertised to call at Wilmslow won't help social distancing, it rather shoves the problem onto someone else I agree.

Particularly when the south Wales services are guaranteed to be 2-3 coaches vs 8-10 on XC. 'Let another operator deal with it' has been an alarming trend over the last year, and it's disappointing when the industry should be working together rather than passing on the proverbial parcel.

 

[jfollows]

That's pre-Covid though, when they ran 4/5 car units half hourly. Now it's 8-10 coaches every hour, so together with the overall reduction in long distance commuting it's an entirely different situation.

That's a good point, and if the services I'm referring to run as 8-10 coaches then there'll be absolutely no problem with their loading, especially given that it'll take a while to ramp up the load to pre-Covid levels at rush hour, if ever.

 

[Goldfish62]

That's pre-Covid though, when they ran 4/5 car units half hourly. Now it's 8-10 coaches every hour, so together with the overall reduction in long distance commuting it's an entirely different situation.


Those services will no doubt help, but it's still wasteful to throw away potential capacity.


Particularly when the south Wales services are guaranteed to be 2-3 coaches vs 8-10 on XC. 'Let another operator deal with it' has been an alarming trend over the last year, and it's disappointing when the industry should be working together rather than passing on the proverbial parcel.

Especially given that the railways are now quasi-nationalised and the DfT takes the revenue risk.

 

[Jamesrob637]

That's a good point, and if the services I'm referring to run as 8-10 coaches then there'll be absolutely no problem with their loading, especially given that it'll take a while to ramp up the load to pre-Covid levels at rush hour, if ever.

Well we definitely don't want, or need, pre-COVID rush hour levels again. Just more of an even split throughout the day/week.

 

[Goldfish62]

SWR timetables are now on line, plus a summary of current and new for each line.

The PDFs suggest that physical booklets are going to be available, which is welcome.

 

[james60059]

Some local observations looking at the TT change in May.

LM reinstating full service between NUN and LMS (became 1tp2h yesterday with a bus every alternating hour).

Looks like things have changed (according to RTT anyway), still going to be 1tp2h with a bus filling in the hourly gap.

 

[geoffk]

Might help Northern’s unit and staff shortages if EMR were to operate it though!

Or perhaps Sheffield - Lincoln could transfer to EMR, as it's virtually all outside Northern's area and there are no late trains to Lincoln as the stock has to return to Sheffield.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Or perhaps Sheffield - Lincoln could transfer to EMR, as it's virtually all outside Northern's area and there are no late trains to Lincoln as the stock has to return to Sheffield.

Sheffield lies only 6 miles north of the Derbyshire border and Lincolnshire is East Midlands with the exception of the bits beside the Humber (Which I believe is North Lincs anyway!)

 

[southern442]

Or perhaps Sheffield - Lincoln could transfer to EMR, as it's virtually all outside Northern's area and there are no late trains to Lincoln as the stock has to return to Sheffield.

Northern has a shortage of rolling stock now (and to be honest, in general anyways) whereas EMR, whilst not running a surplus, does have 156s and 158s soon to be going spare with no home that could potentially still be used even if they are a little on the tired side.

 

[Llandudno]

Northern has a shortage of rolling stock now (and to be honest, in general anyways) whereas EMR, whilst not running a surplus, does have 156s and 158s soon to be going spare with no home that could potentially still be used even if they are a little on the tired side.

A ‘tired’ EMR 156/158 is far superior to Northern’s refurbished 150s, especially the dreadful 3+2 seater ones!

It’s not just rolling stock that Northern always seem to be short of...

 

[RH Liner]

Could the suggested Sheffield extensions use the left hand side of the triangle so as to avoid the Worksop reversal?

I wouldn’t go with that, or you would be cutting services between Worksop, RHL Line stations and Nottingham to two-hourly. In these days of MUs it’s easy enough to reverse direction, and I envisage the service running non-stop from Worksop to Sheffield.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The XC calls at Wilmslow come about because one down morning and one up evening path via Macclesfield and Stoke is given up by XC to allow a peak time Northern service between Stoke and Manchester, the latter hasn't actually run for a considerable while now but the XC diversions still stand. And, yes, because of their timings they attract a lot of custom between Wilmslow and Stockport/Manchester and tend to get heavily loaded. So the logic is good here, at least during a period of social distancing requirements.

EDIT: 2K50 17:12 Manchester Piccadilly to Stoke returns on 17 May, I see. And 2H87 07:27 Stoke to Manchester Piccadilly. These are the Northern services accommodated by the XC diversions via Wilmslow, I believe.

The morning path between Manchester & Birmingham is taken by Avanti (and before them Virgin and before them British Rail) with the train continuing onward to London Euston. The via Crewe journey is to keep the XC timetable but avoiding conflict at Stoke. (Obviously, both trains have a few minutes difference to the clock face.) I can't see there being many Manchester-Wilmslow commuters in the morning.