May 2022 Timetable Changes

Starmill

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I just based it on how long I was having to wait during a visit a couple of weeks back (and yes, that picture was indicative of the level of patronage...)
Given the character of the part of Essex between Woodford and Hainault it's probably inevitable that it's not going to be a particularly useful service.

Elsewhere, it seems very concerning to me that from Glasgow Queen Street for Larbert and Stirling both the 1706 and 1710 are withdrawn. The latter does still run but is no longer to call at Larbert and is becoming restricted to pick up only at Stirling.

This means that passengers for Larbert and Stirling will have the 1649 Alloa service as now, and then nothing until the 1719 for Alloa. The 1700 will call at Bishopbriggs and Lenzie and the 1715 at Croy so there is probably no issue for those stations, but it doesn't seem like a sensible restriction on the 1710 at all. I wonder if they will have to backtrack on this. Is it going to be worked by a two car?
 
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FenMan

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Crosscountrys current service offer is more to do with ‘other factors’ than the budget provided, though.
Quite. I'd love to see someone posting on here to make the case that they've run the franchise well.

Harsher observers may say they're absolutely useless and have got to the stage where they can no longer remember why they run trains with seats, as conveying passengers wasn't part of their business plan anyway.
 

AlanL

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Just as passenger numbers are rising to around 80% of pre-covid numbers, WM Trains are also reducing train services on the Birmingham-Shrewsbury route by taking out a further 4 trains. The service is still only around 75% of the previous weekday timetable and only 50% on Saturdays. This will not attract more leisure passengers as services on this route are very slow and becoming overcrowded again.
 

craigybagel

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Just as passenger numbers are rising to around 80% of pre-covid numbers, WM Trains are also reducing train services on the Birmingham-Shrewsbury route by taking out a further 4 trains. The service is still only around 75% of the previous weekday timetable and only 50% on Saturdays. This will not attract more leisure passengers as services on this route are very slow and becoming overcrowded again.
They're struggling to staff all of their services as it is - a situation that's only going to get worse as summer progresses. They also need to free up staff for 196 training. Something has to give.
 

Bantamzen

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Well Northern is not really hiding the cuts, just downplaying them. Its website says:




"A small number of cuts"! Try almost half for the Bradford FS Aire & Wharfe routes. Who do Northern think they are kidding?

Sorry I know I've ranted about this across a few threads, but it was not long ago they were proudly announcing the arrival of the 331s (and they've been decent on these routes to be fair). Now they are massively cutting back to "prioritise" services (at least that's what local councillors were told) but not actually putting any new services on elsewhere, unless you consider a one-way service to Carnforth an improvement of course. In this neck of the woods we're going through month after month of crippling roadworks, some of which have led to hour-long delays & local buses totally messed up. The very last thing we need is less capacity right now. As a government owned company, a bit of joined-up thinking wouldn't go amiss. Maybe reducing some of the fares would attract people back (£7.10 peak return to Leeds from Baildon for a 13 minute journey time + connections, I'm looking at you!) & keeping the existing capacity gives some room for commuters to spread out, and still offer capacity for leisure. Under the current plans I can see more people shoehorning onto peak services where there are still a couple more available rather than off-peak where capacity is severely reduced.
 

Peterthegreat

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"A small number of cuts"! Try almost half for the Bradford FS Aire & Wharfe routes. Who do Northern think they are kidding?

Sorry I know I've ranted about this across a few threads, but it was not long ago they were proudly announcing the arrival of the 331s (and they've been decent on these routes to be fair). Now they are massively cutting back to "prioritise" services (at least that's what local councillors were told) but not actually putting any new services on elsewhere, unless you consider a one-way service to Carnforth an improvement of course. In this neck of the woods we're going through month after month of crippling roadworks, some of which have led to hour-long delays & local buses totally messed up. The very last thing we need is less capacity right now. As a government owned company, a bit of joined-up thinking wouldn't go amiss. Maybe reducing some of the fares would attract people back (£7.10 peak return to Leeds from Baildon for a 13 minute journey time + connections, I'm looking at you!) & keeping the existing capacity gives some room for commuters to spread out, and still offer capacity for leisure. Under the current plans I can see more people shoehorning onto peak services where there are still a couple more available rather than off-peak where capacity is severely reduced.
Absolutely. Six trains (3 in each direction) have been cut from the Sheffield to Leeds via Moorthorpe service. Two of these trains, one in each direction, connect with the rail replacement buses to/from York. The "connection " at Moorthorpe is now over 70 minutes. Moorthorpe is unstaffed and has no heated waiting facilities. More examples of Northern incompetence.
 

Bantamzen

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One of the problems with speeding services up is that people work out value based on journey time! That fare is not out of kilter with others.
Not for this part of the world outside of Leeds though. And the fare is rapidly approaching the cost of parking in the city centre, which was always a driver for people leaving their cars at home. I work at a busy (& getting busier all the time) city centre office, and the number of people who've recently commented on how the cost has risen so much that they "might as well drive in" is noticeably higher than before. When you consider places like this need less traffic, not more through bouncing the prices up at the same time reducing overall capacity on the triangle, it isn't exactly going to encourage people back. It is starting to feel like we passengers are more of an annoyance to the railways than an asset.

Absolutely. Six trains (3 in each direction) have been cut from the Sheffield to Leeds via Moorthorpe service. Two of these trains, one in each direction, connect with the rail replacement buses to/from York. The "connection " at Moorthorpe is now over 70 minutes. Moorthorpe is unstaffed and has no heated waiting facilities. More examples of Northern incompetence.
It seems right across their network they are sneaking in reductions. My connection isn't as bad as those you cite, but for 13 minutes actual movement connection times at Shipley / Guiseley can be 20-25 minutes. Its only for one station on the triangle granted, but its a station that could get far more use if there were better onward connection times
 

Starmill

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One of the problems with speeding services up is that people work out value based on journey time! That fare is not out of kilter with others.
It's not, but the problem is that our expectations as relatively well off people who can afford to travel by train are skewed from those of the general public. It's a good fare compared to other short train journeys but it's not very good at all for more than one adult travelling and by comparison with the cost of parking in Bradford, which is very cheap.
 

xotGD

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If you want to go to Leeds, don't start out from Baildon!

One of very few West Yorkshire stations without a direct train to Leeds.
 

30907

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If you want to go to Leeds, don't start out from Baildon!

One of very few West Yorkshire stations without a direct train to Leeds.
But even with the reductions, still a very reasonable service, apart from off-peak towards Leeds where the journey time is poor.

BTW an additional BUS service from Frizinghall to Ilkley has appeared, stopping to set down only, to cover a specific school traffic flow.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C02572/2022-05-18
The journey time isn't too bad either.
 

Bantamzen

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If you want to go to Leeds, don't start out from Baildon!

One of very few West Yorkshire stations without a direct train to Leeds.
Well you see when you live in Baildon, especially if like me you live about 4 minutes walk away, you tend to want to start from Baildon. I know it might seem weird and all...

But even with the reductions, still a very reasonable service, apart from off-peak towards Leeds where the journey time is poor.
Not when we've had half hourly services for many, many years. With bus services having been cut back, and those that remain notoriously unreliable due to the worsening traffic, the train should be a viable alternative. But instead it is being cut back. And don't forget it isn't just Baildon passengers affected, it is every passenger along both routes out of Bradford that are. Bradford has no direct bus services beyond Guiseley (and even that is only hourly) along the Wharfe route, and only one beyond Bingley on the Aire (which itself is being decimated due to Transdev operational issues as discussed on the buses forum). As I've said elsewhere, this area is one of the most congested, and most effected by traffic pollution in the region. Cutting services back to save a bit of cash instead of trying to attract more use is just pure laziness, and should act as a warning to other areas where the TOCs are government owned.

And let's face it, we all know what will happen if delays start to build up on the triangle services. The hourly Bradford-Ilkley will be the first to be cancelled to get units onto other diagrams. Its a nailed on bet.

BTW an additional BUS service from Frizinghall to Ilkley has appeared, stopping to set down only, to cover a specific school traffic flow.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C02572/2022-05-18
The journey time isn't too bad either.
That journey time is aspirational at best, realistically battling through traffic especially in Shipley & Guiseley its not going to happen. Its clearly an afterthought when the planners forgot that the schoolkids travelling to the two schools at Frizinghall in the morning also have to get home in the afternoon. It just shows what a joke this all is.
 

Halish Railway

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That journey time is aspirational at best, realistically battling through traffic especially in Shipley & Guiseley its not going to happen. Its clearly an afterthought when the planners forgot that the schoolkids travelling to the two schools at Frizinghall in the morning also have to get home in the afternoon. It just shows what a joke this all is.
Realistically it’s going to take 10-20 minutes longer if the bus stops at the drop off point next to the stations. The Frizinghall to Wharfedale demand is far too much for a single coach, so they’ll probably run multiple buses, with some going express to a station further down the line, meaning that friend groups formed of people getting on at multiple different stops wouldn’t be able to travel to and from school together.

I do find it ridiculous that Frizinghall only really exists thanks to lobbying from nearby schools, yet it’s main flow is being bustituted.
 

Bantamzen

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Realistically it’s going to take 10-20 minutes longer if the bus stops at the drop off point next to the stations. The Frizinghall to Wharfedale demand is far too much for a single coach, so they’ll probably run multiple buses, with some going express to a station further down the line, meaning that friend groups formed of people getting on at multiple different stops wouldn’t be able to travel to and from school together.
A lot will depend on where it stops in Shipley, if it tries to go into the station approach that in itself will add quite a bit of time onto the journey as Leeds Road is often heavily congested. But through experience of the bus services at the start of the evening peak, it can take 10-20 minutes just to get through Shipley, by which time you would hit the start of the really heavy traffic once you get into Guiseley. My guess will be that a lot of parents will end up driving to pick their kids up when this proves to be highly unrealiable.

I do find it ridiculous that Frizinghall only really exists thanks to lobbying from nearby schools, yet it’s main flow is being bustituted.
Actually pre-covid there was increasing use of it by commuters in the area.
 

mm333

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My pre-COVID commute was the 0724 Shipley-Ilkley. That used to be rammed with kids going to Guiseley and that's one of the ones that's been removed.
 

JRT

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My pre-COVID commute was the 0724 Shipley-Ilkley. That used to be rammed with kids going to Guiseley and that's one of the ones that's been removed.
Maybe you caught the train before to avoid them?
The 0753 (Guiseley 0802 — stand back when the train pulls in!) is the train with the kids on, that's unchanged.
 

krus_aragon

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Many of the missing Chester-Euston-North Wales services are back in the GBTT from September 12 (just as the tourist season is ending).
However there still significant gaps, eg 1035-1435 southbound.
The 0710 Euston-Chester, which used to form the very popular 0935 back, have both not returned.
I discussed these on another thread ("Holyhead/Bangor/Wrexham Avanti services" or similar) a week or so ago. The fact that September promises an hourly service northbound with huge gaps southbound must surely be an oversight, otherwise there'd be a significant imbalance of rolling stock each day. I've not dug around in the WTTs for ECS explanations yet, though.

TfW Rail timetables for May are now on the website at last.
Ah, finally! I'll have a dig through those too over the weekend.
 

30907

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A lot will depend on where it stops in Shipley,
I would be extremely surprised if it carried passengers to Shipley at all, given that there is a Bradford-Skipton ahead of it.
It helps that from mid-May years 11 upwards will be on exam leave, giving Northern till September to sort this out properly. I find it had to believe that there isn't a crew and unit spare to cover this working at least as far as Guiseley.
 

Bantamzen

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I would be extremely surprised if it carried passengers to Shipley at all, given that there is a Bradford-Skipton ahead of it.
It helps that from mid-May years 11 upwards will be on exam leave, giving Northern till September to sort this out properly. I find it had to believe that there isn't a crew and unit spare to cover this working at least as far as Guiseley.
Well it is timetabled to stop there so it will have to regardless. And besides it will still have to pass through Shipley as there is literally no other way to get to Baildon, Guiseley & beyond.
 

JRT

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Bradford –Ilkley trains to be hourly all day

Part of the reason for the demise of the Bradford –Ilkley and Guiseley – Ilkley bus services was the doubling of the frequency of the train services.
 

berneyarms

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Many of the missing Chester-Euston-North Wales services are back in the GBTT from September 12 (just as the tourist season is ending).
However there still significant gaps, eg 1035-1435 southbound.
The 0710 Euston-Chester, which used to form the very popular 0935 back, have both not returned.

I discussed these on another thread ("Holyhead/Bangor/Wrexham Avanti services" or similar) a week or so ago. The fact that September promises an hourly service northbound with huge gaps southbound must surely be an oversight, otherwise there'd be a significant imbalance of rolling stock each day. I've not dug around in the WTTs for ECS explanations yet, though.
Looking at Real Time Trains, it is clear that there aren't huge gaps southbound in the September timetable from Chester to Euston.

It's hourly ex-Euston from 08:10 to 14:10; then hourly 16:10 to 20:10.

From Chester, it's hourly ex-Chester from 06:26 to 16:35.

Some of these involve through Holyhead services and some involve sets detaching and joining with Holyhead services, and it's balanced out with additional services to/from Crewe, and some ECS working from Crewe and Central Rivers.
 

VideozVideoz

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Slightly surprised to see Northern's 07:25 Skipton to Carnforth will start back from Bradford at 06:41 and call all stations to Skipton.

Presumably frees up an EMU for some reason?
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but why terminate the train at Carnforth? Surely the majority would be going to Lancaster so would make more sense to extend it to there unless there is some operational reason

- sorry ignore this, I’ve just seen the topic was discussed in a later set of posts
 
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IanXC

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Cutting services back to save a bit of cash instead of trying to attract more use is just pure laziness, and should act as a warning to other areas where the TOCs are government owned.

We’re running these timetables to give greater stability and reliability in the train service. COVID is having a knock-on effect to our ability to resource trains from an increased level of sickness and a backlog of training for our drivers to maintain regular route and train knowledge to be able to operate. We’ve made decisions about our timetables based on the levels of resource we have available and prioritising the routes with the highest customer demand, and which support the region’s economic growth.

I think you're attributing the wrong motivation to these changes.
 

ValleyLines142

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Agreed, this is quite poor. Furthermore, if Avanti has to cut something, I don't understand why they have chosen the Edinburgh service to continue instead of Glasgow.

Birmingham to Edinburgh is already served by XC (albeit slower than the Avanti)
Preston northwards to Edinburgh is already served by TPE

So why doesn't Avanti run the 1p2h Euston - West Midlands - Glasgow, and terminate the Euston - West Mids - Edinburgh at Preston/Blackpool?
Remember the fast Glasgow services via the Trent Valley are still operating, so don't think Glasgow needs two services although admittedly this seems to be about 15 minutes before the 9Sxx's arrive so would potentially involve a 45 minute wait at the likes of Warrington and Wigan. However if Birmingham to Glasgow passengers stay on to Preston, TransPennine run about 15 minutes after.

Whilst it's not particularly difficult for Blackpool passengers to have a quick change at Preston (providing it's a cross-platform interchange), the Blackpool services have been doing reasonably well of late.
 

Jamesrob637

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So will Merseyrail be the only operator reverting to the pre-COVID timetable next week?
 

CaptainHaddock

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It may have already been asked on this thread but do any TOCs do a simple "What's changing" guide for the new timetables to save me having to download each one and compare it with the current timetable?
 

bramling

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It may have already been asked on this thread but do any TOCs do a simple "What's changing" guide for the new timetables to save me having to download each one and compare it with the current timetable?

There's one on the National Rail website, under "changes to train times". Not great though, as quite a few TOCs just report "our new timetable is available here". Some do give useful detail though.
 

Watershed

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So will Merseyrail be the only operator reverting to the pre-COVID timetable next week?
LNER have been operating more than their pre-Covid timetable since December, with the addition of the Middlesbrough services (amongst others).

TfL Rail/Crossrail are running a timetable close to, if not higher than pre-Covid (there might be a few missing peak extras?) and the Core is due to open on May 24, which is obviously a completely new service.

Heathrow Express are also running to their pre-Covid timetable AFAIK, and EMR (on the Intercity side) is running a more intensive service than pre-Covid.

But yes, the sad reality is that many lines have seen significant cutbacks and will never see pre-Covid levels of services again. Particularly badly affected are stations such as Chesterfield, Brockenhurst and Southampton Airport Parkway.
 

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