May 2025 Timetable Change - Confirmed Changes Only

[Old Yard Dog]

That's all pencilled in for December 2025 rather than May 2025. The 379s will trickle into service throughout 2025 so there will be extra diagrams from May but it won't be anywhere near the whole fleet, they still need a significant amount of work doing on them.

The LNER trains from Forster Square to London and back generally run during peak fare periods making them unaffordable for “normal” passengers - particularly when GC offer cheaper albeit slower services at similar times. Let’s see how well LNER’s proposed off peak services do.

 

[Johnny Lewis]

Does anyone have the dates from which we can expect the May 2025 timetable start appearing in TRUST and other associated systems? Please only reply if you actually know!

 

[jamiearmley]

Just because you get an occasional train and it's quiet doesn't mean they all are. You should see the morning peak trains unloading at Leeds...

I work these trains, and I can tell you that without exception, every train from Ilkley and Skipton towards Leeds on a morning has spare seats in the rearmost carriage. Regardless of how many carriages there are, pax will always fill the front coach as they think it's a quicker exit.

In the future, the demand may be there : but it certainly doesn't exist between Guiseley and Ilkley, or between Bingley and Skipton, on trains which originate from Leeds.

It didn't exist between these points pre COVID, either.

The enormous investment in platform lengthening, staff training and everything else that goes with '6 cars on the triangle' is definitely a 'nice to have' rather than a 'must' - there are far more urgent and deserving issues to solve.

Many staff on the ground are shaking their heads at the decision making process behind this move, especially given the economic climate, the demand, and of course the unreliability of both the chosen units and their ASDO system. It smacks of a vanity project managed by people who lack the courage to change course.

 

[IanXC]

I work these trains, and I can tell you that without exception, every train from Ilkley and Skipton towards Leeds on a morning has spare seats in the rearmost carriage. Regardless of how many carriages there are, pax will always fill the front coach as they think it's a quicker exit.

In the future, the demand may be there : but it certainly doesn't exist between Guiseley and Ilkley, or between Bingley and Skipton, on trains which originate from Leeds.

It didn't exist between these points pre COVID, either.

The enormous investment in platform lengthening, staff training and everything else that goes with '6 cars on the triangle' is definitely a 'nice to have' rather than a 'must' - there are far more urgent and deserving issues to solve.

Many staff on the ground are shaking their heads at the decision making process behind this move, especially given the economic climate, the demand, and of course the unreliability of both the chosen units and their ASDO system. It smacks of a vanity project managed by people who lack the courage to change course.

I guess we have to remember that the original concept for 6 cars on Leeds North West dates from Arriva's 2014 bid for the Northern franchise, which based on passenger number projections then looked logical. For various reasons it has been delayed but as you say it does maybe look like no one has been willing to question whether its still valid.

The other thing I suppose we mustn't forget is that there was also concern that the 4 car 321/322s provided insufficient capacity on Doncaster services, and that 4 car 333s was the logical way to solve that. Given the song and dance Northern made about increasing a Knottingley via Westgate arrival into Leeds to 4 cars in the morning peak to make up for a 3 car 331 replacing a 4 car on an adjacent service, perhaps that is more of a concern?

 

[jamiearmley]

I guess we have to remember that the original concept for 6 cars on Leeds North West dates from Arriva's 2014 bid for the Northern franchise, which based on passenger number projections then looked logical. For various reasons it has been delayed but as you say it does maybe look like no one has been willing to question whether its still valid.

The other thing I suppose we mustn't forget is that there was also concern that the 4 car 321/322s provided insufficient capacity on Doncaster services, and that 4 car 333s was the logical way to solve that. Given the song and dance Northern made about increasing a Knottingley via Westgate arrival into Leeds to 4 cars in the morning peak to make up for a 3 car 331 replacing a 4 car on an adjacent service, perhaps that is more of a concern?

Indeed, however there are maybe 2 services in each direction daily which warrant a 4 car currently. The rest of the time it's less than 50% seating utilised, let alone the spacious areas for standees.

And let's not forget, having standing passengers for the first few stops out of Leeds is indicative of a good balance between space and operational cost.

The massive benefit of the 4 car 333, however, is consistent positioning of both the 2 bike spaces and the wheelchair accessible area, which should reduce the risks associated with vulnerable patrons being 'at the wrong end' and going into a panic and trying to rush down the platform.

 

[hexagon789]

Does anyone have the dates from which we can expect the May 2025 timetable start appearing in TRUST and other associated systems? Please only reply if you actually know!

Deadline is 07/02/25 for the CIF data to be published, in previous timetable periods, timings have always appeared in RTT etc before this deadline - for the recent December 2024 change, much of the timetable appeared in early August with the last operators uploaded by the 28th.

 

[Bikeman78]

I work these trains, and I can tell you that without exception, every train from Ilkley and Skipton towards Leeds on a morning has spare seats in the rearmost carriage. Regardless of how many carriages there are, pax will always fill the front coach as they think it's a quicker exit.

In the future, the demand may be there : but it certainly doesn't exist between Guiseley and Ilkley, or between Bingley and Skipton, on trains which originate from Leeds.

Wouldn't a better compromise be to swap the class 331s back over so that everything can run as a four car?

 

[jamiearmley]

Wouldn't a better compromise be to swap the class 331s back over so that everything can run as a four car?

The 331 3-cars are ideally suited for the Leeds Bradford Forster Square, the Bradford ilkley, and the Skipton Bradford. In fact, for most of the day they are too big!

It's a pity that putting everything else in the hands of the 333 fleet would exceed their current fleet availability, which isn't as good as it was.

 

[AMD]

Wouldn't a better compromise be to swap the class 331s back over so that everything can run as a four car?

No at the present time, because the current useage and forecast growth demands show that having the 4 cars on Liverpool - Blackpool is the most optimum route, which coincidently the route that they were built for.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It's a pity that putting everything else in the hands of the 333 fleet would exceed their current fleet availability, which isn't as good as it was.

Mind you, I’ve definitely enjoyed having a table and an armrest on an all-stations run to Keighley

 

[duffield]

A couple that stand out to me:

• 1tp2h Bradford Forster Square to London Kings Cross
• Start of electric-only services from Wigan Northwestern to Manchester/Stalybridge via Bolton, possibly 2tph Wigan to Stalybridge.
• Possible adjustments to the Wharfedale and Airedale line timetables to facilitate the introduction of six carriage trains and 2tph Bradford Forster Square to Ilkley and Skipton.
• Reintroduction of more CrossCountry services.

Is the draft LNER timetable for May available somewhere, or at least some further details? The draft timetable for December 2025 is linked from the relevant thread and has a dedicated website, but I can't find anything at all for May 2025 beyond the snippets in this thread.
I was interested in the station calls for the Bradford service.

 

[Halish Railway]

Is the draft LNER timetable for May available somewhere, or at least some further details? The draft timetable for December 2025 is linked from the relevant thread and has a dedicated website, but I can't find anything at all for May 2025 beyond the snippets in this thread.
I was interested in the station calls for the Bradford service.

No LNER have not released a draft May 2025 timetable yet, it's only been said that there will be 6 or 7 trains per day to Bradford Forster Square. I believe that they're running in the xx:15 departure slot from Leeds in the alternate hours to the Harrogate services, as is planned for December and as the two trains per day already do.

 

[duffield]

No LNER have not released a draft May 2025 timetable yet, it's only been said that there will be 6 or 7 trains per day to Bradford Forster Square. I believe that they're running in the xx:15 departure slot from Leeds in the alternate hours to the Harrogate services, as is planned for December and as the two trains per day already do.

Thanks.

 

[JRT]

No LNER have not released a draft May 2025 timetable yet, it's only been said that there will be 6 or 7 trains per day to Bradford Forster Square. I believe that they're running in the xx:15 departure slot from Leeds in the alternate hours to the Harrogate services, as is planned for December and as the two trains per day already do.

The current trains will continue, with additional trains

 

[Some guy]

The Euston to Blackpool North via Trent valley are supposed to be returning in May

 

[Llandudno]

The Euston to Blackpool North via Trent valley are supposed to be returning in May

Crikey, Avanti can’t even reliably run their existing WCML routes reliably owing to lack of staff…

As Chester and north Wales Avanti customers would testify!

 

[ayubdaud]

Does anyone have the dates from which we can expect the May 2025 timetable start appearing in TRUST and other associated systems? Please only reply if you actually know!

From what I heard, publication of some operators started today, so may be downstream later.

 

[Chiltern006]

Greater Anglia, TPE and Northern are up

 

[hexagon789]

TPE and Northern are showing in RTT now

 

[Wyrleybart]

it’s logical from a crew point of view as Northern have a depot either side of the route, whereas Transpennine crews have to travel from as far away as Hull and Liverpool to work the service.

What was that ? Did I hear optimised diagramming

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Looks like Wigan-Bolton electrification isn't going to be used just yet then, the diagrams are all as per current

 

[MikeWM]

Nothing of interest changes for me with GA. The weekday 1707 and 1807 Liverpool Street -> Ely still don't stop at Cambridge North for whatever reason (it would be really helpful if they did, particularly the 1707), and there is still the huge gap in Liverpool Street services from Cambridge North between 1713 and 1842 - so Cambridge North irritatingly still has a much sparser service at the height of the evening peak than at all other times of day. Hopefully this will get resolved in the December 2025 knock-on changes from the East Coast recast.

The very useful earlier Ipswich-Peterborough service on Sunday morning is back, but as usual only until mid-September. This would be really helpful to run all year round rather than just the 3-4 months each year it does run, though it seems this will never actually happen.

 

[JCO1406]

No major changes for GA, looks to be some trains, especially Braintree Trains, depart a minute earlier during the morning peak.

 

[Class 170101]

Nothing of interest changes for me with GA. The weekday 1707 and 1807 Liverpool Street -> Ely still don't stop at Cambridge North for whatever reason (it would be really helpful if they did, particularly the 1707), and there is still the huge gap in Liverpool Street services from Cambridge North between 1713 and 1842 - so Cambridge North irritatingly still has a much sparser service at the height of the evening peak than at all other times of day. Hopefully this will get resolved in the December 2025 knock-on changes from the East Coast recast.

17:07
Change at Cambridge for 2H82 to Cambridge North

18:07
Change at Cambridge for 2H88 to Cambridge North

The very useful earlier Ipswich-Peterborough service on Sunday morning is back, but as usual only until mid-September. This would be really helpful to run all year round rather than just the 3-4 months each year it does run, though it seems this will never actually happen.

Send your comment to Network Rail but I doubt they will agree.

No major changes for GA, looks to be some trains, especially Braintree Trains, depart a minute earlier during the morning peak.

Looks like some Norwich trains are fast from Manningtree to Stratford on Saturdays with some extra Colchester starters

 

[iphone76]

On GA it looks like 2 Southend trains per hour now stop at Romford vs 1 Southend and 1 mainline. No mainline calls now at all for post of the day. Deep joy.

 

[MikeWM]

17:07
Change at Cambridge for 2H82 to Cambridge North
18:07
Change at Cambridge for 2H88 to Cambridge North

Not going to help for making a Cambridge North -> Ely journey - the 1707 would be ideally timed for me, if it stopped. Given it then sits at Ely for 30 minutes before returning ECS, I've no idea why it can't stop at CMB. (Yes, there are alternatives, but the 1812 is a little early for me to leave work, the 1834 is usually packed to the rafters, and the 1839 is usually late).

Send your comment to Network Rail but I doubt they will agree.

I'm fairly sure last time I mentioned this the conclusion was that there probably weren't NR-related reasons for this but rather this train always has run as summer-only and no-one has thought about changing it. But even if this is down to NR, it would be nice to see some pressure to change this. If you're travelling to Newcastle, for example, it makes the difference between being able to get there before 12.30 as opposed to not being able to get there until 14.30, a massive difference.

On another 'things I point out every timetable change' note, I see that Rainhill etc. *still* only gets an hourly service in the daytime, which is inexcusable.

 

[JRT]

A couple that stand out to me:

• 1tp2h Bradford Forster Square to London Kings Cross
• Start of electric-only services from Wigan Northwestern to Manchester/Stalybridge via Bolton, possibly 2tph Wigan to Stalybridge.
• Possible adjustments to the Wharfedale and Airedale line timetables to facilitate the introduction of six carriage trains and 2tph Bradford Forster Square to Ilkley and Skipton.
• Reintroduction of more CrossCountry services.

Bradford Forster Square – Ilkley/Skipton remain hourly during the day, with no major changes to timetables in West Yorkshire on NORTHERN and TPE services, according to RTT.
On the North Bradford Electrics, there may be adjustments due to the introduction of the off-peak LNER service.
Some Ilkley – Bradford trains will run via Shipley Platform 3
An extra trip will be introduced as part of the 'triangle' timetable
14:16 Bradford – Ilkley – Bradford.

 

[Halish Railway]

Bradford Forster Square – Ilkley/Skipton remain hourly during the day, with no major changes to timetables in West Yorkshire on NORTHERN and TPE services, according to RTT.
On the North Bradford Electrics, there may be adjustments due to the introduction of the off-peak LNER service.
Some Ilkley – Bradford trains will run via Shipley Platform 3
An extra trip will be introduced as part of the 'triangle' timetable
14:16 Bradford – Ilkley – Bradford.

Some good observations there.

I’m surprised to see that every other Leeds to Huddersfield service is being worked by TPE. I was under the impression that they were all going back to Northern with this timetable change.

 

[amahy]

Looks like Wigan-Bolton electrification isn't going to be used just yet then, the diagrams are all as per current

I seriously hope not, Northern have a shortage of DMUs as it is. So running DMUs between Stalybridge/Oxford Road and Wigan all under wires is a literal joke. Especially since some Glossop line trains are getting boosted to 4 cars “because it’s an EMU”, when the extra capacity really isn’t needed.

 

[RHolmes]

I’m surprised to see that every other Leeds to Huddersfield service is being worked by TPE. I was under the impression that they were all going back to Northern with this timetable change.

It will be partially staying with TPE for a little while longer now