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Media Coverage of COVID -19

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35B

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It's a telegraph "comment" - ie a columnist. No different to the Guardian's Opinion section
And as surprising that she'd take that stand as that some on the pro-restriction side of the debate would take theirs.

It'd be interesting if she'd written that column in the Guardian.
 
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WelshBluebird

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The Telegraph has actually used the word conspiracy in one of its headlines, about vaccine passports, posted without further comment:



(limit of article due to paywall)
I do find it somewhat amusing in a way with worries about "a papers please society" because for some of us, it pretty much already is if you take opinions like that to heart. If I'm going to a gig or a club or even just to the pub I have to carry ID because I will probably be asked for it, so its essentially already a "papers please society" for me!

Actually I do wonder, for the people who are vehemently shout about this stuff, I wonder if they also happen to be people who don't have to carry ID around with them to make sure they are able to get served / get into an event, and if for those of us who do look young enough to get ID's pretty much all the time, if we are less concerned about it because we already deal with it! Note I'm not saying I find the worries amusing, just this idea that its a slippery slope - because if it was we'd already be there based on what some of us experience week in week out!

Infact I also wonder what these people also think of pubs / bars who require ID to enter full stop for everyone - is that not the very definition of "papers please" (I remember a bar in London, can't remember the name, but my dad who is 64 was refused entry because he didn't have photo ID - he has a passport but obviously isn't in the habit of having that on him all of the time, and his driving license is an old school paper one that obviously just sits at home 99% of the time, and they wouldn't accept his bus pass! - I think he was quite surprised that it didn't bother me and my reaction was just that I have to show photo ID to get into / get served in the majority of places anyway so it doesn't bother me as I'm just used to it!).
 
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MikeWM

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And as surprising that she'd take that stand as that some on the pro-restriction side of the debate would take theirs.

It'd be interesting if she'd written that column in the Guardian.

Of course the Guardian/Observer used to be rather of the same opinion. The Observer in particular was strongly against Blair's ID cards. They appear to have entirely lost whatever principles they once believed in.

Actually I do wonder, for the people who are vehemently shout about this stuff, I wonder if they also happen to be people who don't have to carry ID around with them to make sure they are able to get served / get into an event, and if for those of us who do look young enough to get ID's pretty much all the time, if we are less concerned about it because we already deal with it! Note I'm not saying I find the worries amusing, just this idea that its a slippery slope - because if it was we'd already be there based on what some of us experience week in week out!

But that's literally the *definition* of a 'slippery slope'! The requirement for ID has creeped along into more and more settings as time has progressed, and using 'well, we do that already, so we may as well not be too concerned about this {even stricter requirement}' is precisely how slipperly slopes work.

Infact I also wonder what these people also think of pubs / bars who require ID to enter full stop for everyone - is that not the very definition of "papers please"

I've never been to one, or even encountered one in the UK. I wasn't even aware such places existed here. I'm not convinced I would want to patronise one. (They do in the USA of course, where they ID pretty much everyone in any bar, but their attitude to alcohol is rather more complex than ours, see prohibition for example).
 
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WelshBluebird

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But that's literally the *definition* of a 'slippery slope'! The requirement for ID has creeped along into more and more settings as time has progressed, and using 'well, we do that already, so we may as well not be too concerned about this {even stricter requirement}' is precisely how slipperly slopes work.
I guess what I am getting at is if I (and a large percentage of society) already have a "papers please society" for certain activities, I don't really think its on for the older generation who mostly haven't experienced that (remembering places are a lot more strict these days than what they were like when say my parents were young) to be all high and mighty about how awful that is and that its something that only happens in other countries and is totally "Unbritish", totally ignoring that is daily life for a lot of us in this country anyway! I really feels like some of these opinion pieces are written by people who have literally zero experience of the real world when it comes to things like this. Being asked for ID for certain activities happens to me and millions of other people in the UK every single week and we don't go crying in a corner about how awful it is!
I've never been to one, or even encountered one in the UK. I wasn't even aware such places existed here. I'm not convinced I would want to patronise one. (They do in the USA of course, where they ID pretty much everyone in any bar, but their attitude to alcohol is rather more complex than ours, see prohibition for example).
They absolutely exist - mainly as a clause of their license. Sometimes that means IDing everyone all of the time, and in other cases it is just during certain times or whilst certain other events are occurring locally.
 

NorthKent1989

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I do find it somewhat amusing in a way with worries about "a papers please society" because for some of us, it pretty much already is if you take opinions like that to heart. If I'm going to a gig or a club or even just to the pub I have to carry ID because I will probably be asked for it, so its essentially already a "papers please society" for me!

Actually I do wonder, for the people who are vehemently shout about this stuff, I wonder if they also happen to be people who don't have to carry ID around with them to make sure they are able to get served / get into an event, and if for those of us who do look young enough to get ID's pretty much all the time, if we are less concerned about it because we already deal with it! Note I'm not saying I find the worries amusing, just this idea that its a slippery slope - because if it was we'd already be there based on what some of us experience week in week out!

Infact I also wonder what these people also think of pubs / bars who require ID to enter full stop for everyone - is that not the very definition of "papers please" (I remember a bar in London, can't remember the name, but my dad who is 64 was refused entry because he didn't have photo ID - he has a passport but obviously isn't in the habit of having that on him all of the time, and his driving license is an old school paper one that obviously just sits at home 99% of the time, and they wouldn't accept his bus pass! - I think he was quite surprised that it didn't bother me and my reaction was just that I have to show photo ID to get into / get served in the majority of places anyway so it doesn't bother me as I'm just used to it!).

Photo ID for pubs to check the age of the patron is entirely different from showing your health status, it’s utterly ridiculous and not necessary, this goes against every law and civil rights possible
 

DustyBin

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I do find it somewhat amusing in a way with worries about "a papers please society" because for some of us, it pretty much already is if you take opinions like that to heart. If I'm going to a gig or a club or even just to the pub I have to carry ID because I will probably be asked for it, so its essentially already a "papers please society" for me!

Actually I do wonder, for the people who are vehemently shout about this stuff, I wonder if they also happen to be people who don't have to carry ID around with them to make sure they are able to get served / get into an event, and if for those of us who do look young enough to get ID's pretty much all the time, if we are less concerned about it because we already deal with it! Note I'm not saying I find the worries amusing, just this idea that its a slippery slope - because if it was we'd already be there based on what some of us experience week in week out!

Infact I also wonder what these people also think of pubs / bars who require ID to enter full stop for everyone - is that not the very definition of "papers please" (I remember a bar in London, can't remember the name, but my dad who is 64 was refused entry because he didn't have photo ID - he has a passport but obviously isn't in the habit of having that on him all of the time, and his driving license is an old school paper one that obviously just sits at home 99% of the time, and they wouldn't accept his bus pass! - I think he was quite surprised that it didn't bother me and my reaction was just that I have to show photo ID to get into / get served in the majority of places anyway so it doesn't bother me as I'm just used to it!).

I actually see where you're coming from and whilst my "do you have ID mate" days are gone, I may still be required to produce my driving license for example if asked to do so by a police officer. I don't have an issue with this as it's simply a way of confirming that I am "entitled" to be doing something that requires a level of competency in order to be done safely (that's the principle anyway!).

Having to produce "papers" in order to go about your everyday business however quite different. It's an unprecedented erosion of personal freedom and increase in state control. By not following a government mandate, or even "guidance" you could be effectively excluded from society. The vaccine passport is a little taste of this. Where I think we differ is that I don't trust it to stop there. You'd be correct in saying that there's no evidence at this stage that it will evolve into something more far reaching, and we're certainly a long way from something like social credit. We are however taking the first step towards this kind of future and the dangers need identifying and discussing, and the policy opposing, now rather than when it's too late.
 

MikeWM

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I guess what I am getting at is if I (and a large percentage of society) already have a "papers please society" for certain activities, I don't really think its on for the older generation who mostly haven't experienced that (remembering places are a lot more strict these days than what they were like when say my parents were young) to be all high and mighty about how awful that is and that its something that only happens in other countries and is totally "Unbritish", totally ignoring that is daily life for a lot of us in this country anyway! I really feels like some of these opinion pieces are written by people who have literally zero experience of the real world when it comes to things like this. Being asked for ID for certain activities happens to me and millions of other people in the UK every single week and we don't go crying in a corner about how awful it is!

I understand your point, but I would stress your own point that this has been a fairly recent development, it hasn't always been like this. Is society better as a result of this change to require ID for all manner of activities?

The other point of course is that requirements to obtain the current forms of ID are minimal (assuming that you are a British citizen of course - immigrants would probably disagree, and 'illegal' immigrants even more so. but that's a separate issue).

But here we're talking about requiring 'ID' that is conditional on satisfying whatever conditions the state imposes (and, being digital, that could change regularly, perhaps even daily). The first such condition is 'vaccination against a specific disease' - which should never be a requirement for participation in society. But what further conditions will be imposed in the future? Once the infrastructure and the mechansims of enforcement are in place, if anyone really thinks there won't be 'mission creep' then, to be blunt, they're terribly naive.

They absolutely exist - mainly as a clause of their license. Sometimes that means IDing everyone all of the time, and in other cases it is just during certain times or whilst certain other events are occurring locally.

I certainly didn't mean to imply I didn't believe you as to their existence - apologies if it sounded like that! But yes, licensing bodies have too much power. I've been concerned for years about them insisting that pubs fit CCTV systems as a condition of their license, for example.
 

jumble

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I guess what I am getting at is if I (and a large percentage of society) already have a "papers please society" for certain activities, I don't really think its on for the older generation who mostly haven't experienced that (remembering places are a lot more strict these days than what they were like when say my parents were young) to be all high and mighty about how awful that is and that its something that only happens in other countries and is totally "Unbritish", totally ignoring that is daily life for a lot of us in this country anyway! I really feels like some of these opinion pieces are written by people who have literally zero experience of the real world when it comes to things like this. Being asked for ID for certain activities happens to me and millions of other people in the UK every single week and we don't go crying in a corner about how awful it is!

They absolutely exist - mainly as a clause of their license. Sometimes that means IDing everyone all of the time, and in other cases it is just during certain times or whilst certain other events are occurring locally.

I do find it somewhat amusing in a way with worries about "a papers please society" because for some of us, it pretty much already is if you take opinions like that to heart. If I'm going to a gig or a club or even just to the pub I have to carry ID because I will probably be asked for it, so its essentially already a "papers please society" for me!

Actually I do wonder, for the people who are vehemently shout about this stuff, I wonder if they also happen to be people who don't have to carry ID around with them to make sure they are able to get served / get into an event, and if for those of us who do look young enough to get ID's pretty much all the time, if we are less concerned about it because we already deal with it! Note I'm not saying I find the worries amusing, just this idea that its a slippery slope - because if it was we'd already be there based on what some of us experience week in week out!

Infact I also wonder what these people also think of pubs / bars who require ID to enter full stop for everyone - is that not the very definition of "papers please" (I remember a bar in London, can't remember the name, but my dad who is 64 was refused entry because he didn't have photo ID - he has a passport but obviously isn't in the habit of having that on him all of the time, and his driving license is an old school paper one that obviously just sits at home 99% of the time, and they wouldn't accept his bus pass! - I think he was quite surprised that it didn't bother me and my reaction was just that I have to show photo ID to get into / get served in the majority of places anyway so it doesn't bother me as I'm just used to it!).
There is a huge difference between ID for Nightclubs and ID for pubs
A nightclub checks everyone who enters to see if they have paid
I can sit in a pub garden and have someone else buy me a drink and on a busy night doubt any pub staff will be coming around inspecting.
A bit tricky for the pub if the drinks have been paid for to evict a punter if they are the type to kick off ( which I am not)
 

35B

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Photo ID for pubs to check the age of the patron is entirely different from showing your health status, it’s utterly ridiculous and not necessary, this goes against every law and civil rights possible
Actually, it doesn’t. Mandatory vaccination has been found legitimate despite human rights challenges; measures requiring it have relied upon individuals proving their status (or that of their children).

There are plenty of more intrusive requirements to share personal health information as part of normal life than demonstrating whether or not you have received a particular vaccination. Likewise, civil rights as a concept rely on a balance between the rights of an individual, and the interests of the group as a whole.

Whether or not vaccine passports are good or effective policy is a separate question, on which I suspect we may have less difference between us than first appears.
 

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brad465

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There's a story on the front page of The Telegraph tomorrow suggesting the vaccine passport idea is "facing collapse", citing indications Labour will oppose them:

1626910068567.png

A Labour spokesman claims such passports are "costly, open to fraud and impractical", also recognising that being double jabbed doesn't stop someone carrying the virus, while at least 42 Tory MPs are expected to oppose them, enough to defeat the Government if the opposition opposed unanimously. I would expect though if a vote on them looks set to be lost, the Government won't host the vote and try and quietly drop the proposal.
 

yorksrob

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Another article where 'could' 'might' etc appear. There's a surprise

It's one reason why it was worth going ahead with the full easing when we did. It gives SAGE something to call for so that they can be seen to be doing something (had this easing not happened, it would be the previous one they would be asking to be rolled back).
 
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Class 33

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It's one reason why it was worth going ahead with the full easing when we did. It gives SAGE something to call for so that they can be seen to be doing something (had this easing not happened, it would be the previous one they would be asking to be rolled back).

Sage can bugger off. Social distancing and face mask wearing has now been finally scrapped, and they can never come back
 
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jumble

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Actually, it doesn’t. Mandatory vaccination has been found legitimate despite human rights challenges; measures requiring it have relied upon individuals proving their status (or that of their children).

There are plenty of more intrusive requirements to share personal health information as part of normal life than demonstrating whether or not you have received a particular vaccination. Likewise, civil rights as a concept rely on a balance between the rights of an individual, and the interests of the group as a whole.

Whether or not vaccine passports are good or effective policy is a separate question, on which I suspect we may have less difference between us than first appears.
Are we talking about mandatory vaccines here in the UK?

( Ignoring those cases where a court rules on behalf of someone who does not have the capacity to decide for themselves)

Ps I think it is quite difficult for the authorities to get hold of illegal immigrants, people of no fixed abode, foreign tourists in campervans etc to make them have vaccines
 

Eyersey468

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yorksrob said:
It's one reason why it was worth going ahead with the full easing when we did. It gives SAGE something to call for so that they can be seen to be doing something (had this easing not happened, it would be the previous one they would be asking to be rolled back).
Class 33 said:
Sage can bugger off. Social distancing and face mask wearing has now been finally scrapped, and they can never come back
Sorry but given this government's track record of u turns I don't trust them to not reintroduce them
 
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35B

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Are we talking about mandatory vaccines here in the UK?

( Ignoring those cases where a court rules on behalf of someone who does not have the capacity to decide for themselves)

Ps I think it is quite difficult for the authorities to get hold of illegal immigrants, people of no fixed abode, foreign tourists in campervans etc to make them have vaccines
No, I’m referring to cases that have gone before more human rights friendly courts in Europe (ECHR) and the US.
 

NorthKent1989

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Actually, it doesn’t. Mandatory vaccination has been found legitimate despite human rights challenges; measures requiring it have relied upon individuals proving their status (or that of their children).
There are plenty of more intrusive requirements to share personal health information as part of normal life than demonstrating whether or not you have received a particular vaccination. Likewise, civil rights as a concept rely on a balance between the rights of an individual, and the interests of the group as a whole.

Whether or not vaccine passports are good or effective policy is a separate question, on which I suspect we may have less difference between us than first appears.

I understand mandatory vaccines if Covid was anywhere near as deadly as Ebola, but it isn’t, therefore mandatory vaccines for what is now a seasonal respiratory virus is redundant.
 

WestRiding

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Can you really be so certain about that? Government track record being what it is, etc.
I fully expect mask wearing to come back. There are too many people wanting to wear one. SAGE has already hinted at restrictions coming back in August because of rising cases. People truely believe that masks are the be all and end all. Wore a mask and played by the rules since all this started, and where has it got us. Mask wearing I fear, will be back.
 

Bantamzen

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I fully expect mask wearing to come back. There are too many people wanting to wear one. SAGE has already hinted at restrictions coming back in August because of rising cases. People truely believe that masks are the be all and end all. Wore a mask and played by the rules since all this started, and where has it got us. Mask wearing I fear, will be back.
If it were left up to SAGE, we would be kept in our cages almost 24/7 to be prodded and poked for data, released only occasionally to run around mazes looking for bits of cheese! We should always keep in mind that whilst they do all have scientific backgrounds, there's still a risk that they have come to see this all as a big experiment to test their theories. And sometimes even scientists get into ruts where their theories just don't play out, so they want to try different experiments to see if they can prove said theories.

So yes, they will continue to call for restrictions. However it should also be remembered that they do not make the decisions. At some point the experimentation has to end, whether the scientists and data analysts like it or not. If people want to carry on wearing masks fair enough, things like masks worn without the strict discipline demanded in medical scenarios are little more than comfort blankets (and at least one member of SAGE partly agrees) that serve little more than to keep us compliant.
 

Class 33

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I fully expect mask wearing to come back. There are too many people wanting to wear one. SAGE has already hinted at restrictions coming back in August because of rising cases. People truely believe that masks are the be all and end all. Wore a mask and played by the rules since all this started, and where has it got us. Mask wearing I fear, will be back.

SAGE may well want restrictions to come back, but they're not the government. The government doesn't have to do what these nuisance SAGE people want. These people want restrictions to remain forever it seems! They're nutters! There is absolutely no justification atall for any restrictions to come back again. We have to get back to normal now.

Yes there were a lot of people wearing masks on Monday, the day restrictions lifted. I was absolutely flaberghasted that so many people were still wearing the silly things! But from my observations things have improved since then, the number of people wearing them has noticeably declined. Here in Bristol it's down to about 50% wearing them on buses now, and about 50-60% wearing them in shops.
 

kez19

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SAGE may well want restrictions to come back, but they're not the government. The government doesn't have to do what these nuisance SAGE people want. These people want restrictions to remain forever it seems! They're nutters! There is absolutely no justification atall for any restrictions to come back again. We have to get back to normal now.

Yes there were a lot of people wearing masks on Monday, the day restrictions lifted. I was absolutely flaberghasted that so many people were still wearing the silly things! But from my observations things have improved since then, the number of people wearing them has noticeably declined. Here in Bristol it's down to about 50% wearing them on buses now, and about 50-60% wearing them in shops.

Flip the coin how would they “SAGE” like it if we the public experimented on them? SAGE and the alike do tend to forget this and in time this will indeed catch up to them, for now they may seem out of the woods but that day is coming.
 

birchesgreen

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Flip the coin how would they “SAGE” like it if we the public experimented on them? SAGE and the alike do tend to forget this and in time this will indeed catch up to them, for now they may seem out of the woods but that day is coming.
What would you like to do to SAGE members exactly?
 

kez19

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What would you like to do to SAGE members exactly?

Hold on why you asking me? It’s them that are doing the experiments?

Hate to break it to you, but my nature is that I’m kind to everyone but I believe if this has all been an experiment on us then surely payback is earned is it not? People have lost lives/livelihoods, health has been shot but yes let’s continue giving these people a free pass, is this the way you think it should go?

What would I like to see if I’m honest? Accountability then we the public can decide how about that? Why not parade them on live tv “big brother” style? Or how about we go darker if you wanted? Chinese style punishment? Come on look at them they want this.
 
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35B

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I understand mandatory vaccines if Covid was anywhere near as deadly as Ebola, but it isn’t, therefore mandatory vaccines for what is now a seasonal respiratory virus is redundant.
Other countries have made a variety of vaccines mandatory - California did so for measles following outbreaks that killed very few by comparison with Covid.
 

Yew

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Other countries have made a variety of vaccines mandatory - California did so for measles following outbreaks that killed very few by comparison with Covid.
Mandatory vaccination is specifically precluded from powers given under the Public Health Act.
 
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