Merseyrail Expansion

[HSTEd]

How much is this from people driving to Hunts Cross rather than their local station, because of the better level of service?*

So if their local station had that better level of service, how many would change to using their local station instead?

*yes, I know that Hunts Cross has minimal parking for the station. I don't know how much people park on the streets to get the train - and how many people now drive to South Parkway to then get the train to Liverpool.

There probably is significant amounts of railheading.
But the disparity is so enormous that I am skeptical it could really explain it.

And of course, there is the issue that a service to Lime Street is not qualitatively the same as a Merseyrail service that has a variety of destinations in the city centre.
So would they switch to their local station, or would they railhead to Liverpool South Parkway instead?

I'd suggest you look at a map because you don't know where Castlefield Junction is

Clue: it's west of Deansgate station.

Yes, and there would (presumably) be a track fitted to the south side of it that carried the Merseyrail trains into (and out of) the bay and nothing else.
The junction as it exists now would become almost defunct apart from the relative handful of freight trains.

It does a bit, yes. And that doesn't interact with very much - only other LU lines and 1/2 trains per hour of Chiltern.

I guess the question is how far is too far is a question that has to be asked.
Especially in relation to Wigan, Wrexham and the like.

EDIT:
In actuality the extra line would probably be on the north side of the alignment because of buildings, but the entire formation would move north, so the "new" line would be on the south side.
But as I said, not really a serious proposal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, and there would be a track fitted to the south side of it that carried the Merseyrail trains into (and out of) the bay and nothing else.
The junction as it exists now would become almost defunct apart from the handful of freight trains.

That would be extraordinarily expensive in order to achieve a service that wouldn't be as useful as not doing it.

Just let Merseyrail do what it's good at - being a local S-Bahn for Liverpool and its immediate surrounds (i.e. places that currently feature on the Merseyrail map). You don't have to turn it into the Lizzie or Thameslink - indeed Thameslink is a great example of how to mess something up that was wonderfully simple as it was by adding too much to it.

I guess the question is how far is too far is a question that has to be asked.
Especially in relation to Wigan, Wrexham and the like.

On the basis that almost everyone is going to/from Liverpool city centre, Southport is the longest line at about 45 minutes, and is arguably too long already (and in the past used to have semifast services to counter that). Longer than that I'd say isn't appropriate, nor is going to places that are very rural (towards Preston, other than Burscough which will be a continuous conurbation joined to Ormskirk before very long) or in other city regions (Manchester).

Wigan would be a similar journey time to Ormskirk. Wrexham I don't support as the line is too rural south of Shotton. Though Wrexham-Bidston is almost self-contained (the punctuality problem it had for a while was simply because of the excessively tight timetable), and so a sort of hybrid of operating a bimode regional service into the presently disused James St platform may work as a means of bringing that in rather than buffer stops at Shotton. And that could allow the use of more suitable regional stock with toilets, comfortable seats etc, even if for commonality they were actually modified 777s with those things added.

 

[HSTEd]

On the basis that almost everyone is going to/from Liverpool city centre, Southport is the longest line at about 45 minutes, and is arguably too long already (and in the past used to have semifast services to counter that). Longer than that I'd say isn't appropriate, nor is going to places that are very rural (towards Preston, other than Burscough which will be a continuous conurbation joined to Ormskirk before very long) or in other city regions (Manchester).

Wigan would be a similar journey time to Ormskirk. Wrexham I don't support as the line is too rural south of Shotton. Though Wrexham-Bidston is almost self-contained (the punctuality problem it had for a while was simply because of the excessively tight timetable), and so a sort of hybrid of operating a bimode regional service into the presently disused James St platform may work as a means of bringing that in rather than buffer stops at Shotton. And that could allow the use of more suitable regional stock with toilets, comfortable seats etc, even if for commonality they were actually modified 777s with those things added.

I think I largely agree, Wigan and Warrington make a lot of sense to me.
The route to Warrington is almost entirely built up around the railway, and Wigan would allow the railway industry to be rid of an operationally awkward branch, as well as providing some kind of Merseyrail service to the Skelmersdale area.

The idea of a regional service to Wrexham out of the largely disused platform at James Street would probably allow us to square the circle of serving it properly. I don't think having a little disconnected rural branch off by itself is particularly helpful to anyone, and it can fairly easily be made self contained at the other end. Although as you say, rolling stock might be something of an issue, unless you could build a regional electrodiesel 777 without needing to change too many parts for commonality.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think I largely agree, Wigan and Warrington make a lot of sense to me.
The route to Warrington is almost entirely built up around the railway, and Wigan would allow the railway industry to be rid of an operationally awkward branch, as well as providing some kind of Merseyrail service to the Skelmersdale area.

Indeed. Wigan would allow a simpler post electrification operating pattern - 2tph EMU Wigan North Western to Manchester and onwards via Bolton, 2tph DMU Southport-Manchester and onwards via Atherton. The Kirkby rather gets in the way of all that. Yes, I know some people travel to Manchester, but only a rail enthusiast would prefer one train an hour with no evening or Sunday service over a connection four times per hour running well past 2300 daily.

And yes, I think land in Pimbo that is presently unused should be used to build "Skelmersdale Parkway" using the Upholland platforms but with a new two-deck car park and station building in Pimbo and new access via a new footbridge with lifts.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Harking back to the subject of Deansgate station, in recent years, there has been much redevelopment of the surrounding south land area but I see that matter has not been mentioned. Surely, if any proposed railway land use on that side of the station had been known and had been found by the legal teams acting for the property developers, it would have reached the ears of the local media as being a matter of public interest. As far as I have been able to ascertain, no such railway development of the Deansgate station area was found and the matter of the actual developments all received the planning consent required.

I have been discussing this thread matter with one of my similar old-aged neighbours who originally hailed from the Childwall area and he says that if a reverse scenario existed, how Liverpuddlians would react to the idea of the Manchester Metrolink tram system being extended into the Merseyside area and bringing new public transport life back to what once was the North Liverpool Extension Line, with tram stops serving the areas of Gateacre, Childwall, Knotty Ash, West Derby and up into the Aintree area. I think he envisaged tram-trains, not the trams.

 

[MarkyT]

Indeed. Wigan would allow a simpler post electrification operating pattern - 2tph EMU Wigan North Western to Manchester and onwards via Bolton, 2tph DMU Southport-Manchester and onwards via Atherton. The Kirkby rather gets in the way of all that. Yes, I know some people travel to Manchester, but only a rail enthusiast would prefer one train an hour with no evening or Sunday service over a connection four times per hour running well past 2300 daily.

Wigan is a compelling target for interconnection with other services too. WCML heading north for example. And there's a bay to terminate in. I don't know if it's worth extending the full service, maybe only alternate trains, with others turning back at Upholland.

And yes, I think land in Pimbo that is presently unused should be used to build "Skelmersdale Parkway" using the Upholland platforms but with a new two-deck car park and station building in Pimbo and new access via a new footbridge with lifts.

Agreed, with some town bus routes extended out to the station and surrounding industrial estates. Let's not call it 'parkway' though just because it has a car park. Most stations have those today! I'd prefer 'Skelmersdale Interchange' or 'Upholland for Skelmersdale'. If Skelmersdale insisted on keeping its Manchester trains, the station could be the terminus for both Merseyrail and the Northern service.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

And yes, I think land in Pimbo that is presently unused should be used to build "Skelmersdale Parkway" using the Upholland platforms but with a new two-deck car park and station building in Pimbo and new access via a new footbridge with lifts.

Let's not call it 'parkway' though just because it has a car park. Most stations have those today! I'd prefer 'Skelmersdale Interchange' or 'Upholland for Skelmersdale'.

Actually - for the moment, just on this forum, yes, let's call it 'Parkway'. I suggested it (and it seems to have been adopted) as a useful shorthand for a Skem station on the existing line as opposed to 'Town' or 'Central' which would require the addition of a branch from the existing line to somewhere in the town area.

Let's worry about an actual name for an actual station when there's some sign of the thing being built.

 

[HSTEd]

Agreed, with some town bus routes extended out to the station and surrounding industrial estates. Let's not call it 'parkway' though just because it has a car park. Most stations have those today! I'd prefer 'Skelmersdale Interchange' or 'Upholland for Skelmersdale'. If Skelmersdale insisted on keeping its Manchester trains, the station could be the terminus for both Merseyrail and the Northern service.

I think four trains per hour to Wigan and then four trains per hour from there to Manchester is more compelling than an hourly through train. But perhaps I am wrong.
I'm not sure its worth turning trains back a few kilometres early rather than just running them all through.

 

[CaramellDansen]

Still on the topic of Merseyrail Expansion, wouldn't a link to Halewood, be more practical than Gateacre?

A "Halewood North" station around Lydiate Lane / Okell Drive could be viable (on the line towards Gateacre)

Also, doing the Fiddler's Ferry line, you could get a Halewood South station near where the old RSPCA was. See my MyMaps crayonista creation below!

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/e...ll=53.389461863863424,-2.836470022113744&z=12

Just let Merseyrail do what it's good at - being a local S-Bahn for Liverpool and its immediate surrounds

That's a very odd thing to say to anyone who doesn't already live near a Merseyrail station.
Merseyrail's coverage of Liverpool alone is laughably bad (let alone to large destinations bordering the city)... especially in the east and south. The only well-served parts of the city are the centre and north.
It's fairly uncontroversial to say a loop line via the Extension line is an obvious inclusion to anyone who cares about climate change, traffic and high-quality transit.
The only people I can think about who wouldn't agree are the ruling class, sycophants of the ruling class and those who don't know any better.

(It's not even good at being a "local S-bahn for Liverpool")

 

[Bletchleyite]

(It's not even good at being a "local S-bahn for Liverpool")

It's absolutely excellent at doing it for the part of the city it does cover. Merseytram was largely going to plug the gaps.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Agreed, with some town bus routes extended out to the station and surrounding industrial estates. Let's not call it 'parkway' though just because it has a car park. Most stations have those today! I'd prefer 'Skelmersdale Interchange' or 'Upholland for Skelmersdale'. If Skelmersdale insisted on keeping its Manchester trains, the station could be the terminus for both Merseyrail and the Northern service.

Let us not forget that the official decision on the matter of a new station for Skelmersdale was reached not so very long ago.

Has something happened in the time period since then that would see that official decision overturned?

 

[CaramellDansen]

It's absolutely excellent at doing it for the part of the city it does cover.

cough, Overcrowding at Liverpool Central, cough

 

[Bletchleyite]

Let us not forget that the official decision on the matter of a new station for Skelmersdale was reached not so very long ago.

Has something happened in the time period since then that would see that official decision overturned?

We aren't talking about building the Skelmersdale branch, on which it was indeed. We're talking about upgrading and renaming an existing station, Upholland.

cough, Overcrowding at Liverpool Central, cough

Nothing is perfect. If it bothers you that much use Moorfields.

Sorting out Central (which requires either a second island or a switch to wide side platforms - there's no track capacity issue and if there was it could be done by sending some services to Baltic to reverse once that opens) is incredibly expensive and not within the reach of Merseyrail themselves, nor really of the City Region - it's a very expensive project that will take years and require central Government funding.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We aren't talking about building the Skelmersdale branch, on which it was indeed. We're talking about upgrading and renaming an existing station, Upholland.

Having seen much time and money spent in moving the connection lines to Headbolt Lane, why is Upholland now on the agenda?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having seen much time and money spent in moving the connection lines to Headbolt Lane, why is Upholland now on the agenda?

Because the title of this thread is "Merseyrail Expansion", and it's a speculative thread so any and all suggestions and ideas are welcome in it?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Because the title of this thread is "Merseyrail Expansion", and it's a speculative thread so any and all suggestions and ideas are welcome in it?

Point understood. I assumed the Upholland idea emanated because people were unhappy with the decision to bring Headbolt Lane into fruition.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Point understood. I assumed the Upholland idea emanated because people were unhappy with the decision to bring Headbolt Lane into fruition.

I don't think anyone is unhappy with Headbolt existing, it just isn't a particularly useful parkway station for Skelmersdale despite being sold as such (because Maghull North is about 5 minutes quicker by car).

 

[MarkyT]

Actually - for the moment, just on this forum, yes, let's call it 'Parkway'. I suggested it (and it seems to have been adopted) as a useful shorthand for a Skem station on the existing line as opposed to 'Town' or 'Central' which would require the addition of a branch from the existing line to somewhere in the town area.

Ok, for cross-referencing here, but I really don't like the hackneyed '70s term! A bit disrespectful in a town with the lowest car availablilty in W Lancs, when there's only a very minimal bus service to the station area today and no bus stops whatsoever in the Pimbo industrial estate (where a large proportion of the residents work according to the Skelmersdale Rail Link business case, based on census data). On the edge of town on the wrong side of the M58, the site's clearly not 'Central' but could be 'Main' in a German sense, which probably means it should just be called 'Skelmersdale' in the UK. The station's no further from the new town shopping centre than is the case at Runcorn for both stations, although clearly there's a historic town core near the WCML station in Runcorn, and reasonable transport to the nominal centre from both. With an interchange at Upholland, it's possible the Pimbo area may get some further development. That Upholland isn't actually in Skelmersdale might be a planning challenge.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

With an interchange at Upholland, it's possible the Pimbo area may get some further development. That Upholland isn't actually in Skelmersdale might be a planning challenge.

As both Skelmersdale and Upholland are parts of West Lancashire, would the administrative body for that area be happy to part-finance any rail projects in their administered area?

 

[MarkyT]

As both Skelmersdale and Upholland are parts of West Lancashire, would the administrative body for that area be happy to part-finance any rail projects in their administered area?

Lancashire, West Lancashire and Liverpool City Region among others have their emblems on the dead Rail Link business case document. I've no idea how funding would have related to that.

https://www.lancashire.gov.uk/media/926977/139606-mmd-rep-emf-000013-strategic-outline-business-case-summary-report.pdf

 

[Djgr]

Lancashire, West Lancashire and Liverpool City Region among others have their emblems on the dead Rail Link business case document. I've no idea how funding would have related to that.

https://www.lancashire.gov.uk/media/926977/139606-mmd-rep-emf-000013-strategic-outline-business-case-summary-report.pdf

The report seems very vague on where any funding would come from. However, it certainly would not have come from Liverpool City Region alone. And nor should it.

 

[daodao]

I hear a lot on this forum from people shouting down people who dare to dream. Isn't that really unhelpful, though? "Our economic system cannot deal with it, so stop thinking about it" is a really dystopian train of thought.

If something can't be done, don't terminate your thoughts about that thing or make excuses as to why you need to accept it; think about what needs to change for things to get better!

(This isn't intended as an attack on you, rather that I worry the thoughts you expressed tend to slide towards the above-mentioned train of thought over time, in my opinion)

My personal view is that there is a case for limited step-by-step passenger railway development in most of Britain's major conurbations.

For Merseyside, my number one suggestion would be a short extension of Merseyrail from Hunt's Cross to Gateacre with one intermediate stop, with a service from Gateacre to Headbolt Lane via central Liverpool run by battery class 777 emus every 15 minutes (30 minutes evenings/Sundays), extending alternately to Wigan Wallgate every 30 minutes (hourly evenings/Sundays). If there aren't enough battery class 777 emus, the core service every 15 minutes should just run from Hunt's Cross to Kirkby, so that some services can be run by electric only class 777 emus.

I would also electrify the ex-CLC line via Warrington Central using 25 kV AC as part of the national rail network (not Merseyrail) to allow 2 fast and 2 slow tph to run regularly between Lime Street and Manchester. Running stopping services using electric trains enables faster acceleration from stops so that they impede express trains to a lesser degree.

 

[frodshamfella]

For me, Merseyrail should extend over the Borderlands Line, I think it would be a good idea to extend from Headbolt Lane to Wigan. Hunts Cross to Gateacre and Widnes/ or to Warrington Cen, but no further east. A link between Southport and Preston has often been desired , perhaps a shuttle could operate between two via the Burscough Curve, with Liverpool to Ormskirk extended to Burscough for Preston connections . Of course something to the airport, this needs a better connection of some sort.

 

[Bletchleyite]

perhaps a shuttle could operate between two via the Burscough Curve, with Liverpool to Ormskirk extended to Burscough for Preston connections

This is my preference - reinstate both Curves and operate Southport-Preston hourly, Liverpool-Burscough Bridge 2 or 4tph and mothball the direct line. This would improve connectivity in West Lancashire no end, and avoid Merseyrail doing a very long Liverpool-Preston run with stock totally unsuited to it.

The other option is to build a Tamworth/Smethwick style Burscough Interchange/West Lancashire Parkway replacing Bridge where the lines cross (with a bay to terminate 3 out of 4 services per hour and one continue north), but that would probably end up needing Merseyrail to go to Preston which I really don't think sensible. They could have procured stock suitable for that, but the toiletless glorified trams they did procure definitely aren't. The upside of that option is that it might be possible to fund it via housing development as there's presently just fields there.

 

[frodshamfella]

This is my preference - reinstate both Curves and operate Southport-Preston hourly, Liverpool-Burscough Bridge 2 or 4tph and mothball the direct line. This would improve connectivity in West Lancashire no end, and avoid Merseyrail doing a very long Liverpool-Preston run with stock totally unsuited to it.

The other option is to build a Tamworth/Smethwick style Burscough Interchange/West Lancashire Parkway replacing Bridge where the lines cross (with a bay to terminate 3 out of 4 services per hour and one continue north), but that would probably end up needing Merseyrail to go to Preston which I really don't think sensible. They could have procured stock suitable for that, but the toiletless glorified trams they did procure definitely aren't. The upside of that option is that it might be possible to fund it via housing development as there's presently just fields there.

Yes I think using Burscough Bridge as an interchange would be just fine. I don't know the town well, but i'm sure I saw quite a bit of news housing last time I passed by, so certainly there would be more Liverpool commuter passengers around .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes I think using Burscough Bridge as an interchange would be just fine. I don't know the town well, but i'm sure I saw quite a bit of news housing last time I passed by, so certainly there would be more Liverpool commuter passengers around .

Burscough is rapidly edging towards being connected to Ormskirk creating a bit of an elongated conurbation. They don't quite meet yet, but within 20 years they probably will, a bit like Aughton has at the south end of Ormskirk since the 60s or thereabouts.

North of that is much more rural and unlikely to end up full of housing any time soon.

I think Merseyrail being extended there would cause very significant growth (and house price increase - Burscough is presently a bit cheaper than Ormskirk as it's not as well connected, but after any Merseyrail expansion it'd be connected to both Liverpool and Manchester, and thus potentially very desirable). Unlike further north it does still very much associate to Liverpool, though, with Scouse accents very prevalent.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For me, Merseyrail should extend over the Borderlands Line,

Wouldn't the Welsh Government have something to say on that matter, especially once the line section crosses the border and the subsequent run onwards to Wrexham.?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Wouldn't the Welsh Government have something to say on that matter, especially once the line section crosses the border and the subsequent run onwards to Wrexham.?

My understanding is that the Welsh Government would actually quite like this to happen.

 

[frodshamfella]

Wouldn't the Welsh Government have something to say on that matter, especially once the line section crosses the border and the subsequent run onwards to Wrexham.?

I'd imagine they'd say get on with its a cinderella service anyway

 

[Djgr]

Wouldn't the Welsh Government have something to say on that matter, especially once the line section crosses the border and the subsequent run onwards to Wrexham.?

And it also goes into and out of Cheshire