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Merseyrail Not Operating on Friday

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Bow Fell

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'Impassable' - you make it sound like it was 6ft deep out there. I looked out of the window near Capenhurst and there was a light dusting of wet snow. I think you may be over dramatising there.

Running a train over it would have cleared the tracks and 3rd rail easily.

It was obvious at 08:00 there wasn't an issue but still took until nearly midday to get things up and running. Really quite pathetic. Is this is what is expected now every time we get winter weather in winter?


When I say impassible, we’re not talking about heavy snow drifts here, don’t forget.

Heavy icing of the third rail was the issue.

I’m not asking you agree with me, by the way, I can understand and see the frustration, but you can also see why after having 11 units taken out of service last week with shoegear damage, units standed, train evacuated, numerous short formations as a result, that the weather forecast, in line with using forecasts for the conductor rail temperature, that Stadler/the TOC and Network Rail, had to make a decision, regarding the train service, in the end, whether that was the right one, well hindsight is a wonderful thing. I do know, that once the decision was made to run services, that a lot of hard work was done, to get everything back in place as quick as it did.
 
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So did Merseyside fall apart this morning because all the key workers couldn't get to work as there were no trains running?
 

Clip

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I don't think it matters if it was NR or ME, the whole thing is ridiculous and even more so that it took until midday to get the service up and running when it was obvious at 08:00 that there wasn't an issue

I given to believe that the Mayor of Liverpool City Region is quoted as saying that he believed Network Rail had issued a restriction of use order, if true then Merseyrail cannot be blamed in the slightest
But starmill has said there was some sort of service running before midday- you seem to have all the answers so go work for them and put in place your plans based on weather reports.

Would you have been happy if they left people stranded as trains got stranded between stations with no onward road transport? I very much doubt it.

They can't seem to win eh?
 

Bletchleyite

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Would you have been happy if they left people stranded as trains got stranded between stations with no onward road transport? I very much doubt it.

Actually, in a built up urban area, provided they evacuated promptly to a nearby station, this would be much less of an issue than elsewhere, as you can take a taxi, be picked up or whatever.

Other than the outer end of the Chester/Ellesmere Port line and a bit of a gap between Maghull North and Maghull pretty much all of Merseyrail is urban.
 

londonboi198o5

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Snow and ice can bring great difficulties to all transport (especially third rail) but preemptively cancelling all services because of a weather forecast and then the snow largely doesn't materialise isn't a good look to be honest.
Yes but then if they do run services and trains get stuck etc etc people are quick to complain and say "they shouldnt have ran services if the forecast was predicting bad weather" They are dammed if they do and dammed if they dont.
 

Clip

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Actually, in a built up urban area, provided they evacuated promptly to a nearby station, this would be much less of an issue than elsewhere, as you can take a taxi, be picked up or whatever.

Other than the outer end of the Chester/Ellesmere Port line and a bit of a gap between Maghull North and Maghull pretty much all of Merseyrail is urban.
But if the weather was that bad it stopped the trains from running then there's a very good chance it would be chaos on the roads also.

There's plenty of instances in history where 'urban' railways/metros haven't been able to work due to the weather.

So again I'll ask those who are moaning which would they prefer- a service that gets stranded with passengers on board or no service until they can assess its safe to run?
 

Starmill

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What I will say is that if anyone has a Season ticket for today, or a pre-booked ticket (even if in the event there wasn't any issue with the planned service), as they declared the day 'no service' in advance, Merseyrail really should probably be offering some kind of enhanced form of compensation, such as a pro-rated refund and a free day ticket for next time.
 

Skie

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Thursday night/Friday morning was forecast for light rain then snow and freezing temperatures. That is the worst possible combination of conditions, as it will wash off any antifreeze, freeze solid and then get a nice frozen layer of snow on top of it. It sets like concrete, with only hail before the snow being a worse combination. In the end, the weather didn't quite get that bad: It did rain and snow, but the temperature didn't drop too dramatically across the region, but it did freeze in some of the more rural locations. Because of that, you still have to clear the entire route (not just the bit by your house) to ensure a train doing 60mph doesn't suddenly hit a frozen bit of third rail and detach it's shoe gear or suffer a flashover.
 

HSTEd

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So how many times previously have conditions like this led to the complete suspension of Merseyrail?
 

Liverpool 507

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Actually, in a built up urban area, provided they evacuated promptly to a nearby station, this would be much less of an issue than elsewhere, as you can take a taxi, be picked up or whatever.

Other than the outer end of the Chester/Ellesmere Port line and a bit of a gap between Maghull North and Maghull pretty much all of Merseyrail is urban.

Rural sections between Hall Road - Hightown - Formby, as well as Freshfield - Ainsdale - Hillside tend to get very icy on the Southport line.

There have been numerous problems at Ainsdale in the past week with the third rail freezing over.

Don’t forget as well, Merseyrail trains do not have toilets onboard. Not ideal if stuck on a train up to four hours before evacuation. That is also a factor which probably lead to the decision of not running until it was clear what position the network was in.
 

Foxcote

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I moved to work on Merseyrail prior to the arrival of the 507/508’s. At that time, a private, paid for, very local weather forecast was received about 1000 each day, detailing the weather expected up to 0600. When the forecast gave indications that the deicing train could be required, local supervisors quickly made the decision to run it or not. If it was to run, a well used local plan agreed by staff LDC and management swung into action. (Wirral only, no Chester line.)

All staff, supervisors, drivers, guards, signallers, crossing keepers station staff and others were advised ASAP, many of whom were on early turn and would return for 0001 Or at their agreed times

The Birkenhead North early turn supervisor came back at 0001 and travelled on the deicing train, operating the taps on the tanks situated under seats so that the fluid fell onto the live rail He also refilled the tanks between trips from the supply on the depot.
The late turn supervisor filled buckets with deicing fluid and used a Turk’s head brush to apply liquid to the rail top on all depot sidings.
This task would take well over 3 hours working non-stop.
No isolation would be taken for this work and if any thick ice was found, it would be cleared by hitting or chipping it away with a steel tipped wooden bar. (Hickory?). Some isolation bar appliances were also steel tipped.

I never encountered a 503 that had any difficulty in starting in frosty weather. Unlike the 507/8’s their vital electrics were well protected.

On one very frosty/snowy day, I was called to attend at Hooton as the Helsby branch was blocked with snow and ice. I arranged for a crew to bring a diesel loco with a steam heating boiler from Mollington Street (8H)to Hooton. A hose was coupled up to the loco and points were blasted all along the line. I know it will be said that the points will ice up again, but at least we had over 30 mins to work at each location, then start again.. About 30 oil train movements per day"
 
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61653 HTAFC

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Some of the responses on this thread seem far less forgiving of the railway than this forum usually is. Could this be good old anti-Scouse bigotry rearing its head again I wonder? That never gets old! :rolleyes:

Actually, in a built up urban area, provided they evacuated promptly to a nearby station, this would be much less of an issue than elsewhere, as you can take a taxi, be picked up or whatever.

Other than the outer end of the Chester/Ellesmere Port line and a bit of a gap between Maghull North and Maghull pretty much all of Merseyrail is urban.
Aren't you a native of the Ormskirk area? Sure, it's hardly Blea Moor but to describe it as "urban" is quite a leap!
 
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Djgr

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The moral of the story appears to be: Don't make drastic over the top operational decisions solely on forecast because (and maybe this might be surprising) that which is predicted does not automatically come true.
 

philthetube

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Actually, in a built up urban area, provided they evacuated promptly to a nearby station, this would be much less of an issue than elsewhere, as you can take a taxi, be picked up or whatever.

Other than the outer end of the Chester/Ellesmere Port line and a bit of a gap between Maghull North and Maghull pretty much all of Merseyrail is urban.
Evacuating a train to ballast is never without risk, doing it in freezing weather, possibly with snow on the ground could be lethal.
 

londonboi198o5

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What I will say is that if anyone has a Season ticket for today, or a pre-booked ticket (even if in the event there wasn't any issue with the planned service), as they declared the day 'no service' in advance, Merseyrail really should probably be offering some kind of enhanced form of compensation, such as a pro-rated refund and a free day ticket for next time.
Wouldn’t they just be eligible for a refund of cost ??
 
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WatcherZero

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So Merseyrail have said their early morning icebreaker/test trains did indeed get stuck but by mid-morning it was fine and they were able to operate a service in the afternoon.
 

daodao

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Some of the responses on this thread seem far less forgiving of the railway than this forum usually is. Could this be good old anti-Scouse bigotry rearing its head again I wonder? That never gets old! :rolleyes:


Aren't you a native of the Ormskirk area? Sure, it's hardly Blea Moor but to describe it as "urban" is quite a leap!
Ormskirk itself is urban, but the section of the Ormskirk line between Maghull North and Town Green is predominantly rural, as is much of the Southport line between Hall Road and Ainsdale, other than the stretch through Formby.
 
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Pacef8

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Services from Birkenhead to chester off this morning . Rail replacement service in operation . I see someone is stuck in chester with a bike.
 

Bletchleyite

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Aren't you a native of the Ormskirk area? Sure, it's hardly Blea Moor but to describe it as "urban" is quite a leap!

It's certainly not the sort of rural that would require a considerable rescue mission once you had got people to the nearest road. It's also an area of very high (near 100% of homes) car ownership, which means that many people who did end up in that position would simply ring home for a lift. And the stations are about a mile apart, so it's not a long walk to reach one. Nor are there many places on Merseyrail with more than 2 tracks.

I've only ever been involved in a Merseyrail stranding once, and on that occasion (early 90s) people got out of the crew door, jumped the nearby fence and continued their journey on foot, while some of us opted to stay because it gave us a solid excuse to miss the first lesson. OK, in 2021 practice people can't be doing that, but it does mean a "proper" evacuation would have been very easy to arrange.
 

Starmill

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Wouldn’t they just be eligible for a refund of cost ??
If the customer made alternative arrangements because they saw Merseyrail's communication but then their train ran normally, without them on it, there's doubt about a refund. I was suggesting Merseyrail ought to have removed that doubt and proactively confirmed they'd offer a refund to any ticket valid the day in question. If the customer suffered significant inconvenience but isn't due any refund because their ticket is used (for example the customer booked Aigburth to London), Merseyrail should as a minimum offer a voucher for the cost of a new day ticket. I would also suggest Season ticket holders should be offered an extra day for free, should they wish.

In other words I was just pointing out that the charter and NRCoT offer pretty weak redress where disruption is very large, such as announcing no trains at all for a day, and that it might help if Merseyrail were more up front about some compensation.
 

Pacef8

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Hooton service off again after only two trains passed through. Someone needs sacking in maintenance
 

Bow Fell

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Power surges between Green Lane & Hooton, causing all signals to revert, track circuits to occupy and all points to flash out of correspondence. Was fixed but went again.
 

Liverpool 507

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Hooton service off again after only two trains passed through. Someone needs sacking in maintenance

I think you’ll find Network Rail own and maintain the infrastructure, not Merseyrail.

What can you do? Track defects, power surges, broken rails etc happen.
 

NorthernSpirit

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It's nothing unusual to keep trains running through the night for frost protection and it's one of the absolute basics to send engineering trains out in this weather.

I get the impression they just don't like running trains, and Merseytravel who get paid a fortune to oversee this contract have for many years become utterly inept - time for the operator's contract to end, and the many useless, expensive 'Qango' PTE's across the UK to shut, and be reformed into far smaller organisations.

I'd go as far as to suggest pushing Merseyrail into Northern, given the current costs compared with what we actually get for our money.
Nice to know that I'm not the only one who wants to see the end of Combined Authorities and their former operations as Passenger Transport Executives. They are a waste of money who do enjoy wasting vast sums of cash on vanity schemes that don't really benefit the majority of the area they serve. In West Yorkshire, WYCA who trade as Metro, seemily prefers to build cycleways here, there and everywhere rather than properly fund the more rural and "MetroConnect" semi-urban bus services and don't get me started on rebuidling Halifax bus station.

I dread to think on how, if they had the chance to, run the MetroTrain network.
 

185

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Nice to know that I'm not the only one who wants to see the end of Combined Authorities and their former operations as Passenger Transport Executives. They are a waste of money who do enjoy wasting vast sums of cash on vanity schemes that don't really benefit the majority of the area they serve. In West Yorkshire, WYCA who trade as Metro, seemily prefers to build cycleways here, there and everywhere rather than properly fund...

The cycleways are small change, and their introduction & management should be solely a council matter under the roads budget. My bigger issue with PTEs is the high number of non-jobs 'officers','consultants' and 'execs', all on over £75000 who don't actually do anything, whilst we hear on press releases "we are no longer able to fund these socially necessary services" - these PTEs have needed to go for 10-15 years now, and the current financial situation hastens the urgency.

Bothers me greatly, that Merseytravel's Councillor Chairman is by day a Network Rail manager. Major conflict of interest demonstrated by this thread.
 
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