• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Midlands Connect case for direct trains between Coventry, Leicester and Nottingham

Status
Not open for further replies.

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
20,531
Location
Airedale
I'd be interested to know why the chord UNDER the WCML is being reinstated. Lines from both Leicester and Coventry descend into Nuneaton station, so would it not make more sense to have a bridge over the WCML
AIUI the underbridge is still there, and I presume the gradients were manageable in the past.
Interesting point but was there 'ever' (in the heyday of railways) a direct service between the two to build a market?
Not that I know of, and certainly not in the 1958 timetable. There was only a handful of Leicester trains from Nuneaton TV anyway, as the ex MR Abbey St was still open, and none used the direct spur from Coventry.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

alistairlees

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2016
Messages
4,042
Interesting point but was there 'ever' (in the heyday of railways) a direct service between the two to build a market? (I am not talking about the short-lived through service via a Nuneaton more recently.)

I have connections in both Leicester and Coventry and frequently visit(ed) both cities but they never seem to have much to do with each other. Both are of the awkward size that hasn't justified suburban rail networks or metros with indifferently positioned main stations.

Not quite 'perfect' really.
I don't know if there was an historic direct service, but it doesn't really matter - cities, populations and travel patterns have developed out of all recognition since the 1960s (or before).

Your other point is anecdotal, and I'm not really sure what the lack of a metro has to do with it (other cities without metros are connected by train services). The key points remain: combined (city, not conurbation) population of just under 700k; 26 miles apart in a straight line; car journey time from 35 to 55 minutes on a typical weekday morning (according to Google). Why wouldn't this be a target market for rail, as part of a rail strategy (or plan)?

One of the best Motorways in the land, as it is rarely anything other than empty. But it was part of a bigger plan, effectively extended north and south as the A46.

In terms of rail commuting - as one of the few people on this thread who has commuted Leicester - Coventry (albeit as part of a longer commute) ... I never failed to get a seat at peak time, and the train was only ever approaching full on Friday evenings at holiday times. There just isn’t the market.
Was the train service you travelled on between Leicester and Coventry:
- slow?
- poor quality?
- infrequent?
- unreliable?
- poorly marketed?

Is it plausible that these factors, rather than lack of demand, were the cause of the low passenger numbers?
 

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
8,844
Location
SE London
Your other point is anecdotal, and I'm not really sure what the lack of a metro has to do with it (other cities without metros are connected by train services). The key points remain: combined (city, not conurbation) population of just under 700k; 26 miles apart in a straight line; car journey time from 35 to 55 minutes on a typical weekday morning (according to Google). Why wouldn't this be a target market for rail, as part of a rail strategy (or plan)?

I think the point about lack of metro is that not having a metro significantly reduces the market for a direct train: If you live on the outskirts of Coventry and you want to get to the outskirts of Leicester, then the chances are that - even with a direct train - you'd probably be looking at a (slow) bus to Coventry station, then a train, then a (slow) bus to wherever in Leicester you want to go. That's not an appealing prospect if the car takes under an hour. Effectively, a direct train will mainly only be useful to people who are travelling city-centre to city-centre (plus a few people who are making connections as part of much longer journeys). On the other hand, if Coventry and Leicester both had decent suburban rail networks/a metro, then a direct service between the two cities would be useful to a much larger proportion of the populations of each city.
 

city dweller

Member
Joined
17 Apr 2019
Messages
102
Coventry - Leicester link gives half an hour saving on Nottingham trips also.
midlands-rail-hub-benefits-table-for-linkedin.jpg
 
Last edited:

Nottingham59

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2019
Messages
2,594
Location
Nottingham
more sense to have a bridge over the WCML
Looking at old OS maps, it seems that the original chord was built to go under the WCML. I don't know the lie of the land there, but since the old trackbed is still available, I can't imagine that any other configuration would be easier.

1622530203705.png
Though I notice that the chord was originally single track. Let's hope that if they go to the trouble of digging up the WCML, then they make the dive-under twin track.
 

nuneatonmark

Member
Joined
5 Aug 2014
Messages
483
Looking at old OS maps, it seems that the original chord was built to go under the WCML. I don't know the lie of the land there, but since the old trackbed is still available, I can't imagine that any other configuration would be easier.

View attachment 97348
Though I notice that the chord was originally single track. Let's hope that if they go to the trouble of digging up the WCML, then they make the dive-under twin track.
The original chord under the WCML used to regularly flood which might cause some issues given the river Anker is almost next to it!
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
32,002
Was the train service you travelled on between Leicester and Coventry:
- slow?
- poor quality?
- infrequent?
- unreliable?
- poorly marketed?

It was non stop Leicester - Nuneaton and Nuneaton-Coventry.
Quality was as good as any regional train at the time.
Frequency - hourly, more on the peak.
Reliability - as good as any regional train at the time (IIRC, rather better).
Marketing. I don’t know!
 

wallan

Member
Joined
27 May 2020
Messages
92
Location
Bedworth
Many years ago, when there was for few years an hourly train from Nottingham to Coventry, I used it quite regularly to connect with Cross Country trains to the South Coast. Quite a few people from Nottingham and Leicester used to change at Coventry for Oxford, Reading, Southampton etc as if there was a good connection it saved quite a bit of time compared to via Birmingham. In those days, of course, there were only about 3 through trains a day from Derby to the South Coast so changing at Coventry also enabled travel on trains originating from Birmingham and Manchester.
That is why the service was introduced , to reduce the time between leicester & The South Coast
The service will not be well used , why , Coventry OAP,s along with other West Midland OAP,s have Free Rail Travel within the West Midlands , they are not going to pay to use a Rail Service
 

Nottingham59

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2019
Messages
2,594
Location
Nottingham
The original chord under the WCML used to regularly flood which might cause some issues given the river Anker is almost next to it!
Oh dear. That's unfortunate! And a modern bridge will require more clearance than previously to give space for W12 loading guage and possible future electrification. But no doubt Midland Connect thought of all that and their plans include flood defences too .....
 

alistairlees

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2016
Messages
4,042
It was non stop Leicester - Nuneaton and Nuneaton-Coventry.
Quality was as good as any regional train at the time.
Frequency - hourly, more on the peak.
Reliability - as good as any regional train at the time (IIRC, rather better).
Marketing. I don’t know!
Thanks. What year were you doing this?
 

Bonemaster

Member
Joined
16 Jan 2006
Messages
323
Location
Coventry
1993. Arley tunnel closure.

That was only temporary for around 8 months or so whilst major work was done on the tunnel, not a service that would have led somebody to take a job, move house, or given up a car to take advantage of.

A service existed that called at all stops between Nottingham and Coventry via Leicester but was subject to a sizable time penalty with a reversal at Nuneaton, until Nuneaton was remodelled as part of the WCRM. Even these services were well used at the time. I know several people who have attempted the commute between Leicester and Coventry by rail all have since abandoned due to the reliability issues with the change at Nuneaton, and the relative speed of the M69.

As a commuter between the two cities, with such a good road connection between them, journey time will always be a factor in how much demand can be taken from cars. Any journey over 45 minutes will struggle to make a dent.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
32,002
That was only temporary for around 8 months or so whilst major work was done on the tunnel, not a service that would have led somebody to take a job, move house, or given up a car to take advantage of.

Indeed, but... it meant that I (and other passengers) trying to get to Birmingham got to see how busy the Leicester to Coventry services were. And the answer is “not very”, even given that most people were actually trying to get to Birmingham.
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
17,562
As a commuter between the two cities, with such a good road connection between them, journey time will always be a factor in how much demand can be taken from cars. Any journey over 45 minutes will struggle to make a dent.
Whereupon the proposed service is going to have to knock some stops out I suspect. Leicester Nuneaton all shacks is 26 minutes now, Nuneaton Coventry is 19, already at the 45 minute mark.
 

RyanOPlasty

Member
Joined
9 Feb 2020
Messages
102
Location
Nuneaton
Oh dear. That's unfortunate! And a modern bridge will require more clearance than previously to give space for W12 loading guage and possible future electrification. But no doubt Midland Connect thought of all that and their plans include flood defences too .....

Hence why I queried whether abridge would be a better solution. just because there is a ( long disused) trackbed there does not mean it is appropriate for a new line.
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,899
Location
Torbay
Looking at old OS maps, it seems that the original chord was built to go under the WCML. I don't know the lie of the land there, but since the old trackbed is still available, I can't imagine that any other configuration would be easier.
...
Though I notice that the chord was originally single track. Let's hope that if they go to the trouble of digging up the WCML, then they make the dive-under twin track.
This NLS OS map suggests double track, but already disconnected at the Coventry end of the chord by the early 1920s
 

bunnahabhain

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
2,156
Surely the best solution has to be an improved frequency on Nuneaton to Coventry/Leamington with decent 5-10min connections at Nuneaton.
 

Glenn1969

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2019
Messages
1,983
Location
Halifax, Yorks
This is Midlands Connect/Engine. It's a wishlist like the TFN one for the North

Will any of it be funded? Guess we are still waiting for the Integrated Rail Plan to find out. So when will it ever appear ?
 

gg1

Established Member
Joined
2 Jun 2011
Messages
2,222
Location
Birmingham
The M69 predates the M42/A42 and used to handle all the traffic from the Birmingham and the M5, to the North East.

No it didn't, the main pre M42 route from Birmingham to Yorkshire and the North East was via the A38, joining the M1 at Mansfield.
 

Jurg

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2017
Messages
208
But that would add 20 minutes to journey times between the population centres. We'll just have to see how the business case develops.
It would be pretty poor for the new service to travel through the largest town in Warwickshire without stopping.

As a minimum I would suggest the service should stop at Bermuda Park, which is at least in Nuneaton. This would allow easy 'same platform' interchanges for passengers using the stopping services from Bedworth, Coventry Arena, Kenilworth and Leamington. The imminent Bermuda Connectivity scheme may also eventually lead to improved bus interchanges for Bermuda Park station.

Not a perfect solution for everyone, but surely the benefits of serving a significant urban area would outweigh the slight impact on the overall journey time.
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
17,562
It would be pretty poor for the new service to travel through the largest town in Warwickshire without stopping.

As a minimum I would suggest the service should stop at Bermuda Park, which is at least in Nuneaton. This would allow easy 'same platform' interchanges for passengers using the stopping services from Bedworth, Coventry Arena, Kenilworth and Leamington. The imminent Bermuda Connectivity scheme may also eventually lead to improved bus interchanges for Bermuda Park station.

Not a perfect solution for everyone, but surely the benefits of serving a significant urban area would outweigh the slight impact on the overall journey time.
Not sure that would work, people would just wait until the next train that goes to Nuneaton from Coventry itself and not use the Leicester train. I wouldn't want to hang around Bermuda Park any longer than necessary anyway!
 

Jurg

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2017
Messages
208
Not sure that would work, people would just wait until the next train that goes to Nuneaton from Coventry itself and not use the Leicester train. I wouldn't want to hang around Bermuda Park any longer than necessary anyway!
For most it would probably depend on the connection times and what their itinerary shows, but for example I have many times arrived into Nuneaton from Leicester and literally had to run from Platform 6 to Platform 1 to connect to the Coventry train to get to Arena. I know which I'd prefer.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
26,609
Location
Nottingham
For most it would probably depend on the connection times and what their itinerary shows, but for example I have many times arrived into Nuneaton from Leicester and literally had to run from Platform 6 to Platform 1 to connect to the Coventry train to get to Arena. I know which I'd prefer.
Since there's no way of trains overtaking each other between Nuneaton and Coventry, anyone heading from Coventry to Nuneaton on a Leicester train and changing at Bermuda Park will just board the same train they could have boarded if they'd waited a bit longer at Coventry. In the other direction they would just arrive later. The only benefit is for people going between the other intermediate stops and stations east of Nuneaton, who are likely to be few.
 

jfowkes

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2017
Messages
1,109
I imagine a big reason for not calling at Nuneaton is avoiding crossing the WCML on the flat?

<Rest of original post deleted due to it being stupid>
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
17,562
I imagine a big reason for not calling at Nuneaton is avoiding crossing the WCML on the flat?

<Rest of original post deleted due to it being stupid>
You cannot cross on the flat. There is no way of getting from P1 or 2 at Nuneaton across the job and P1 and 2 at Nuneaton are the only ones accessible from Cov. The only platform that can get to/from Leicester on the WCML is P5.
 

Jurg

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2017
Messages
208
Since there's no way of trains overtaking each other between Nuneaton and Coventry, anyone heading from Coventry to Nuneaton on a Leicester train and changing at Bermuda Park will just board the same train they could have boarded if they'd waited a bit longer at Coventry. In the other direction they would just arrive later. The only benefit is for people going between the other intermediate stops and stations east of Nuneaton, who are likely to be few.
I never suggested that anyone would want to board at Coventry then change at Bermuda. Clearly that would be pointless. And yes, by definition, adding intermediate stops generally just benefits passengers using intermediate stations. My point remains that I think it would add to the business case to stop at Bermuda Park.
 

Roast Veg

Established Member
Joined
28 Oct 2016
Messages
2,247
I made a few trips between Leicester and Oxford that would have been made much faster with one change at Coventry as opposed to one at New Street - or indeed two changes at Coventry and Nuneaton as one journey planner had me on.
 

Wyrleybart

Established Member
Joined
29 Mar 2020
Messages
1,930
Location
South Staffordshire
All of which is fine, but doesn't demonstrate a regular demand for travel between Nottingham / Leicester and Coventry - you were simply using that as the connection point for a much longer journey in preference to travelling via Birmingham. If that connection had been elsewhere you would have used that, it wasn't about Coventry as a destination.

It also depends *where* on the south coast you're heading to - it does, after all include Kent and Sussex as well as Hampshire & Dorset - and the East Mids now has *far* better connectivity to those the first two by virtue of changing at St Pancras to either HS1 or Thameslink (TL) - which since the rebuild of St P is no distance at all because the TL platforms are right below the East Mids ones.
There are a series of educational establishments between Coventry and Nottingham which I would have thought are relevant - dependant on whether the industry want's to go after young people travelling to and from. It would also be beneficial to have a good local bus service linking the Unis, Colleges and Polys to the statons.

I also imagine there will be hundreds of new houses being built across N Warks and Leics
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top