Misuse of Spouse travel Pass

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for the link

I have tried to ring as much as I can
But none of them can see me before Monday which is the displianary hearing
Only got till tomorrow to decide on what to do

OK - maybe some of the advice on hear can help you prepare for Monday hearing? Or do you have the right to ask for it to be deferred from Monday to a later date in order to allow you to seek adequate help and representation at the hearing?

EDIT:
EG - can you prep the stuff in post #80 ahead of that hearing? That was good advice

 

[Titfield]

Thanks for the link

I have tried to ring as much as I can
But none of them can see me before Monday which is the displianary hearing
Only got till tomorrow to decide on what to do

May I suggest that you ask for the disciplinary hearing to be adjourned (postponed) to allow you time to obtain legal advice (citing the problems caused by COVID 19).

You could ask your union rep to endorse (support this) on the grounds that they are not able to provide the representation you have sought.

Anyone has the right to seek the level of advice and guidance appropriate. Given that dismissal is a possibility, it would be unfair not to allow you time to seek this advice indeed if they proceeded you could have good grounds to appeal based on this alone.

 

[MissPWay]

Thank for all your advice guys.

to be honest where ever have turned to hasn’t helped on this case.

my union hq were only advicing resigning is my option to take but they all not sounding convincing trying to fight this will yield results

they not sounding like building up a good defence for me but only seeing the charges I am facing with no one considering my circumstances and with that try to help me build a defence case.

which is why I really can’t decide on what step to take because there no one sounding like they can fight this for me within the union even though yes! This happened but my circumstances were way above me which has led to this


This was actually the case!

I bought the car she was using, she got me restricted using my car so she decide to get a car of her own before I can take mine but couldn’t drive the long distance journey so I help to go with her so I can collect my own car back and I can use it to commute to work... we only met up along the way to the destination as well we didn’t start or end a train journey together

If things genuinely are that bleak then remember resignation before clause 9 means you have a better chance of railway employment in the future. (Although not impossible with a clause9)

This is a genuine and kindly meant question, but assuming you’re a fully paid up member of the union, you haven’t been “across,” your local reps so to speak?

I know it shouldn’t make a difference, but I’ve known cases where 30+ year members have been badmouthing the local reps vociferously and publicly, then they have an incident and well, you can guess the rest.

Because unless there’s something you’re not telling us, it doesn’t sound like the Union is going out to bat for you on this.

 

[ukkid]

Thanks for the link

I have tried to ring as much as I can
But none of them can see me before Monday which is the displianary hearing
Only got till tomorrow to decide on what to do

Try and get the hearing rescheduled.

 

[Hanson]

If things genuinely are that bleak then remember resignation before clause 9 means you have a better chance of railway employment in the future. (Although not impossible with a clause9)

This is a genuine and kindly meant question, but assuming you’re a fully paid up member of the union, you haven’t been “across,” your local reps so to speak?

I know it shouldn’t make a difference, but I’ve known cases where 30+ year members have been badmouthing the local reps vociferously and publicly, then they have an incident and well, you can guess the rest.

Because unless there’s something you’re not telling us, it doesn’t sound like the Union is going out to bat for you on this.

I have never had any issue or bad mouthed any union rep...
But the truth is I feel like the rep seeing all the charges is skeptical and feel like he can argue to win the case for me, even though I have honestly said al that transpired in within me and my spouse

I have said it all, not kept anything hidden, all is plain and true

the union is only looking for lapse in the case to hold on to but not focusing on fighting for he case based on circumstances Surrounding it and all grounds, he only focused on the charges which he is on the side of the company that I didn’t do enough to stop the missuse happening...
in my Situation a pass wasn’t my main concern which I stated but still they charging me for a gross misconduct

and I can find anyone to build a strong case of defence for me which means I don’t want to risk going for the hearing and not come out positive
If you get what I mean
Cause I’m limited to getting any help

 

[Titfield]

I strongly suggest that you follow the advice given by me and others and ask for an adjournment (postponement) immediately.

You need time to get help to build your defence to the case that has been laid out against you.

A quick search on google shows that it is basic principle of a fair disciplinary hearing that you are given time to prepare which includes seeking and obtaining legal advice.

Given the issues with COVID 19 it is not unreasonable to ask for more time.

 

[LCC106]

Just wanted to stress that a finding of gross misconduct doesn’t automatically mean dismissal. As has been said before, if they DO find you have committed GM then one of the outcomes MAY be a final written warning. Don’t make any hasty decisions to resign.

 

[Hanson]

Just wanted to stress that a finding of gross misconduct doesn’t automatically mean dismissal. As has been said before, if they DO find you have committed GM then one of the outcomes MAY be a final written warning. Don’t make any hasty decisions to resign.

Ok. But it seems my best option here is to find a good solicitor can help and I will try to adjourn the hearing to have enough time to get this.

I know a solicitor can stand for me at the hearing so at what point do they come in to help defend the case for me

 

[Haywain]

It seems to me that the union have assessed the situation and given an honest appraisal of what the result of the hearing will be, and correctly stated that they need to concentrate on the process having been followed correctly. It is because it may not have been that I advised against resigning, and I stick by that. I'm afraid that I don't see an adjournment happening and the company will likely argue that you have known about thew situation for long enough to get advice and prepare for the hearing. As stated, you will not be able to take a solicitor to the hearing, only a union rep can speak on your behalf, and it is likely this will be about expressing remorse and regret and appealing for a punishment short of dismissal to be applied, if they are unable to find fault with the paperwork and process.

And I would stress that my experience is from the management side rather than as a union rep.

 

[Tallguy]

Any union that advised you to resign isn’t much of a union in my book. If the union isn’t prepared to go into battle for you then they are effectively useless, unless there is something else in this case you haven’t disclosed to us.

Others have suggested asking for a postponement so you can get further advice but some have commented that is unlikely to be granted. Earlier in this thread a poster mentioned the name of a firm of Lawyers that some of the rail unions had used in the past. As that firm is likely to have specific rail experience I suggest giving them A call ASAP and engaging them to provide advice which can be done over the phone/Zoom.

If you resign you have no comeback. If your employment is terminated (which it may not be) then at least you can think about an appeal or an employment tribunal.

Good luck and please let us know how things go. Please PM me if you want the name of the Lawyers I used 16 months ago but as I previously stated, they are not rail industry specialists and I would suggest contacting the firm that are named earlier in this thread who have relevant industry experience.

 

[Titfield]

Any union that advised you to resign isn’t much of a union in my book. If the union isn’t prepared to go into battle for you then they are effectively useless, unless there is something else in this case you haven’t disclosed to us.

I surmise - but self evidently have no proof - that the union rep has assessed the prospects of success and decided that the best approach is damage limitation ie resign rather than have "being dismissed" on the employees record.

We are uncertain as to how much experience the union rep has of representing employees in these circumstances so cant assess the appropriateness of this approach. We also do not know how this employer has acted in similar circumstances though we must always be aware that every case is unique and turns on its facts.

The OP has been given conflicting advice as to the best way forward and it is up to them to decide. However I would reiterate TallGuys point that resignation has no comeback whereas employment termination has to allow for an appeal and after that the statutory process of an Employment Tribunal.

 

[LCC106]

Yep. I have sat in an employment tribunal (not my own) where we were all so sure the judge would find in one person’s favour and he found in the other person’s favour. What I’m trying to say is you may have the best union rep in the world but they will never know what decision the person will make on the day so I reiterate as others have said that should the worst happen you at least have the right to appeal.

 

[Titfield]

I am not sure that the employer or indeed ATOC would want a misuse of privilege card to go to an Employment Tribunal. Whilst ET Decisions do not set legal precedents nevertheless they do provide an indication of how a set of circumstances were viewed. The idea / concept that an employee can be held legally responsible for a third parties actions in respect of a priv card to the extent they could lose their jobs seems to me to be disproportionate.

 

[WesternLancer]

Any union that advised you to resign isn’t much of a union in my book. If the union isn’t prepared to go into battle for you then they are effectively useless, unless there is something else in this case you haven’t disclosed to us.

Others have suggested asking for a postponement so you can get further advice but some have commented that is unlikely to be granted. Earlier in this thread a poster mentioned the name of a firm of Lawyers that some of the rail unions had used in the past. As that firm is likely to have specific rail experience I suggest giving them A call ASAP and engaging them to provide advice which can be done over the phone/Zoom.

If you resign you have no comeback. If your employment is terminated (which it may not be) then at least you can think about an appeal or an employment tribunal.

Good luck and please let us know how things go. Please PM me if you want the name of the Lawyers I used 16 months ago but as I previously stated, they are not rail industry specialists and I would suggest contacting the firm that are named earlier in this thread who have relevant industry experience.

Yes, OP should ring Thompsons - who do legal work for lots of unions

Thompsons Trade Union Solicitors | Standing Up For You

We are the UK's most experienced trade union law firm, providing expert legal advice and representation to members who have been mistreated or injured.

www.thompsonstradeunion.law

But may need to be prepared for them to say they only take on cases referred on by a union rep or union official - when I had dealings with them this was the case - they did not take on work directly from public or union members requests - but that may have changed and they may do initial free help these days - so worth a call - I see they have a free phone number on that link.

So OP may want to PM you given your offer.

I am not sure that the employer or indeed ATOC would want a misuse of privilege card to go to an Employment Tribunal. Whilst ET Decisions do not set legal precedents nevertheless they do provide an indication of how a set of circumstances were viewed. The idea / concept that an employee can be held legally responsible for a third parties actions in respect of a priv card to the extent they could lose their jobs seems to me to be disproportionate.

Point well made IMHO

 

[Realfish]

If you resign you have no comeback. If your employment is terminated (which it may not be) then at least you can think about an appeal or an employment tribunal

This is an important observation. If the TOC find that you are 'guilty' of gross misconduct, dismissal is only one of the range of responses available to them, so you may have resigned unnecessarily; a warning, written warning, or a final written warning might also be appropriate in the circumstances - and remember even if proven, the hearing must hear and consider mitigation, including your previous employment record which you would put to them (hopefully as an exemplary employee). If it does come to the worst, your disciplinary policies allow for an appeal, and with that, I would hope that the union would escalate the matter in support of you, including to their own legal advisers, who in the very worst case would advise in the case you took the matter to an employment tribunal.

Looking at the attachments, it seems to me that the investigation / fact-find's conclusion that this may be a case of gross misconduct, appear rather thin. Is it an assumption that you have taken no responsibly or checked that the pass is being used correctly, or is it something you have admitted? And how are you expected to check, as a matter of interest? Have an annual review with your wife and get her to sign a declaration?

It may be of no comfort, but this is an interesting issue. Whilst in the course of normal relationships, partners will understand their rights and responsibilities in relation to benefits of this kind, not all relationship run smoothly and not all partners are honest. I do ask therefore, in this day and age of equality, what is the extent to which a husband can be 'legally' or otherwise, held responsible for the improper actions of his spose, unless of course you were party to the action? If TOC's need an assurance that passes are being properly used, perhaps THEY should obtain signed written confirmation from the beneficiaries, each year.

Good luck.

 

[theironroad]

If you resign, that's it, game over.

Go to the hearing and (I assume you are taking a rep or someone in with you) and state your case.

If the decision goes against you, then appeal.

That's two chances of keeping your job rather than zero if you resign.

Worse case scenario, and not a worse case really. If you've got a good safety record then apply to a FOC or even for on track machines etc.

If there's a good explanation made at application/nterview you may well get a job. It's not unheard of.

 

[Hanson]

This is an important observation. If the TOC find that you are 'guilty' of gross misconduct, dismissal is only one of the range of responses available to them, so you may have resigned unnecessarily; a warning, written warning, or a final written warning might also be appropriate in the circumstances - and remember even if proven, the hearing must hear and consider mitigation, including your previous employment record which you would put to them (hopefully as an exemplary employee). If it does come to the worst, your disciplinary policies allow for an appeal, and with that, I would hope that the union would escalate the matter in support of you, including to their own legal advisers, who in the very worst case would advise in the case you took the matter to an employment tribunal.

Looking at the attachments, it seems to me that the investigation / fact-find's conclusion that this may be a case of gross misconduct, appear rather thin. Is it an assumption that you have taken no responsibly or checked that the pass is being used correctly, or is it something you have admitted? And how are you expected to check, as a matter of interest? Have an annual review with your wife and get her to sign a declaration?

It may be of no comfort, but this is an interesting issue. Whilst in the course of normal relationships, partners will understand their rights and responsibilities in relation to benefits of this kind, not all relationship run smoothly and not all partners are honest. I do ask therefore, in this day and age of equality, what is the extent to which a husband can be 'legally' or otherwise, held responsible for the improper actions of his spose, unless of course you were party to the action? If TOC's need an assurance that passes are being properly used, perhaps THEY should obtain signed written confirmation from the beneficiaries, each year.

Good luck.

This is exactly how I see my circumstances surrounding my marriage which led to all this, but my union rep just keep saying it’s nothing to do with my spouse using the pass it about me breaking the policies ... but he’s not considering the circumstances I was in

The spouse is now looking to pay back all the cost and hopefully settle out of court as I don’t know if this would lead to a criminal record if convicted for missuse of spouse pass!

 

[MotCO]

I must preface my comments by saying that I am neither in the industry, nor a lawyer.

It may be of no comfort, but this is an interesting issue. Whilst in the course of normal relationships, partners will understand their rights and responsibilities in relation to benefits of this kind, not all relationship run smoothly and not all partners are honest. I do ask therefore, in this day and age of equality, what is the extent to which a husband can be 'legally' or otherwise, held responsible for the improper actions of his spose, unless of course you were party to the action? If TOC's need an assurance that passes are being properly used, perhaps THEY should obtain signed written confirmation from the beneficiaries, each year.

However, I do agree with the sentiments of Realfish, and I wonder if your preparation for the hearing on Monday should centre on setting out the state of your marriage, what sort of contact did you have with your wife, and also if she was aware as to the conditions for using the spouse pass. It should not be a sob story, but the facts and some good examples (evidenced if possible) of how bad it was should be given. This should lead to the conclusion that you did not know what your wife was doing (and if you did, you would have stopped the misuse), and that you were not in a position to personally oversee or question the use of the pass. You might still be found to be in breach of the terms and conditions, but there could be enough mitigation to reduce the punishment.

You may find it difficult to present your side of the story at the hearing, and this is where your representative, whether friend or union rep, should be someone who can articulate well.

Good luck.

 

[[.n]]

You may also wish to check to see if your home insurance includes legal cover.

I would certainly be asking for a postponement on the grounds you need time to get proper advice.

I'm still confused as to whether or not you've actually spoken to anyone in your union other than the local rep - please try a regional or national rep, their details will be on the relevant website, at the very least I expect them to help you prepare for the hearing

Lastly, based on what you've said, good luck in achieving the best outcome you can, it sound like a horrible situation to be in

 

[philthetube]

Definatly don't resign, I still would not expect you to be sacked, think about it from the company veiwpoint.

Will you do it again?
Would sacking you deter others more than that which you have already been through?
How much would it cost to train your replacement?
Can we spare you in these covid days with no training going on?
Are we sure that we would win at tribunal?

I imagine that the answers to all these questions will fall on your side.

One bit of advice I would give is to keep quiet if you think things are going well.

I don't have numbers but for more come back from these hearings with jobs than without.

Good luck.

 

[Haywain]

This is exactly how I see my circumstances surrounding my marriage which led to all this, but my union rep just keep saying it’s nothing to do with my spouse using the pass it about me breaking the policies ... but he’s not considering the circumstances I was in

I’m afraid the problem here looks to be that your rep is not saying what you want to hear. His job is to represent you but you need to trust him to do the best job he can in very unfavourable circumstances. He* doesn’t think you’ve got a good defence case and I am inclined to agree, and in these circumstances he will need to use all his experience to try and derail the management case by finding fault with the procedural parts of it.

* Whoever represents you in the hearing.

 

[Llanigraham]

I must preface my comments by saying that I am neither in the industry, nor a lawyer.



However, I do agree with the sentiments of Realfish, and I wonder if your preparation for the hearing on Monday should centre on setting out the state of your marriage, what sort of contact did you have with your wife, and also if she was aware as to the conditions for using the spouse pass. It should not be a sob story, but the facts and some good examples (evidenced if possible) of how bad it was should be given. This should lead to the conclusion that you did not know what your wife was doing (and if you did, you would have stopped the misuse), and that you were not in a position to personally oversee or question the use of the pass. You might still be found to be in breach of the terms and conditions, but there could be enough mitigation to reduce the punishment.

You may find it difficult to present your side of the story at the hearing, and this is where your representative, whether friend or union rep, should be someone who can articulate well.

Good luck.

My understanding, and from personnel experience, is that your "friend" is not entitled to speak for you, but can only advise you. And you can ask for time to consult with your "friend" at any time, and in private.

 

[clagmonster]

Just thinking out loud but would a statement from your estranged partner, if they are willing to give one, stating that you made them aware that pass could not be used for commuting and that you were not aware of the misuse be of any use?

Similarly, statements from any friends you may have stayed with who can confirm the relationship difficulties.

 

[CyrusWuff]

My understanding, and from personnel experience, is that your "friend" is not entitled to speak for you, but can only advise you. And you can ask for time to consult with your "friend" at any time, and in private.

You may be getting confused with a "McKenzie friend", who can assist a litigant in person in Court proceedings but not address the bench themselves.

The ACAS Code of Practice on Disciplinaries and Grievances states that the "companion" (be that a colleague, Union rep, or full-time Union official) is entitled to address the hearing. What they can't do is answer questions that are put directly to the employee, prevent the employer from explaining their case, or address the hearing if the worker doesn't want them to.

 

[357]

I'm reading the above and have a couple of thoughts.

1. Don't resign. That makes you look guilty and makes the company have an easy life. If you are innocent, fight !

2. Your local rep seems to be one of the type I have been familiar with in previous years, seeing things from management POV too much, and only takes on easy cases so he can brag about winning every case.

3. Someone had a very good point, would it not be more productive to have the dependent sign to say they understand the restrictions of these passes, instead of expecting an employee to do so in a way that if taken to tribunal would be viewed in a very dim light.

You talk about others making a defence for you. Why don't you take this weekend to make your own? For my investigation, I picked an absolutely fantastic rep to go with me, even though she was from a ticket office. Working as a team was great though, because she knew all the HR policy, and I knew all the operational policy. I wrote the defence and she added her parts about HR policy.

Dismissal is one of a large range of options available to them - and one that is rarely used. My charges were all dropped in the disciplinary hearing after I stated my defence as it became apparent there was no evidence.

Outcomes available are, with likelihood in my opinion in brackets (multiple options could happen, eg written warning and removal of passes);

• No further action (highly unlikely)
• Informal conversation (highly unlikely)
• Passes removed from you/dependants (unlikely, but possible. In this situation I would expect you to still be permitted to travel to and from work, and whilst at work, for free)
• Passes removed from dependants (probable)
• Letter of advice (unlikely)
• Suitable letter of advice (likely)
• Written warning (highly likely)
• Final written warning (possible, but would be harsh)
• Dismissal (highly unlikely)

 

[Hanson]

Just thinking out loud but would a statement from your estranged partner, if they are willing to give one, stating that you made them aware that pass could not be used for commuting and that you were not aware of the misuse be of any use?

Similarly, statements from any friends you may have stayed with who can confirm the relationship difficulties.

I have told my rep about getting this statements but he’s response was that the company know about that already from my investigative statement as I did mention all that to them but them looking to get rid of me is what they will focus on doing because of all the policies they have stated that I came short of and didn’t abide by ... just don’t understand what he’s driving by, reading by he’s lines of word , he already saying it’s not worth fighting for

 

[357]

Your rep is either useless, lazy, or is seriously upset with you about something.

Get the statement if you can.

Get statements from the people who let you stay in their house.

Get statements from anyone who knows both you and your wife.

They have said there is no evidence of your relationship being bad, now is your time to prove it to them.

 

[Hanson]

Your rep is either useless, lazy, or is seriously upset with you about something.

Get the statement if you can.

Get statements from the people who let you stay in their house.

Get statements from anyone who knows both you and your wife.

They have said there is no evidence of your relationship being bad, now is your time to prove it to them.

I will be working towards getting this statements today, as to me it should be enough proof as to what I was actually going through...
My union rep isn’t encouraging and he’s told me he seemed advices from other experience reps but they advice I resign as well which get me upset because all my circumstances ain’t considered at all by them.
I had no joint bank account with my wife, I never could have seen or suspect she was buying ticket or not, been emotionally distress didn’t make me remember about any pass, and when we both travel it was leisure and not work trip which it was right for her to use he pass and this was only on 2 occasions in a year!
Been trying to find other proof and evidence about the nature of our marriage but can’t find any as it was always an oral and confrontational matters and haven’t got any more physical evidence
But only the statements of whom I stayed with, and her own written statements satiating she was using it in her own accord
Which my rep is saying won’t hold water because they have that already and I’m still been charged for gross misconduct
Hence why I worried of fighting at all

I’m afraid the problem here looks to be that your rep is not saying what you want to hear. His job is to represent you but you need to trust him to do the best job he can in very unfavourable circumstances. He* doesn’t think you’ve got a good defence case and I am inclined to agree, and in these circumstances he will need to use all his experience to try and derail the management case by finding fault with the procedural parts of it.

* Whoever represents you in the hearing.

This is absolutely how I feel about my rep.
But written statements from whom I stayed with during almost all when this was really difficult for me before I pleaded to move back in the house and my spouse statements as well confirming I had no knowledge about the use should be enough evidence to at least get a punishment that not dismissal I would think!
But my union rep ain’t seeing this been enough
Why I’m confused what to do now
As I haven’t got anymore evidence to show because I always avoid confrontations anyways from her

 

[357]

If you don't fight at all, you have a 100% chance of losing your job by resigning.

If you fight, you can lower that percentage substantially.

Take screenshots showing length of time between messages on WhatsApp/Telegram/Viber/Facebook/SMS (include as many as possible so they don't say you must use another app), phone logs etc. Ask them directly if they have a partner, how often they send messages or call each other.

There was one rep where I worked before, that when I was under investigation for fraud told me to resign. I can promise you there is nothing in the world better than keeping your job and telling everyone how that rep told you to resign but you did everything yourself and still won.

Remember to offer to work out a payment plan for the money too - if they sack you, and you take it to a tribunal it will make them look even worse if you can say "I removed the passes from my wife, offered to repay the money, showed them statements saying how bad my relationship was, and they still sacked me" along with all the possible negative publicity that could cause for the company in this era of equality, and high media coverage of abusive relationships.

Many TOCs are offering free travel for women escaping abusive relationships right now - check if your TOC is one, explain to them how crazy it is that on the one hand they offer free travel for those escaping controlling husbands, but on the other hand bring you in for gross misconduct because you didn't check your wifes journey history!

 

[WesternLancer]

I will be working towards getting this statements today, as to me it should be enough proof as to what I was actually going through...
My union rep isn’t encouraging and he’s told me he seemed advices from other experience reps but they advice I resign as well which get me upset because all my circumstances ain’t considered at all by them.
I had no joint bank account with my wife, I never could have seen or suspect she was buying ticket or not, been emotionally distress didn’t make me remember about any pass, and when we both travel it was leisure and not work trip which it was right for her to use he pass and this was only on 2 occasions in a year!
Been trying to find other proof and evidence about the nature of our marriage but can’t find any as it was always an oral and confrontational matters and haven’t got any more physical evidence
But only the statements of whom I stayed with, and her own written statements satiating she was using it in her own accord
Which my rep is saying won’t hold water because they have that already and I’m still been charged for gross misconduct
Hence why I worried of fighting at all


This is absolutely how I feel about my rep.
But written statements from whom I stayed with during almost all when this was really difficult for me before I pleaded to move back in the house and my spouse statements as well confirming I had no knowledge about the use should be enough evidence to at least get a punishment that not dismissal I would think!
But my union rep ain’t seeing this been enough
Why I’m confused what to do now
As I haven’t got anymore evidence to show because I always avoid confrontations anyways from her

Good luck - IMHO some excellent advice from @357 .

Tre to 'paint a picture' ref your relationship - probably juts a list / bullet points that details the nature of the relationship etc / list any dates even rough ones (eg Spring 2019) when you may have spoken to your partner about use of pass. You can even mention as an example that you have 'no joint finances / no joint bank account' - OK plenty of people in good marriages may have no joint bank accounts, but large numbers do, so it helps with context.

Support this with short statements from friends etc about your relationship, about how they know you to be honest and of good character, short written statements, they could say things like how they have noticed, over time, that this whole situation has put you under significant pressure and has been a cause of mental stress etc - put them together in a file of papers printed out etc if at all possible

Ask for the deferral on the reasons stated above by others (perfectly reasonable to say to management that you feel the need to engage legal advice as you have found the union has not, in your view, adequately presented your case, and you have been unable to secure the services of a suitable solicitor in advance on Monday etc) - you need to ask for this today I guess, through to your managers and HR