Most Successful UK Locomotive Design

[TheEdge]

Just a question I was pondering when leaving work today after a NR train T&T'd with 37s came into Norwich.

What would you think was the single most successful UK locomotive design? (by your own personal measure and steam, diesel or electric)

I'll obviously make the first nomination. The GWR 0-6-0 Pannier tanks.

My logic?

Almost 2500 were built over 26 classes between 1864 and 1956. Several of them found use into the 1970s with the NCB and LU. They were a design that existed all over the Western region doing all sorts of work. Put simply they were built in vast numbers over almost 100 years by both the GWR long before the grouping and by BR long after nationalisation and found all sorts of work, with plently of them enjoying a second life even today. Seems successful to me.

Any other thoughts?

 

[rebmcr]

Depends on whether the 66 is eligible.

 

[TheEdge]

Depends on whether the 66 is eligible.

Anything is eligible. If it runs on rails in the UK than its eligible.

 

[Manchester77]

Diesel surely class 43 (HST)?!

Rescued a struggling BR's public image and are still the backbone of many services now

 

[rebmcr]

Diesel surely class 43 (HST)?!

Rescued a struggling BR's public image and are still the backbone of many services now

Actually, yes. This.

 

[ainsworth74]

Possibly an dangerous suggestion to make but I'd probably go for 47s. Very long serving, capable of hauling freight and express passenger trains and found across the network in their heyday.

 

[OuterDistant]

Twenties? Some still in service but first ones entered service in 1957, and BR had to go back to EE and have a second batch built because the other designs were so unreliable!

 

[ash39]

Agreed HST, even though they had to re-engine them, they have lasted a lot longer than they were intended to. The concept of a power car at each end offers a great compromise on performance, reliability and passenger comfort. I can't understand why it hasn't been copied/evolved since.

I would not like to travel on a DMU, however refined it is, for more than a couple of hours. I could happily sit on a mk3 for a lot longer.

Other than that, looking at some old magazines (also the fact that plenty remain in regular service today), the Class 37 has always seemed to be a fairly reliable loco.

Class 66, basically drove them off the ship under their own power. Whatever you think of them they work and are good value.

I can't comment on any steam engines as I'm not very knowledgeable on them.

 

[Buttsy]

Aesthetically the best diesel or electric I would say was the Western.

 

[Manchester77]

Electric I'd either say a 73 or a 91
I like the nose of a 91 being able to haul express passenger trains and then turning round to a flat end for sleepers or thunderbird duties
The 73s are a bit of a go anywhere loco. They can operate on SR 3rd rail and then on other types serving their duties well

 

[ash39]

I do like the 91's but by all accounts not the most reliable? Hence the owners/operators are looking at ways to improve availability, as GNER were when they became 91/1's in the early 2000's.

It depends how we're defining successful, is it reliability, longevity, aesthetics or suitability for purpose?

 

[sprinterguy]

Depends on whether the 66 is eligible.

Though they’re no good for passenger duties as they cannot provide train supply, only a small sub-fleet of the class is any good for really heavy haulage, which is part of the reason why we have class 60s and 70s in operation with DB and Freightliner respectively, and they’re ridiculously over-powered for lightweight duties over more rural routes and with more marginal traffic, which has helped to keep a number of class 20s and class 37s in traffic for many years now since the class 66 was first introduced.

As such, the class 66 does not come close to providing the same utility as a class 47 locomotive, which is what I would put forward as the most successful UK diesel locomotive, in agreement with Ainsworth74. The class 47 has been a versatile “go anywhere” loco for half a century that has successfully turned it’s hand to operating everything from heavy block load freight to express passenger trains, and pretty much everything inbetween, in pretty much every corner of Britain.

 

[Smudger105e]

08s and 09s have got to be up there, do the job they were intended to do, and do it without fuss.

 

[johnb]

43s led the revival of IC passenger services. 66s led the revival of railfreight. They are the obvious winners.

47s were great, the only other BR-era loco than 43s that could possibly be on the list, but they were designed to do an impossible job (ie "single mixed light freight/heavy haul/passenger loco operating on a modern railway"), and suffered as a result.

 

[jopsuk]

Not many left in use these days, but the 08s, with 996 built, plus a further 26 of the faster 09s and another 161 10s (based on the same design) have to be a candidate?

 

[sprinterguy]

I like the nose of a 91 being able to haul express passenger trains and then turning round to a flat end for sleepers or thunderbird duties

I cannot share this view: The class 91s are geared for high speed express passenger work that makes them less useful for hauling heavier, slower trains such as sleepers, and their reliability has proven to be much less than perfect. The class 90 is a far more versatile, multi-purpose machine – Having even been used alongside the East Coast’s class 91 fleet hauling mark 4 rakes for several years thanks to having a faster rate of acceleration than a 91 due to their lower 110mph top speed, as well as seeing use on West Coast and Crosscountry passenger duties, mail and parcels work, and heavy freight and container trains.

I would argue though that the class 86 has been the biggest success story in British electric traction circles (From admittedly quite a limited pool) – Very much the “electric 47”.

 

[ainsworth74]

My steam nomination would go to the 9Fs. Whilst they were prematurely withdrawn due to BR's decision to withdraw all steam ASAP I still think that they were a fantastic design nonetheless. A locomotive taking advantage of all the lessons of 100 years of steam locomotive design that was capable of hauling the heaviest freight trains on the network but just as capable of hauling passenger services (and apparently weren't to shabby at hauling express passenger trains on the odd occasion). They were also widespread around the GB rail network. They've got to be up there with best steam locomotives this country ever produced.

 

[bronzeonion]

Diesel: Class 37 or Class 47. Both classses are extremely versatile and have served the UK Rail network very well. The Class 47 looks much smarter on the front of a passenger train whereas a 37 looks more suited to a freight train because of its more rugged looks.

Electric: Class 90.

 

[ash39]

Again I think the Class 90 is a great mixed-use loco on paper, and great looking, but has it been successful? Only 25 years since they were built and almost half of them are stored rotting probably never to work again, and the ones in regular passenger use are being sent back to Crewe to be essentially totally rewired in order to improve reliability (according to a couple of magazine articles on Crown Point depot)

 

[DXMachina]

Stanier 8F - operated by all 4 of the Big 4 companies, by the War Dept, by BR to 1968, and well into the 1980s in Eastern Europe & Turkey, and possibly later yet in the Middle East and parts of Asia.

I saw a pic of a pair of them parked just outside Baghdad which was taken by a soldier during the 2003 invasion.

 

[RobShipway]

Class 35 Hymek - 101 produced.

 

[60163tornado]

Class 37, heavy haulage, powerful, the best, never beaten and still being used TODAY!!

 

[O L Leigh]

Not many left in use these days, but the 08s, with 996 built, plus a further 26 of the faster 09s and another 161 10s (based on the same design) have to be a candidate?

This.

Based on a pre-Nationalisation LMS design, over 1000 built and, while the fleet has been thinned as the need for shunting engines has receded, they have never been replaced by a newer design. In terms of meeting their design specification surely these little locos have been the biggest success.

Some people here are perhaps getting "successful" and "versatile" muddled up. The two are not necessarily synonymous. Versatility can be used to measure success, but to use this measure alone is very narrow.

O L Leigh

 

[DarloRich]

This.

Based on a pre-Nationalisation LMS design, over 1000 built and, while the fleet has been thinned as the need for shunting engines has receded, they have never been replaced by a newer design. In terms of meeting their design specification surely these little locos have been the biggest success.

Some people here are perhaps getting "successful" and "versatile" muddled up. The two are not necessarily synonymous. Versatility can be used to measure success, but to use this measure alone is very narrow.

O L Leigh

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

( and built in Darlo so that helps )

 

[fgwrich]

Aesthetically the best diesel or electric I would say was the Western.

Though they’re no good for passenger duties as they cannot provide train supply, only a small sub-fleet of the class is any good for really heavy haulage, which is part of the reason why we have class 60s and 70s in operation with DB and Freightliner respectively, and they’re ridiculously over-powered for lightweight duties over more rural routes and with more marginal traffic, which has helped to keep a number of class 20s and class 37s in traffic for many years now since the class 66 was first introduced.

As such, the class 66 does not come close to providing the same utility as a class 47 locomotive, which is what I would put forward as the most successful UK diesel locomotive, in agreement with Ainsworth74. The class 47 has been a versatile “go anywhere” loco for half a century that has successfully turned it’s hand to operating everything from heavy block load freight to express passenger trains, and pretty much everything inbetween, in pretty much every corner of Britain.

Agreed and Agreed. The Westerns still to me, remain the most beautiful design of loco on the mainline (with the Sir Kenneth Grange designed HST a very close second), but overall the 47 Does it for me. Not just because they are my choice of loco but as you say, they are a very successful “go anywhere” loco which still continue to remain to be highly usefull to this day, from working freights to fast passenger duties, Air & Vac braking, ETH and for those with it left even Steam Heat.

 

[6Gman]

Class 35 Hymek - 101 produced.

Some of which worked!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This.

Based on a pre-Nationalisation LMS design, over 1000 built and, while the fleet has been thinned as the need for shunting engines has receded, they have never been replaced by a newer design. In terms of meeting their design specification surely these little locos have been the biggest success.

Some people here are perhaps getting "successful" and "versatile" muddled up. The two are not necessarily synonymous. Versatility can be used to measure success, but to use this measure alone is very narrow.

O L Leigh

In the 1980s I found a file marked 'Class 08 Replacement' at work [BR LMR]. Didn't get very far as a project, which says a lot about the 08!

 

[jopsuk]

I wonder, with increasing OHL electrification, whether there could be a call again for a smallish, powerful, efficient new design of shunter to move electric freight trains in yards where OHL is impractical- rather than having these silly "last mile" systems. The lack of a replacement for the 08 is as much to do with the lack of need for yard shunters in most modern operations as it is with it being a stunningly good design.

 

[W.Tregurtha]

Possibly an dangerous suggestion to make but I'd probably go for 47s. Very long serving, capable of hauling freight and express passenger trains and found across the network in their heyday.

I'm no locomotive expert but I believe that they did have a lot of engine problems in that the Sulzer 12 LDA prime mover which was originally rated at 2,750 hp had to be de-rated to 2,610 hp and then finally 2,580 hp to achieve reliability.
I was told that the American locomotives that Foster-Yeoman bought (I used to see them when I visited friends in Great Elm in Somerset) knocked spots off anything that B.R. built or had built in terms of hauling capacity, availability and reliability.

 

[TrainBoy98]

Black 5s Surely? The 'Go anywhere, do anything' locos

 

[yorksrob]

I'd have to agree with those saying 47's. They wouldn't have been used on so many types of trains all over the country for so long if they weren't successful.

I can sort of see the point with 43's but are they really loco's ?

Also, for pure longevity, what about the class 20's ? predating HAP's and CEP's and introduced at around the same time as the Suez Crisis, yet still in use on the mainline network today !