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My advice: Never book to travel with Grand Central
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Blindtraveler
Established Member
This is certainly a selling point in their favor, as whilst a choice is good especially for rail passengers who don't travel by rail or that much and might still want to use cash although I think that the industry as a whole sees cash as being dead, as I do hence the move away from it post pandemic by many operators
That did not appear to be much of a consolation for the passengers at York last Sunday.
redreni
Member
I agree with that although, at the risk of coming across a bit utopian, I am not yet willing to give up completely on the notion that their freedom to choose how to run their operation is limited by regulation.
So I will take into account not only the likelihood of disruption, what they say they'll do in the event of disruption and people's experiences of what they actually do, but also what they're required to do and the prospects of getting them to do that.
I would say I have no real issue with them apart from the failure to reroute people at the earliest opportunity. Hundreds of miles of diesel under the wires isn't ideal but it's still a lot better than driving, their seats are comfortable and their fares are often reasonable.
One only has to compare a basket of WCML and ECML fares to see the benefits of competition for passengers on the latter.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
But the WCML has competition - very low-fare competition - in the form of Chiltern and LNR. Not to Glasgow, admittedly, though a split at Crewe can save significant money, but it's viable competition with a change to Liverpool, Manchester or other parts of the North West and it's very well used, and observation would seem to suggest LNR and Chiltern are carrying more leisure traffic between London and Brum than Avanti are. There's also the car which takes the bulk of traffic, a few flights and the coaches.
I don't think it's competition, it's different pricing models. One thing of note is that the regulated walk up off peak fares on the WCML are for historical reasons about 10-15% lower (following the increase at single fare pricing) than similar distances on other mainlines, so more people will use those than on LNER, so if you actually do compare a basket of fares (rather than comparing the headline Advances) you might find things aren't as they seem.
redreni
Member
Encouraging that the GC trains I booked still appear in journey planners. I was half expecting the outbound to have been pre-cancelled by now. The recent performance record for the 14.27 out of King's Cross on a Tuesday is:
16 May - pre-cancelled*
23 May - cancelled
30 May - cancelled
6 June - arrived 6 minutes late
13 June - cancelled
20 June - arrived 2 minutes late
27 June - [unknown]
4 July - cancelled
11 July - pre-cancelled*
18 July - pre-cancelled*
25 July - cancelled
1 August - cancelled
8 August - arrived 27 minutes late
* - I think I'm reading recent train times' data correctly, here? If there's a blank space next to a particular service on a particular day, I'm assuming that means it was removed from the timetable for that day (aka p-coded or pre-cancelled)? Grateful for confirmation?
I'm not sure whether GC are proud of this record, but in my view it is information that should be shared with customers before they book a ticket for that specific train.
16 May - pre-cancelled*
23 May - cancelled
30 May - cancelled
6 June - arrived 6 minutes late
13 June - cancelled
20 June - arrived 2 minutes late
27 June - [unknown]
4 July - cancelled
11 July - pre-cancelled*
18 July - pre-cancelled*
25 July - cancelled
1 August - cancelled
8 August - arrived 27 minutes late
* - I think I'm reading recent train times' data correctly, here? If there's a blank space next to a particular service on a particular day, I'm assuming that means it was removed from the timetable for that day (aka p-coded or pre-cancelled)? Grateful for confirmation?
I'm not sure whether GC are proud of this record, but in my view it is information that should be shared with customers before they book a ticket for that specific train.
Purple Train
Established Member
Out of interest, what's the performance like for the 16.27? I'm booked on that next week, just to get 180s for haulage...
redreni
Member
Good by GC standards, but not by any other standard, I'd say.
81% ran on weekdays, 75% on weekends, over that same period since mid-May. The rest cancelled.
Average delay where services ran is 10 minutes on weekdays, 8 on weekends.
Purple Train
Established Member
Thanks
D1537
Member
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I was at Doncaster a few weeks ago waiting for my LNER service when it was announced that the 1204 GC to King's Cross was cancelled "due to too many trains needing repairs at the same time".
It was then announced that passengers should take the 1415 "additional service" to KGX - of course, a two hour delay. Looking on RTT, the "additional" service turned out to be the 1A65 Sunderland-KGX making an additional stop.
It was at that point that the previous Sunderland-KGX service, 1A64, trundled gently through the centre road, half empty. You would have thought, wouldn't you, that a stop order for that one would have been possible, given that it left York at least an hour and a half after the cancelled train should have left its origin (Bradford).
When I got on my train - the next KGX service - the conductor made it very clear that GC tickets were not valid on it, and then told people they could buy an LNER ticket "and have your GC ticket refunded". Good luck with that, I thought.
It was then announced that passengers should take the 1415 "additional service" to KGX - of course, a two hour delay. Looking on RTT, the "additional" service turned out to be the 1A65 Sunderland-KGX making an additional stop.
It was at that point that the previous Sunderland-KGX service, 1A64, trundled gently through the centre road, half empty. You would have thought, wouldn't you, that a stop order for that one would have been possible, given that it left York at least an hour and a half after the cancelled train should have left its origin (Bradford).
When I got on my train - the next KGX service - the conductor made it very clear that GC tickets were not valid on it, and then told people they could buy an LNER ticket "and have your GC ticket refunded". Good luck with that, I thought.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If your train is cancelled you're entitled to a full refund if you choose not to travel, regardless of ticket type. I have no time for GC at all, but you aren't suggesting they are refusing that, are you? Though if concerned you could of course buy via a different retailer, as that sort of refund is from the retailer, not the operator.
D1537
Member
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I was thinking of how you'd prove you didn't travel, but you could provide your LNER ticket as proof that you made alternative arrangements, I suppose. Of course, I'd guess the LNER walk-up fare is going to be a lot more than they paid on GC (actually, I just looked it up - £58, so perhaps not too bad).
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You'd not be asked to prove you didn't travel unless you'd already scanned the ticket on a gateline. Purely because it's fairly hard to prove you didn't do something generally.
It'd usually be accepted as honest unless you did it a lot on walk-up fares or the ticket had been scanned on board a train which would suggest you did travel.
D1537
Member
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No gateline at Donny, so no problem there.
I note that those chose to wait for the next train would have been delayed by around 2h15, so a 75% refund (not even a full one...)
This thread scares me. I am booked on the last GC train out of Kings Cross on Saturday 2/9/23, the 19:57 to Donny [Bradford] then on to Scunthorpe. When I booked I was consoled by the GC site which offers this advice “Cancelling a service is not a decision taken lightly and the first concern of our Control Team is to ensure that customers will still be able to reach their destinations. This is usually by means of ticket acceptance with an alternative Train Operating Company. Once this has been confirmed information is passed to all stations affected for staff to convey to passengers.
The best place to find up to date information is our Twitter page (https://twitter.com/GC_Rail)
You will not need an account to view this information.
Should you require immediate information concerning a particular journey (i.e. train departure/arrival times, optimal routes) I would recommend that you contact our Customer Relations Team on 0345 603 4852 Monday – Friday 08:00 – 18:00
Or the out of hours team - Monday – Friday 18:00 – 22:00 and 08:00-22:00 Saturday and Sunday 08:00-22:00.
If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed). If, as a result, you decide not to travel, a refund will be offered on completely unused tickets and you will not be charged an administration fee.”
I note there is no number for the out of hours team or is it the same as the customer relations team listed above it?
Just had a look at their Twitter [or whatever it’s called this week] account, tonight’s 19:48 to Bradford is cancelled and they’ve rejigged the 19:27 to depart later and call at Donny.
I’m now worried about being stranded in London on Saturday night. My experience of this sort of thing is that when things get tough those who should sort it out quickly disappear or don’t answer the phone.
Is there a GC presence at Kings Cross?
If so where would I find them?
The best place to find up to date information is our Twitter page (https://twitter.com/GC_Rail)
You will not need an account to view this information.
Should you require immediate information concerning a particular journey (i.e. train departure/arrival times, optimal routes) I would recommend that you contact our Customer Relations Team on 0345 603 4852 Monday – Friday 08:00 – 18:00
Or the out of hours team - Monday – Friday 18:00 – 22:00 and 08:00-22:00 Saturday and Sunday 08:00-22:00.
If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed). If, as a result, you decide not to travel, a refund will be offered on completely unused tickets and you will not be charged an administration fee.”
I note there is no number for the out of hours team or is it the same as the customer relations team listed above it?
Just had a look at their Twitter [or whatever it’s called this week] account, tonight’s 19:48 to Bradford is cancelled and they’ve rejigged the 19:27 to depart later and call at Donny.
I’m now worried about being stranded in London on Saturday night. My experience of this sort of thing is that when things get tough those who should sort it out quickly disappear or don’t answer the phone.
Is there a GC presence at Kings Cross?
If so where would I find them?
Haywain
Veteran Member
- Joined
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- 15,354
Yes.
Usually at the Customer Information point on the main concourse, although they may not be there at the time of the departure of another GC or Hull Trains service as they deal with both companies.
redreni
Member
I don't think I've heard any horror stories about GC stranding people last thing at night (which is not to say it hasn't happened, just that if it has I'm unaware).
Is your booked train the last one that evening, or just the last GC one? As I understand it if you would otherwise be stranded overnight, any operator in a position to help you must do so. So in other words, you're not reliant on GC agreeing ticket acceptance with other operators because they can't refuse you anyway.
Is your booked train the last one that evening, or just the last GC one? As I understand it if you would otherwise be stranded overnight, any operator in a position to help you must do so. So in other words, you're not reliant on GC agreeing ticket acceptance with other operators because they can't refuse you anyway.
I believe it is the last GC service not last service of any operator.
That [any operator must do so] is useful.
Is there a "chapter and verse" I can quote as to what rule that is?
This is quoting the National Rail Conditions of Travel, which all train companies are covered by https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf
Class800
Established Member
To be fair the same user posted 5 minutes earlier stating their mother was 70 years old and stuck on a platform at Mirfield. Doesn't excuse the GC reply but don't believe everything on Twitter/X!
THX.
That troublesome word "reasonable".
Every lawyer’s favourite word
If a TOC is operating a train that you can fit on, they are reasonably able to assist you. Now, don’t get me wrong, staff on the ground may still leave you to your own devices. But they would be on a hiding to nothing if they tried to deny any claim you later put in for additional tickets you were forced to buy.
Let's say that your service is cancelled, and you board on another service by another TOC, as it's the only way to get to your destination that evening, quote them this, and a guard refuses to accept it. What would happen if you refused to buy a new ticket?
Class800
Established Member
You can't just board it, you need to get agreement, so it's no different to any other situation in that regard
Gemz91
Member
I remember in the early days of the West Riding services, GC staff would re-issue passengers holding GC only tickets with any permitted tickets free of charge to allow them to use LNER (or what ever they were called then) services.
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