My idea for re-establishing Cross Country Service To Brighton

[SussexSpotter]

Anyone think 1 perhaps 2 daily Cross Country services to/from Brighton and Newcastle would be a good idea. There used to be 2 services per day which opperated to/from Manchester and Brighton via Gatwick, East Croydon, Kensington Olympia and GWML. They were withdrawn by the DFt in 2008.

I've been looking at the current timetable and is it possible to run a Cross Country voyager from Eastleigh via Botley, Havant, Chichester, Barnham, Worthing to Brighton? Are they cleared along the route between Havant and Brighton?

1E86 0801 Winchester to Newcastle could be started from Brighton in the morning, and the 5E86 ECS could run to Brighton early morning to form the 1E86 Brighton - Newcastle service.

The 1O90 1335 Newcastle to Eastleigh service could also be extended to Brighton and then run ECS as 5O90 Brighton - Eastleigh TRSMD.

Just a suggestion......and do you think it would be well used?

Guildford see's 1 service per day too/from Newcastle

 

[TEW]

The Guildford XC service is more of a token gesture after the withdrawal of the the Brighton and Gatwick Airport services, at the time of day it runs it's actually of little use. Useful way for drivers to keep route knowledge up via Havant as well.

 

[SussexSpotter]

The Guildford XC service is more of a token gesture after the withdrawal of the the Brighton and Gatwick Airport services, at the time of day it runs it's actually of little use. Useful way for drivers to keep route knowledge up via Havant as well.

ahh I see, still an additional Brighton service could improve route knowledge along the Havant - Fareham section encase of diversion via Guildford.

 

[Eagle]

Remember that scrapping Brighton (and introducing HSTs, which happened at the same time) enabled XC to strengthen services in the core where it was badly needed. Enough so that they were able to run extra services to Southampton and Glasgow.

 

[SussexSpotter]

Remember that scrapping Brighton (and introducing HSTs, which happened at the same time) enabled XC to strengthen services in the core where it was badly needed. Enough so that they were able to run extra services to Southampton and Glasgow.

But could extending the 2 SWML services I have mentioned allow Brighton to regain its link to the north and also to Reading. The Brighton to Reading South West Trains services used to opperate via that route. No additional voyagers would be required, just an extended service, new route, and alteration to the ECS movements?

 

[TEW]

ahh I see, still an additional Brighton service could improve route knowledge along the Havant - Fareham section encase of diversion via Guildford.

Well they don't seem to have problems running along it now when there are diversions, I understand that crew also have jobs passing on SWT trains that way to retain route knowledge.

 

[Eagle]

But could extending the 2 SWML services I have mentioned allow Brighton to regain its link to the north and also to Reading. The Brighton to Reading South West Trains services used to opperate via that route. No additional voyagers would be required, just an extended service, new route, and alteration to the ECS movements?

These services would be at ridiculous times of the day; and remember that you're adding a whole three hours onto the train's diagram—Eastleigh to Brighton and back—who's going to drive it?

The morning service would need to leave the depot before 5am, by my reckoning.

 

[calc7]

Seems like another classic RailUK thread where somebody is conveniently suggesting an increase in service in their home town/county with little thought to the operational and logistical practicalities or the financial viabilities.

 

[SussexSpotter]

These services would be at ridiculous times of the day; and remember that you're adding a whole three hours onto the train's diagram—Eastleigh to Brighton and back—who's going to drive it?

hmmm...alternatively the ECS could run to Southampton in the morning, and form a fast non-stop early morning Southampton - Brighton service, and the same in the evening. That would improve driver route knowledge on the Southampton - Fareham section then.

Although the services would run at ridiculous times of the day, at least it would get a service again. The Guildford services run at anti-social times even if they are just token services.

 

[Eagle]

Seems like another classic RailUK thread where somebody is conveniently suggesting an increase in service in their home town/county with little thought to the operational and logistical practicalities or the financial viabilities.

Indeed. Brighton to Newcastle would be way quicker by changing in London (you don't even need to use the tube, as it's St Pancras to King's Cross), than this route, or even either of the two routes via Gatwick that VXC ran.

No one much would use this very early and indirect service.

 

[sonic2009]

You've also got the issue of pathing the trains too.

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk

 

[SussexSpotter]

Indeed. Brighton to Newcastle would be way quicker by changing in London (you don't even need to use the tube, as it's St Pancras to King's Cross), than this route, or even either of the two routes via Gatwick that VXC ran.

No one much would use this very early and indirect service.

You are probably right that it is quicker to go via London to get to Newcastle but some might use it even if it is a lot slower and runs early morning I wouldn't neccessarly expect people to travel from Brighton to Newcastle using this service but would allow for an early morning link to Winchester, Basingstoke, Reading, Oxford, Banbury and Leamington Spa that would otherwise take longer going via London. At the end of the day it's just a thought making use of ECS voyager movements that would otherwise be sitting at Eastleigh.

 

[Eagle]

I wouldn't neccessarly expect people to travel from Brighton to Newcastle using this service but would allow for an early morning link to Winchester, Basingstoke, Reading, Oxford, Banbury and Leamington Spa that would otherwise take longer going via London.

Not quite. The limit of being faster than going via London on that route is Basingstoke, or possibly Reading. Brighton to Leamington can be done in 3 hours via London; your route takes more like 4h.

 

[SussexSpotter]

Not quite. The limit of being faster than going via London on that route is Basingstoke, or possibly Reading. Brighton to Leamington can be done in 3 hours via London; your route takes more like 4h.

Takes 1 hour 30 mins to get from Brighton to Winchester, the 1E86 0801 Winchester to Newcastle arrives Leamington Spa at 0942 So that's 3 hours 12 minutes to Leamington Spa going my route and no need to change trains

So the service would depart Brighton at about 0630 which is later than the Guildford service for a start so less anti-social.

Just looked at National rail enquires for the quickest journey option, making that journey at roughly the same time would mean getting the 0640 Gatwick Express service from Brighton to London Victoria which arrives at 0750, then it suggests the tube from Victoria to Marylebone arriving at 0833, then getting the 0837 departure from Marylebone to Leamington Spa arriving at 0947, my service is therefore quicker, cheaper and more convenient

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timetable/details?id=2&return=false&callingPage=tf

Looking at the journey time to Newcastle there's suprisingly not as much difference as I thought there would be, about 2 hours...still not worth taking te direct service all the way but was expecting something like 4 hours difference:

Via Brighton Mainline and London

Depart Brighton - 0637
Arrive Newcastle - 1143

My proposed Cross Country service

Depart Brighton - 0630
Arrive Newcastle - 1345

 

[Ivo]

That link won't be much use to the rest of us...

 

[Eagle]

...my service is therefore quicker, cheaper and more convenient

What. Your service leaves at 06.30 and arrives at 09.42, total 3h12.

The London service leaves at 06.40 and arrives at 09.47, total 3h07.

Your timings, not mine.

Also I don't know where you're getting "cheaper" from; experience suggests that when XC are involved it's usually painfully expensive. Via London (priced by Chiltern) would almost certainly be cheaper.

 

[Lrd]

The only reason the Guildford service is run is purely for crew knowledge, the stock comes ECS from Eastleigh and then picks up a guard from Guildford (who I believe comes down from Reading on a FGW service) and is then able to run in passenger service. I highly doubt it is well used.

 

[SussexSpotter]

That link won't be much use to the rest of us...

But would at least allow for some improvement to the current service in Sussex and re-instating former links between key stations. Besides this could be a useful commuter train
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What. Your service leaves at 06.30 and arrives at 09.42, total 3h12.

The London service leaves at 06.40 and arrives at 09.47, total 3h07.

Your timings, not mine.

Also I don't know where you're getting "cheaper" from; experience suggests that when XC are involved it's usually painfully expensive. Via London (priced by Chiltern) would almost certainly be cheaper.

But you are travelling to Leamington Spa via London in peak time and would need to join the daily commuter crush and pay peak London commuter prices with no guarantee of a seat, then join the underground which around that time would be very chaotic and overcrowded. Having been exhausted from the journey already you'd need to board yet another train. To be honest I would agree that Cross Country prices are a lot more so perhaps saying it's cheaper isn't exactly correct but considering how much better the journey would be i'd say it was more value for money to go Cross Country.

My service departs earlier from Brighton and arrives earlier so is therefore quicker, otherwise you'd need to wait around for the 0640 which arrives Leamington Spa later. The alternative 0617 departure from Brighton would mean you arrive at Leamington Spa the same time as the direct service and takes even longer. You'd be boarding my suggested Cross Country service anyway at Reading having paid out going via the Brighton Mainline and having to inconveniently change trains.

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timetable/details?id=2&return=false&callingPage=tf

 

[MikeWh]

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timetable/details?id=2&return=false&callingPage=tf

That link won't be much use to the rest of us...

You misunderstood Ivo. He wasn't refering to the train as a link, rather to your URL which referenced a session on your computer and therefore returns an error when anyone else tries to click on it.

 

[TEW]

The only reason the Guildford service is run is purely for crew knowledge, the stock comes ECS from Eastleigh and then picks up a guard from Guildford (who I believe comes down from Reading on a FGW service) and is then able to run in passenger service. I highly doubt it is well used.

It's main use is because it is the first Guildford-Reading service of the day, running about 5 minutes ahead of an FGW service.

 

[calc7]

But you are travelling to Leamington Spa via London in peak time and would need to join the daily commuter crush and pay peak London commuter prices with no guarantee of a seat, then join the underground which around that time would be very chaotic and overcrowded.

Wrong.
Brighton is inside the Network SE area and Leamington Spa is outside. Therefore the connections between London and Brighton are unrestricted and so the pricing would be led by the £25 Super Off-Peak Return, priced by Chiltern.

At 0640 the train may be busy but is unlikely to be crammed.

Will you stop with the crap justifications of a whole new service that will almost certainly operate at a loss just because it benefits you.

 

[Drsatan]

Wrong.


Will you stop with the crap justifications of a whole new service that will almost certainly operate at a loss just because it benefits you.

Thank you!

While it's unfortunate that Brighton has no XC services nowadays, removing Voyagers used on the Brighton services has allowed the core network to be strengthened, meaning that more services can be run using two Voyagers. I'm not sure which XC services are booked for two Voyagers but the consequent reduction in overcrowding benefits far more passengers than having a token service to Brighton . The then Strategic Rail Authority can be blamed for refusing to allow Virgin to order additional coaches when the Meridian production line was still open.

AFAIK Operation Princess proposed an hourly Manchester - Brighton service, which was watered down to seven trains a day due to problems pathing them, then to two or three trains a day.

 

[Mojo]

A bigger help, and simpler solution IMO would be to extend the Southern Milton Keynes - Clapham Jct/South Croydon service to Brighton.

 

[Eagle]

A bigger help, and simpler solution IMO would be to extend the Southern Milton Keynes - Clapham Jct/South Croydon service to Brighton.

As indeed it did, up until 2008 (although it only went as far north as Watford).

 

[Mojo]

Of course if you're desperate to avoid London, an alternative way of going from Birmingham/Coventry/Leamington/Banbury to Gatwick Airport would be to take XC to Reading and change for the FGW service via Guildford.

 

[D1009]

The point is that some people like through services to avoid changing, but once the increase in journey time exceeds an hour, not very many, and certainly not enough to justify causing overcrowding elsewhere. What percentage of Plymouth and stations to Cheltenham to Edinburgh passengers change on to the VT services at New St to save an hour ?

 

[swt_passenger]

hmmm...alternatively the ECS could run to Southampton in the morning, and form a fast non-stop early morning Southampton - Brighton service, and the same in the evening.

Presumably flying along all those four track sections of the West Coastway, or using all the passing loops helpfully provided. Or maybe not...

Plan: Extend service from Guildford to Southamptojn via Brighton in the middle of the night.

Verdict: Completely ridiculous.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At the end of the day it's just a thought making use of ECS voyager movements that would otherwise be sitting at Eastleigh.

They don't just 'sit at Eastleigh' as you put it. 8 or 9 Voyagers per night are maintained, cleaned, tanked and fuelled at Eastleigh. The last arrives at about 0030, the first leave at around 0445.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The only reason the Guildford service is run is purely for crew knowledge, the stock comes ECS from Eastleigh and then picks up a guard from Guildford (who I believe comes down from Reading on a FGW service) and is then able to run in passenger service. I highly doubt it is well used.

The only reason the service runs is because following the 'stakeholder consultation' the DfT left it as a franchise requirement to run one service per day:

Other Locations
There is a requirement to provide at least one train to and from Guildford each day.
---
There is no requirement for bidders to operate services to Gatwick Airport or Brighton in the ITT; however if a bidder identifies a business case for operation to either of these locations which is complementary to the rest of the New Cross Country operation this may be included in their proposals.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A bigger help, and simpler solution IMO would be to extend the Southern Milton Keynes - Clapham Jct/South Croydon service to Brighton.

I always thought a good way of doing that would be a joint SN/LM service to provide the additional dual voltage stock required, and run it as 8 car throughout, to avoid the perceived problem that the current single unit would be a bad use of Brighton line capacity.

So some of the trains would use 350/1s all the way through, IYSWIM. In principle you could then send the trains all the way through to Rugby or even New St, but they'd probably still suffer from the slow times via Northampton..

 

[neodoughnut]

I think that much more viable service would be a direct Brighton to Birmingham service via the WLL and WCML. Using 220/221 Units end to end timings would be approx 2h30m and calling at the following stations :

BTN -> GTW -> ECR -> CLJ -> KPA -> SPB -> WFJ -> MKC -> RUG -> COV -> BHI -> BHM.

Obviously this is theoretical and would be dependent on availability of paths on the WLL, WCML and BML.

Just my two pence.

 

[cle]

A bigger help, and simpler solution IMO would be to extend the Southern Milton Keynes - Clapham Jct/South Croydon service to Brighton.

Problem is that it's much better running on the slows in terms of conflcts and where it comes in at Clapham.

So it would need to run as a local train until the Croydon area anyway.

From there, much easier to move over. Shame really as it could be a great regional service. I think once it ran to Rugby.

 

[Mojo]

I think once it ran to Rugby.

That's correct. See these pics on the SEmG website: http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class319_03.html