My idea to extend trains from Lichfield to Derby

[dannypye9999]

It would be interesting if London midland implemented the following service:

* Hereford to Birmingham services could continue through New St and along the cross city line to Lichfield TV then along the slip of track to join the Main line to Burton-on-Trent and Derby. This then offers passengers along this route a quicker journey to Derby rather than travelling into Birmingham (35mins) to make their connection.

This will mean one DMU unit an hour replacing an EMU between Longbridge and Lichfield, and this service can also call at the stops from Longbridge to Birmingham again replacing the EMU. These spare EMUs can then be used as new stopping trains from Brum to Stoke, re-instating Wedgwood and Barlaston and giving Stone a direct service into both Birmingham and London.

Another advantage is Burton-on-Trent will for the first time get to see their own trains stopping at their own station for once. Currently only cross country trains stop there yet its London midland operated.

 

[Eagle]

Currently only cross country trains stop there yet its London midland operated.

Burton on Trent is operated by East Midlands Trains.

 

[34D]

Nice idea. I'd be interested to see some stats.

However, I suspect it would fail any 'not primarily abstractive' test

 

[The Planner]

It would be interesting if London midland implemented the following service:

* Hereford to Birmingham services could continue through New St and along the cross city line to Lichfield TV then along the slip of track to join the Main line to Burton-on-Trent and Derby. This then offers passengers along this route a quicker journey to Derby rather than travelling into Birmingham (35mins) to make their connection.

Centro are interested in extending the Herefords to either Nuneaton or Tamworth, but there isn't much of a business case for it and pathing is next to impossible. Extending the Cross City is another but only as part of any electrification of Derby - Brum and the infill on the Wichnor - Lichfield section. It wouldn't be any quicker due to the speed between Aston - Wichnor, it doesn't go above 60 a great deal and the mainline is 125. Any higher speed would require a re-signalling of the Cross City North, which ain't gonna happen any time soon.

This will mean one DMU unit an hour replacing an EMU between Longbridge and Lichfield, and this service can also call at the stops from Longbridge to Birmingham again replacing the EMU. These spare EMUs can then be used as new stopping trains from Brum to Stoke, re-instating Wedgwood and Barlaston and giving Stone a direct service into both Birmingham and London.

It would have to be a 172 to do that, the current 170 would never get between the Cross City on a stopping pattern like that. Barlaston is the only station in my opinion that would ever re-open, Wedgwood won't.

 

[Class172]

You seem to have exactly the same thoughts as me on this The Planner.

Centro are interested in extending the Herefords to either Nuneaton or Tamworth, but there isn't much of a business case for it and pathing is next to impossible.

I've heard about this idea too; I am interested how much progress they made on the idea. Did they manage to mock up a timetable — I read that the service would run as an additional service to give 2tph Worcester - New St.

It would have to be a 172 to do that, the current 170 would never get between the Cross City on a stopping pattern like that. Barlaston is the only station in my opinion that would ever re-open, Wedgwood won't.

Indeed, a class 170 would never cope with the cross-city stops, it's not suited, yet alone designed for that sort of work.

 

[The Planner]

It was never an additional, just an extension. No mock up timetable as you couldnt path them in the vast majority of hours from what I was told.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I also don't think many Hereford / Worcester passengers would enjoy their 'express' New St service suddenly having an extra 6 stops on the way into Birmingham.

The proposed extension to Nuneaton is interesting - if were ever to happen would that enable Coleshill to be removed from the Stansted service? It doesn't strike me as a massive success as a station and would presumably save a couple of minutes' journey time to Nuneaton and Leicester etc.

 

[Class172]

I also don't think many Hereford / Worcester passengers would enjoy their 'express' New St service suddenly having an extra 6 stops on the way into Birmingham.

The proposed extension to Nuneaton is interesting - if were ever to happen would that enable Coleshill to be removed from the Stansted service? It doesn't strike me as a massive success as a station and would presumably save a couple of minutes' journey time to Nuneaton and Leicester etc.

Ah, I just realised that I misread the initial post - I thought it would only do extra stops on the northern Cross-city, not the southern end, in which case, I certainly would not be happy with that; we don't want any more people piling on to our trains - I would only be appeased if they gave us 2tph so at least one is express!

As a related thought, I've been looking at the timetables for the Hfd's and XC services and noticed an interesting pattern. Currently LM's Hereford services arrive at New St at around xx:13, then XC's service to Stansted leaves New St at xx:22. Then in reverse XC arr. xx:38 and LM dep. xx:49. Would it not be possible to join these services together as there is only a 10min stop at New St. Also it looks as if the BHM-LEI stopper could be extended to Worcester to give 2tph.

 

[The Planner]

Two TOCs though isn't it, so unless one takes on the route then that won't happen. As for dropping Coleshill, seriously doubt that would ever happen unless the Dft drops the service level commitment.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

As for dropping Coleshill, seriously doubt that would ever happen unless the Dft drops the service level commitment.

But if the Stansted call was replaced by a call on a new extension from New St ex-Hereford then surely that would maintain any service level commitments?

 

[The Planner]

Yes, but I doubt it would be dropped by XC as the station usage is increasing, it has gone from 104,000 in in 08/09 to 170,000 in 11/12. Considering the extensions don't work it is a bit of a moot point anyway.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Am I right in thinking that Coleshill didn't really add any time to the Nuneaton - Birmingham journey because the dwell time at Coleshill station was offset by the remodelling & new platforms at Nuneaton?

Nuneaton - Birmingham is quite a slow run though isn't it? It's 21 miles and takes over 30 minutes. There are some bottlenecks I'm sure (Whitacre junction, Water Orton, the approach to New Street station) but it really should be faster. I'm taking this off topic and into wild speculation territory now but I would be interested to know what the biggest things preventing a Birmingham - Nuneaton - Leicester express train taking 45 minutes are. Pathing? Line speed? Something else?

 

[bnsf734]

There is Arley tunnel with a speed restriction, and other speed restrictions around Daw Mill and Whitacre junction. Then there is Water Orton...

Certainly not a straight or easy route, but it is faster now than when the class 31's ran the Norwich services.

Perhaps once Daw Mill is flattened and returned to farmland there may be scope for a straightening and further speed-up.

Warwickshire County Council have their eyes on a new station at Galley Common, between Nuneaton and Arley Tunnel as part of the proposed service between Nuneaton and Birmingham. There was a thread on here about it last week.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

What is the cause of the speed restrictions? Are any of them related to potential mining subsidence?

 

[Old Hill Bank]

As most Hereford terminators sit in a platform at New Street for around 35 minutes,would it not be at least capacity neutral if they were run trough to somewhere be it Nuneaton, Derby, Rugeley or reverse and go to Shrewsbury?

 

[Class172]

Two TOCs though isn't it, so unless one takes on the route then that won't happen. As for dropping Coleshill, seriously doubt that would ever happen unless the Dft drops the service level commitment.

Perhaps we will have to wait until 2017 when the LM franchise runs out to see if there are any transfers of routes.

 

[tbtc]

What would be the time difference in terms of running a Birmingham - Burton service via the Lichfield line (rather than via Tamworth)?

Is it much of a penalty? Presumably, if you stop at all Cross City stations it would be, but what if the Four Oaks terminator ran "fast" north of there (maybe just stopping at Sutton Coldfield and Lichfield City between Four Oaks and Burton)?

(I'm talking in a fantasy world where the line to Derby is electrified etc, nothing serious/realistic!)

 

[Mugby]

At a guess, I would say about 20 mins longer that way but whenever I've been diverted via that route, there always seems to be an electric unit in the way at Lichfield, in the process of turning back.

Looking at the 1963 timetable, there was a service from Burton-on-Trent to Lichfield, Walsall and Wolverhampton, taking about an hour. Such a link could be very useful today but apart from the disused section from Lichfield to the oil terminal at Brownhills, I believe the rest of the route to Ryecroft Jcn, Walsall has now been mostly obliterated.

Incidentally, in 1963 several of the Derby - Birmingham stoppers were routed via Whitacre and Coleshill.

 

[tbtc]

Perhaps we will have to wait until 2017 when the LM franchise runs out to see if there are any transfers of routes.

I could see the LM "map" being split up a bit when electrification comes in to most of its diesel routes (other than Snow Hill).

I certainly don't see them keeping the Marston Vale service, for example.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At a guess, I would say about 20 mins longer that way but whenever I've been diverted via that route, there always seems to be an electric unit in the way at Lichfield, in the process of turning back.

Looking at the 1963 timetable, there was a service from Burton-on-Trent to Lichfield, Walsall and Wolverhampton, taking about an hour. Such a link could be very useful today but apart from the disused section from Lichfield to the oil terminal at Brownhills, I believe the rest of the route to Ryecroft Jcn, Walsall has now been mostly obliterated.

Incidentally, in 1963 several of the Derby - Birmingham stoppers were routed via Whitacre and Coleshill.

Cheers

 

[The Planner]

Am I right in thinking that Coleshill didn't really add any time to the Nuneaton - Birmingham journey because the dwell time at Coleshill station was offset by the remodelling & new platforms at Nuneaton?

Coleshill adds 1½ into a train based on a ½ dwell, 2 for a minute dwell.

Nuneaton - Birmingham is quite a slow run though isn't it? It's 21 miles and takes over 30 minutes. There are some bottlenecks I'm sure (Whitacre junction, Water Orton, the approach to New Street station) but it really should be faster.

Water Orton is 30, then 70 to Whitacre, then 35 over the junction and round the corner, then 70 to just before Abbey Junction at Nuneaton, there aren't any other restrictions. It is a big old climb up to Arley though, around 1 in 120 for a lot of it. There was passive provision for 90mph put in when it was re-signalled.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

. Such a link could be very useful today but apart from the disused section from Lichfield to the oil terminal at Brownhills, I believe the rest of the route to Ryecroft Jcn, Walsall has now been mostly obliterated.

Actually it is pretty much the reverse, it is very much unscathed with just a cycle path on top of it at the Walsall end.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is it much of a penalty? Presumably, if you stop at all Cross City stations it would be, but what if the Four Oaks terminator ran "fast" north of there (maybe just stopping at Sutton Coldfield and Lichfield City between Four Oaks and Burton)?

Sutton is before Four Oaks, but Four Oaks to Burton with a stop at Lichfield would take about 23-24 minutes by my reckoning.

 

[Buttsy]

Looking at the 1963 timetable, there was a service from Burton-on-Trent to Lichfield, Walsall and Wolverhampton, taking about an hour. Such a link could be very useful today but apart from the disused section from Lichfield to the oil terminal at Brownhills, I believe the rest of the route to Ryecroft Jcn, Walsall has now been mostly obliterated.

I could see a Derby - Burton - Lichfield - Walsall - Wolverhampton and a Lichfield - Walsall - Dudley - Stourbridge service being useful once some units are freed up by electrification. As the formation is clear, I'd wager it won't cost as much to re-instate as some of the other new lines that have re-opened in recent years where the formation has had to be rebuilt.

 

[O L Leigh]

There are no restrictions at Arley. It's 70mph right the way through from Abbey Junction (Nuneaton) to Whitacre Junction.

It's possible to get held up at Water Orton or Landor Street, but it doesn't actually happen that often. The biggest delay is getting into New Street. From Grand Junction onwards it's just a festival of red signals. So much so that anyone getting into a platform without being stopped will give serious consideration to reporting a signalling irregularity.

O L Leigh

 

[tbtc]

Sutton is before Four Oaks, but Four Oaks to Burton with a stop at Lichfield would take about 23-24 minutes by my reckoning.

Sorry, got my stations muddled!

 

[Philip Elliott]

There are no restrictions at Arley. It's 70mph right the way through from Abbey Junction (Nuneaton) to Whitacre Junction.

It's possible to get held up at Water Orton or Landor Street, but it doesn't actually happen that often. The biggest delay is getting into New Street. From Grand Junction onwards it's just a festival of red signals. So much so that anyone getting into a platform without being stopped will give serious consideration to reporting a signalling irregularity.

O L Leigh

Pretty much everyday on the 16.09 Brum to Leicester although it has been better lately.


The trackbed from Brownhills to Ryecroft Jn is 100% complete - far from being obliterated!


The biggest problem with the Arley route is Water Orton. The points at West Jn could easily be replaced with high speed turnouts but East Jn is more problematic. The track is optomised for the Derby route (track cant). The cheap option to improve Nuneaton times would be to reconfigure slowing down the Derby time (won't happen). Otherwise it will be a complete remodelling with reinstatement of 4 track split into 2x Derby and 2x Nuneaton with the junctions much further west.

The speeding up of Whitacre from 30 to 35mph has definitely made a difference but the current TSR at Washwood Heath really doesn't help. Whitacre can be straightended but would likely require the re-siting of two bridges.

The SRT for Voyagers on the route is pretty good - either 21 or 22 minutes.

 

[The Planner]

Otherwise it will be a complete remodelling with reinstatement of 4 track split into 2x Derby and 2x Nuneaton with the junctions much further west.

Which was the the original intention of the Water Orton re-signalling before the costs spiraled and it all got cut back to nothing.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Which was the the original intention of the Water Orton re-signalling before the costs spiraled and it all got cut back to nothing.

From the scheme plan I saw from the first Grip 4 attempt, it seemed to include provision for every "wish list" going at the time. That would have had a tremendous amount of PW alterations not only at Water Orton but at numerous other sites as well, no wonder it got cut back.

 

[sonic2009]

In regards to the Marston Vale line if LM didn't keep the line after 2017, who can you see running it? Unless its electrified then a TOC is going to have to keep DMUs shuttling from depot which could be miles away.

 

[Eagle]

Well it is going to be electrified as part of the electric spine and East West Rail.

Clearly it'll be run by whichever TOC runs the rest of EWR. Which at the moment is looking like either Chiltern or GW.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I'd imagine it will be GW if it is electric stock. Chiltern don't have an electric depot, and unlike GW I think they are highly unlikely to gain one anytime soon either.

 

[Qwerty133]

Pretty much everyday on the 16.09 Brum to Leicester although it has been better lately.

Wish they would couple the units before the 15:52 and get rid of the 16:09... or at least realise if they can only use one portion as the 17:16 not to use a two car over a voyager!!!