My idea to prevent the use of multiple tickets for one journey

[daodao]

If you walk up and ask for a combination of tickets then that's what you should be sold. If you just ask for a return to XYZ then you should be sold the cheapest valid through ticket for the journey you wish to make.

The whole issue of split ticketing should be dealt with by the GB railway system adopting rule 11 of the Irish Railways conditions of travel which states that:

11. Re-booking at intermediate stations 11.1 Except where specially authorised, passengers are not permitted to re-book at an intermediate station for the purpose of continuing their journey by the same train. Two or more tickets covering different portions of one journey are not available unless the fares paid for such tickets are equivalent in amount to the price of a single journey ticket between the same points. Any passenger using two or more tickets covering different portions of one journey will be liable to pay the full ordinary single fare for the journey made and he or she may be liable to prosecution.

https://www.irishrail.ie/Admin/IrishRail/media/Imported/conditionsoftravel1.pdf

 

[221129]

The whole issue of split ticketing should be dealt with by the GB railway system adopting rule 11 of the Irish Railways conditions of travel which states that:

11. Re-booking at intermediate stations 11.1 Except where specially authorised, passengers are not permitted to re-book at an intermediate station for the purpose of continuing their journey by the same train. Two or more tickets covering different portions of one journey are not available unless the fares paid for such tickets are equivalent in amount to the price of a single journey ticket between the same points. Any passenger using two or more tickets covering different portions of one journey will be liable to pay the full ordinary single fare for the journey made and he or she may be liable to prosecution.

https://www.irishrail.ie/Admin/IrishRail/media/Imported/conditionsoftravel1.pdf

I believe there was some legal case back in BR days that prevents that.

 

[yorkie]

The whole issue of split ticketing should be dealt with by the GB railway system adopting rule 11 of the Irish Railways conditions of travel which states that:

11. Re-booking at intermediate stations 11.1 Except where specially authorised, passengers are not permitted to re-book at an intermediate station for the purpose of continuing their journey by the same train. Two or more tickets covering different portions of one journey are not available unless the fares paid for such tickets are equivalent in amount to the price of a single journey ticket between the same points. Any passenger using two or more tickets covering different portions of one journey will be liable to pay the full ordinary single fare for the journey made and he or she may be liable to prosecution.

https://www.irishrail.ie/Admin/IrishRail/media/Imported/conditionsoftravel1.pdf

This isn't allowed because the Ticketing Settlement Agreement specifically states that a 'through fare' can consist of a combination of tickets.

The National Rail Conditions of carriage specifically allows it, due to the train companies being legally required to accept combinations of tickets and also becauset he rail industry often either encourages or mandates the use of a combination of tickets .

For example some train companies encourage the use of their own Advance fares and do not price '&Connections' options for some, or even all, relevant nearby stations. These companies typically recommend combining tickets in order to benefit from their Advance fares.

Other examples include products only being available in particular areas, certain Routeing options (e.g. including hovercraft ) only being available from certain stations, and many similar examples

Furthermore the permitted routes do not always include the fastest route. Although Rail Delivery Group claims passengers wish to travel via the shortest route, rather than the fastest, the reality is many passengers do want to take the fastest itinerary. There are numerous examples where this requires a combination of tickets.

And that's before we even get into Season tickets!

You have posted this proposal before. I rejected it then and I reject it again now.

See also: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rosecuting-me-for-using-split-tickets.204013/

 

[Purple Orange]

If the rail industry pricing mechanisms allow for a cheaper journey via split ticketing, why should a passenger be penalised for spotting the cheapest method of travel as advertised by TOCs?

 

[Starmill]

There's nothing practical that stops such a rule from being introduced, regardless of whether anyone pays attention to it. The government makes nonsense Regulations now in a wide variety of areas of life more important than rail transport, many of which are impossible to do any meaningful enforcement of, with nobody to stop them and a judiciary which quite frankly just doesn't want to get involved. It's simply a matter of what the government wants. If the government decides it wants such a rule one can easily be made.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe there was some legal case back in BR days that prevents that.

There was, yes.

In any case, why have a stupid rule preventing someone purchasing an extension ticket to one they already held?

 

[Gloster]

I believe there was some legal case back in BR days that prevents that.

Wasn’t it something to do with people buying the subsidised West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester passes, and then travelling on the fast trains across the Pennines via Standedge. For journeys like Leeds-Manchester the two passes came out cheaper than BR’s tickets. Both passes were valid to Marsden and I have a recollection that the ruling was known as the ‘Marsden rule’ for a while.

 

[SteveM70]

Absolute nonsense. If the railway insists on retaining an archaic, inconsistent fare structure, then passengers should be perfectly at liberty to use any combination of tickets for a journey

 

[JonathanH]

Absolute nonsense. If the railway insists on retaining an archaic, inconsistent fare structure, then passengers should be perfectly at liberty to use any combination of tickets for a journey

Even if it came up with what you might consider a modern, consistent fare structure, there would still be reasons to use a combination of tickets for a journey - eg if you had a blanket peak period for example. From a practical point of view, there will always be boundaries at which it would be advantageous to split tickets.

 

[PeterC]

Apart from extensions on season tickets I think it perfectly equitable to restrict splitting to interchange stations. We also need a more rational fare structure that eliminates the "need" for split ticketing.

This is a speculative forum, if the present rules don't allow this then surely we can speculate about changing the rules?

 

[JonathanH]

This is a speculative forum, if the present rules don't allow this then surely we can speculate about changing the rules?

Yes, but equally it is valid to suggest that the removal of the ability to combine tickets is not in any passenger's interest.

 

[Kilopylae]

How about a sort of "Price Match" scheme where a single through-ticket can be bought for the price of the cheapest split ticketing combination that would be valid? That way, customers would only ever have to hold one ticket for each journey, without losing any of their existing rights.

For instance, an Exeter St Davids to Basingstoke Super Off-Peak Day Return is usually £58.30, but with a split at Pinhoe, the journey can be done for £45.50. Under what I'm proposing, a ticket office would able to sell the Exeter St Davids to Basingstoke Super Off-Peak Day Return for £45.50 to any customer who could show that the combination splitting at Pinhoe would be valid.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The whole issue of split ticketing should be dealt with by the GB railway system adopting rule 11 of the Irish Railways conditions of travel...

Why would you even propose this and think it a good idea?

 

[SteveM70]

How about a sort of "Price Match" scheme where a single through-ticket can be bought for the price of the cheapest split ticketing combination that would be valid? That way, customers would only ever have to hold one ticket for each journey, without losing any of their existing rights.

But why? That seems like a back handed way of dealing with the symptoms of a dysfunctional railway. Surely the right fix is the root cause?

 

[Energy]

Why would you get rid of it? For example, if you have a season ticket to Milton Keynes but sometimes you need to visit an office in London you can use your perfectly fine season ticket but just buy the ticket from Milton Keynes to London for the remaining part.

 

[daodao]

Why would you even propose this and think it a good idea?

It is much simpler for all, and in the interests of revenue protection, to hold a single ticket for one's journey aboard a single train. It is practicable and enforceable to prohibit passengers from re-booking at an intermediate station for the purpose of continuing their journey by the same train. It should be possible to make tickets available and priced for all through journeys, so that there should be no need to rebook.

However, if a change of trains is required, then it would be impossible to enforce a rule requiring a single ticket for the entire journey, and in any case, as others have pointed out, there aren't through ticket prices for all journey permutations possible on the National Rail network in GB.

 

[Purple Orange]

It is much simpler for all, and in the interests of revenue protection, to hold a single ticket for one's journey aboard a single train. It is practicable and enforceable to prohibit passengers from re-booking at an intermediate station for the purpose of continuing their journey by the same train. It should be possible to make tickets available and priced for all through journeys, so that there should be no need to rebook.

However, if a change of trains is required, then it would be impossible to enforce a rule requiring a single ticket for the entire journey, and in any case, as others have pointed out, there aren't through ticket prices for all journey permutations possible on the National Rail network in GB.

So, as has been suggested above, if you have a season ticket for a certain portion of a line (let’s say Stockport-Manchester Piccadilly), but on a given day you are travelling to Liverpool, you are saying you can’t use the season ticket that you have paid for and must buy a duplicate ticket or the Stockport-Piccadilly leg?

 

[37424]

So, as has been suggested above, if you have a season ticket for a certain portion of a line (let’s say Stockport-Manchester Piccadilly), but on a given day you are travelling to Liverpool, you are saying you can’t use the season ticket that you have paid for and must buy a duplicate ticket or the Stockport-Piccadilly leg?

Only if you want to travel on the same train, obviously there is nothing to stop you getting off the train at Manchester and buying a ticket to Liverpool for the next train but clearly it would be much more inconvenient. Personally I think those Irish rail terms and conditions are outrageous, and my answer to that would be to opt for alternate transport.

 

[Purple Orange]

Only if you want to travel on the same train, obviously there is nothing to stop you getting off the train at Manchester and buying a ticket to Liverpool for the next train but clearly it would be much more inconvenient personally I think those Irish rail terms and conditions are outrageous, and my answer to that would be to opt for alternate transport.

Which would be a daft thing to do. Buying a ticket in advance for Manc-Liverpool, get on at Stockport using a season ticket to P14, get off with all the other people, get back on causing a blockage, then find another seat. Stupid idea.

 

[SteveM70]

It is much simpler for all, and in the interests of revenue protection, to hold a single ticket for one's journey aboard a single train.

But not in the interests of the passenger. Remind me why the railway exists?

 

[PeterC]

But not in the interests of the passenger. Remind me why the railway exists?

Is the present system really in the interests of passengers or just of ticketing geeks? The simple fact that this site needs to run workshops on ticketing shows that the system is broken.

If I want to make a journey I want to be quoted the best fare for the time of day and have it issued on a single coupon (physically or elecronically).

 

[SteveM70]

Is the present system really in the interests of passengers or just of ticketing geeks? The simple fact that this site needs to run workshops on ticketing shows that the system is broken.

If I want to make a journey I want to be quoted the best fare for the time of day and have it issued on a single coupon (physically or elecronically).

I quite agree - I’ve said for ages we need a coherent national ticketing system that works for the passenger, not the railway.

It would be great if split ticketing became obsolete because it had ceased to have any value; and that the cheapest ticket from A to B was always a ticket from A to B.

 

[Llandudno]

I quite agree - I’ve said for ages we need a coherent national ticketing system that works for the passenger, not the railway.

It would be great if split ticketing became obsolete because it had ceased to have any value; and that the cheapest ticket from A to B was always a ticket from A to B.

I am sure the only loser would be the knowledgeable passenger/rail enthusiast!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It would be great if split ticketing became obsolete because it had ceased to have any value; and that the cheapest ticket from A to B was always a ticket from A to B.

Absolutely agree, but until such that time that this is demonstrably the case, the "Irish" solution of banning same train split ticketing isn't the way to fix the problem.

 

[Journeyman]

I quite agree - I’ve said for ages we need a coherent national ticketing system that works for the passenger, not the railway.

It would be great if split ticketing became obsolete because it had ceased to have any value; and that the cheapest ticket from A to B was always a ticket from A to B.

But what if you're travelling from A to B, then back from B, past A and onto C?

 

[peteb]

It is much simpler for all, and in the interests of revenue protection, to hold a single ticket for one's journey aboard a single train. It is practicable and enforceable to prohibit passengers from re-booking at an intermediate station for the purpose of continuing their journey by the same train. It should be possible to make tickets available and priced for all through journeys, so that there should be no need to rebook.

However, if a change of trains is required, then it would be impossible to enforce a rule requiring a single ticket for the entire journey, and in any case, as others have pointed out, there aren't through ticket prices for all journey permutations possible on the National Rail network in GB.

But this is nonsense. If a train has a 10 minute booked stop to, say, reverse what's to stop anyone getting off, purchasing a ticket from machine or booking office and then re-boarding the same train? It's likely the conductor might have changed too if it's a long journey. Surely if you have tickets to cover the entire journey, obviously splitting at a stop not a pass, and dont occupy anyone else's reserved seat theres no issue? If the train companies made it easy to select a seat if you already hold a ticket all the musical chairs played on cross country etc would be a thing of the past, and would undoubtedly make long distance travel less stressful.

 

[Bevan Price]

I quite agree - I’ve said for ages we need a coherent national ticketing system that works for the passenger, not the railway.

It would be great if split ticketing became obsolete because it had ceased to have any value; and that the cheapest ticket from A to B was always a ticket from A to B.

A lot of problems would be solved if fares reverted to the basic "x" pence per mile format...(and preferably not with "x" being excessively large.)

 

[JonathanH]

A lot of problems would be solved if fares reverted to the basic "x" pence per mile format...(and preferably not with "x" being excessively large.)

That simply isn't true because there a multiple routes available in some cases and the demand on different routes does not support a basic "x" pence per mile format.

 

[Journeyman]

A lot of problems would be solved if fares reverted to the basic "x" pence per mile format...(and preferably not with "x" being excessively large.)

I'd actually say we're better off as we are - BR dumped that model years ago, and for good reason. It allows far more effective yield management, and this in turn allows the system overall to generate more revenue and be more financially viable.

 

[Kilopylae]

A lot of problems would be solved if fares reverted to the basic "x" pence per mile format...(and preferably not with "x" being excessively large.)

Nowhere near as many as would be created! Pricing routes based on length alone with no regard to speed, demand, ... , would be—I'd have said quite obviously, actually—ridiculous. Fares should certainly be more logical but there isn't a simple blunt formula like '£x per mile' or whatever that will be appropriate for the diverse variety of services available on the network.