National Grid, payment not to use electricity and the cost and risk of generation strategy.

[Peter Sarf]

I too got easily have the heating off for 3 hours, but it is gas so not going to make much difference as only the pumps etc using electric

Can avoid using tumble dryer, don’t yet have an electric car, only ever do laundry in morning, but do have electric ovens and induction hob and normally eat around 6pm so going to use oven during premium period.

To be honest, in 2 or 3 years probably change to an electric car, would be happy to have solar panels, and one of those battery storage units (power wall?), and so would rather have my current Government heating subsidy as a grant towards something that will give me benefit for multiple winters, once that is all fitted and I can set it to use stored power rather than grid power at times happy to have different tariffs at different times of day.

I reckon most people will not bother cutting back voluntarily. Not unless there is a rebate for doing so. I reckon the newspapers etc will be publishing times and areas for power cuts and then you might be lucky if any individual power cut is not actioned or is curtailed.

A better use for the energy subsidy would have been insulating more homes. Granted energy efficiency schemes might not produce results soon enough. But they would be a simple way to reduce what we use in the first place rather than papering over the cracks. Instead we are paying money to people so they can carry on using what we are short of !.

Yes, I was thinking of something like a Red/Amber/Green rating for each hour. Green would mean there's plenty of power so things like tumble drying should take place during these times. Amber would be that there's enough power, but don't shift activities here from the Red hours. Red would mean there is a significant risk and people should make every effort to reduce consumption.

They could allow people to sign up for alerts to warn them when red hours have been declared. Depending on how many red hours there are, they could also be communicated through the media, e.g. an extra map at the end of the weather forecast.

Surely as the UK is on a national grid there should be not much regional variation in availability of electricity ?.

Yes, I was thinking of something like a Red/Amber/Green rating for each hour. Green would mean there's plenty of power so things like tumble drying should take place during these times. Amber would be that there's enough power, but don't shift activities here from the Red hours. Red would mean there is a significant risk and people should make every effort to reduce consumption.

They could allow people to sign up for alerts to warn them when red hours have been declared. Depending on how many red hours there are, they could also be communicated through the media, e.g. an extra map at the end of the weather forecast.

No need for this amber red stuff online/livre. It is all fairly predictable. See the graph in the post by @Domhy245 below.

Basically need to cut back during 16:00-19:00 (so red). But 08:00-16:00 would be worth avoiding (so amber)

You mean, a genuinely useful way to manage demand and therefore reduce generation costs and challenges?



Only if they get the pricing wrong, and lock it in. The idea is to turn the evening peak into a lower but more sustained demand (flattening the curve, if you will..) - so the normal drop that would occur is replaced by the "surge" as the shifted demand comes on - electricity demand is fairly well understood by this point, so hopefully they'll be able to set the prices at the right levels to achieve the desired effect

View attachment 123640



Quite possibly, but then again people have been doing overnight laundry to take advantage of economy 7 rates since the late 70s. Of course, given the advanced notice people are given of the need to demand shift, some people may be able to do their laundry earlier in the day to achieve the same effect, or immediately after the end of their reduction period - no need to default straight to 5AM!

 

[DelayRepay]

Note that the two I mentioned don't reduce electricity usage, they just flag up when it is low carbon.

That's what I want. I've reduced my electric usage as much as I reasonably can (I am not sitting in the dark unless there's a power cut!). But I am happy to try to re-distribute some of my usage to times when it will have the least impact.

 

[Noddy]

A better use for the energy subsidy would have been insulating more homes. Granted energy efficiency schemes might not produce results soon enough. But they would be a simple way to reduce what we use in the first place rather than papering over the cracks. Instead we are paying money to people so they can carry on using what we are short of !.

Indeed, but one of our lovely former Prime Minister’s thought it would be a good idea to cut the ‘green c***’. His incredibly stupid decision now costs us all tens or hundreds of pounds a year.

Cameron’s decision to cut ‘green crap’ now costs each household in England £150 a year | Energy bills | The Guardian

Ending onshore wind projects, solar subsidies and energy efficiency schemes has added to inflated bills, study finds

amp.theguardian.com

 

[DelayRepay]

I reckon most people will not bother cutting back voluntarily. Not unless there is a rebate for doing so. I reckon the newspapers etc will be publishing times and areas for power cuts and then you might be lucky if any individual power cut is not actioned or is curtailed.

I think some would. Some people care about the environment so would try to avoid using electricity at peak times when it may mean more fossil fuels being burned. Other people might care about the risk of power outages and therefore try to mitigate this risk by reducing their usage.

Some people won't care, but I think a lot of people will. Look at how many people recycle waste even though it's not mandatory, or (whatever you think of them) how many people were willing to follow Covid rules for the 'greater good'.

I do not think we are a country full of selfish people and I think a reasonable number of people would do their best to help - enough to make a difference, even if only a small difference.

A better use for the energy subsidy would have been insulating more homes. Granted energy efficiency schemes might not produce results soon enough. But they would be a simple way to reduce what we use in the first place rather than papering over the cracks. Instead we are paying money to people so they can carry on using what we are short of !.

I agree - accepting there are issues around supply of materials and labour, we could have done something. E.g. giving free loft insulation material to anyone who was willing and able to install it themselves (or had friends/relatives who could install it for them). It would not have solved the problem, but it would have helped.

Surely as the UK is on a national grid there should be not much regional variation in availability of electricity ?.

I think there is - if it's windy in Scotland so there are lots of renewables, but cold and wet in London, is the grid able to shift that much power down the country? I'm not sure of the answer.

No need for this amber red stuff online/livre. It is all fairly predictable. See the graph in the post by @Domhy245 below.

Basically need to cut back during 16:00-19:00 (so red). But 08:00-16:00 would be worth avoiding (so amber)

I don't think 16:00 - 19:00 would be red every day. The rebate scheme only seems to apply on certain days, and the plans for power outages suggest they will only happen on certain days, decided the day before based on projected supply and demand. Red would only apply when there was a serious risk to supply, not at generic times each day.

Likewise, some days might be green if it's sunny/windy and there are plenty of renewables. Other days might be amber at the same times if there's less wind/sun.

 

[skyhigh]

First session for me tomorrow 5-6pm. £2.25 bill credit for every kWh less than my average I use.

 

[Dai Corner]

I think some would. Some people care about the environment so would try to avoid using electricity at peak times when it may mean more fossil fuels being burned.

I'm really surprised that the Green lobby haven't been shouting this from the rooftops for years.

First session for me tomorrow 5-6pm. £2.25 bill credit for every kWh less than my average I use.

Nice one.

 

[Hadders]

Do smart meters now support off-peak reduced tariffs? My parents used to be on a tariff that was cheaper in the evenings. They switched to a smart meter and then discovered it didn't support that type of tariff, so they ended up paying the same rate 24/7. It ended up costing them more money.

Yes.

I had a smart meter installed years ago. I've recently switched to Economy 7 because I've recently acquired an electric car. I had to have a new (2 rate) smart meter installed but it all works fine.

 

[Ediswan]

First session for me tomorrow 5-6pm. £2.25 bill credit for every kWh less than my average I use.

Overall average or average 5-6pm ? Do they pay for partial kWh saved ?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

First session for me tomorrow 5-6pm. £2.25 bill credit for every kWh less than my average I use.

Seems generous. What's the typical cost of domestic electricity just now? 34p per kWh?

 

[GusB]

EDF is doing a limited trial of the scheme.

Our guide on power cuts

We've pulled together a helpful guide on what to do to plan for power cuts and answer some of the questions regarding emergency nationwide power cuts.

www.edfenergy.com

Can I take part?
Sorry, not everyone can take part in Demand Flexibility at this early stage of the trial

We've selected a small group of customers, based on customer data and criteria from National Gri

We'll send invites to this group of customers by email in late November – so keep an eye on your inbox. If you get an invite, it will tell you everything you need to know about Demand Flexibility and how it works.

I'll be keeping an eye out for an email later on this month.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think some would. Some people care about the environment so would try to avoid using electricity at peak times when it may mean more fossil fuels being burned. Other people might care about the risk of power outages and therefore try to mitigate this risk by reducing their usage.

Some people won't care, but I think a lot of people will. Look at how many people recycle waste even though it's not mandatory, or (whatever you think of them) how many people were willing to follow Covid rules for the 'greater good'.

I do not think we are a country full of selfish people and I think a reasonable number of people would do their best to help - enough to make a difference, even if only a small difference.


I agree - accepting there are issues around supply of materials and labour, we could have done something. E.g. giving free loft insulation material to anyone who was willing and able to install it themselves (or had friends/relatives who could install it for them). It would not have solved the problem, but it would have helped.


I think there is - if it's windy in Scotland so there are lots of renewables, but cold and wet in London, is the grid able to shift that much power down the country? I'm not sure of the answer.



I don't think 16:00 - 19:00 would be red every day. The rebate scheme only seems to apply on certain days, and the plans for power outages suggest they will only happen on certain days, decided the day before based on projected supply and demand. Red would only apply when there was a serious risk to supply, not at generic times each day.

Likewise, some days might be green if it's sunny/windy and there are plenty of renewables. Other days might be amber at the same times if there's less wind/sun.

My bold, good point.

First session for me tomorrow 5-6pm. £2.25 bill credit for every kWh less than my average I use.

Hope it goes well (er does not go !). Don't forget to post the results.

 

[skyhigh]

Seems generous. What's the typical cost of domestic electricity just now? 34p per kWh?

I'm still on a (very) generous legacy fixed tariff - 12.9p per kWh during 'peak' hours. So moving usage will be very lucrative for me.

Overall average or average 5-6pm ? Do they pay for partial kWh saved ?

As far as I can tell, average in the 5-6pm slot. Don't know if they pay for partial kWh - I will report back when (if) I find out.

Hope it goes well (er does not go !). Don't forget to post the results.

I will indeed. I can fairly easily shift all my usage out of that slot so it will be interesting to see how much they reckon I reduce my usage by compared to my 'average'.

 

[DelayRepay]

I will indeed. I can fairly easily shift all my usage out of that slot so it will be interesting to see how much they reckon I reduce my usage by compared to my 'average'.

if I had that offer, I would be tempted to make it one of my 'office' days because I don't normally get home until after 6pm. On the other hand, the fact I normally do two or three office days a week means my average usage during that hour is probably too low to benefit much anyway.

 

[The Lad]

A lot will depend over what period they calculate the average, a week? a month? a year?

 

[skyhigh]

A lot will depend over what period they calculate the average, a week? a month? a year?

Found out it's an average over the past 10 days.

 

[Ediswan]

Found out it's an average over the past 10 days.

Do you happen to know what that is ?

 

[skyhigh]

Do you happen to know what that is ?

A relatively tiny amount for me given I was on late shifts last week and my wife was working late. It's done per half hour slot so my average is 0.4kWh for 1700-1730, and 0.22kWh for 1730-1800. So the most I could earn will be around £1.40.

As an aside, this level of detail is something I find very useful from a smart meter. I can see full 30 min usage data for the last 2+ years and can access it via an API to see how various tariffs stack up for me.

 

[Bald Rick]

Note that the two I mentioned don't reduce electricity usage, they just flag up when it is low carbon.

This is true. But, in theory it is still useful. This winter, power outages, whilst relatively unlikely, are more likely to happen when the wind isn’t blowing and we are relying on gas as the main base load. In theory, if the grid is on a ‘low carbon’ time, ie it is windy, then we should have more power available and less chance of outages. The converse applies too.

Surely as the UK is on a national grid there should be not much regional variation in availability of electricity ?.

I think there is - if it's windy in Scotland so there are lots of renewables, but cold and wet in London, is the grid able to shift that much power down the country? I'm not sure of the answer.

There is considerable variation in ‘availability‘ of electricity around the country, partly because the centres of high demand are some distance from the production ‘supply’, and more recently because of variability in supply caused by increased wind power. Getting demand matched to supply is basically what the National Grid does, but sometimes there is insufficient network capacity to do so.

For example if it is windy in Scotland but not in the south, it is sometimes the case that Scottish wind farms are paid to switch out, yet we will still pay to import power from, say, France or Belgium. Something like this happened in the summer during the hot spell when demand for power in London and Kent could not be met from U.K. sources, so NG paid Belgium nearly £10,000 per MWh for some power through the interconnector. (That’s the equivalent of £10 per domestic ‘unit’ of kWh.)

To help solve this we have built and are building more interconnectors: one to Norway (1.4GW) was commissioned a year ago, a third to France (1GW) commissioned in May. The Viking link to Denmark (1.4GW) is commissioned in about a year’s time, and a link to Germany (1.4GW) is just starting construction now with commissioning around 2027.

There are also several proposals for domestic offshore links, including one between Suffolk and Kent, and two down the east coast from Scotland to Durham / Yorkshire. This is all to help getting power from Scottish and North Sea wind farms down to the south.

 

[The Lad]

As well as the undersea link from SW Scotland to North Wales which was cheaper and quicker to build rather than go through planning for a land link.
It would seem that if there is no disadvantage to individuals consuming in the peak, it would be possible to shift consumption to the peak to give a better chance of being able to subsequently achieve a reduction on peak use when incentivised.
Unintended consequence?

 

[brad465]

Last night there was a period where the price was negative, so customers would have been paid to use electricity. Pumped storage was certainly taking advantage to fill up, but somehow I don't see households getting any benefit.

 

[Bald Rick]

but somehow I don't see households getting any benefit.

Those on the most flexible octopus tariff would have!

And it will be taken into account in the calculations for the next round of energy price caps.

 

[skyhigh]

Got the results in, 65% reduction in my usage so earned 75p. Pretty much all I did was shift cooking until after 6 and not stick the kettle or washing on, so fairly happy with that.

For what it's worth my mum also took part, and earned around £2.50 without much effort.

 

[jon0844]

Shell doesn't seem to be participating, but I share my smart meter data with Loop - and they're offering £3 per KWh on their own scheme, which will be a credit paid to be independently of my Shell bill.

As said above, it will be based around the data they already have, which means they know my average consumption and the times I consume it.

So far, I've registered my interest but not heard anything more.

Turn Down and Save with Loop: Rewards You Can Earn

Make a difference to the planet and your pocket by joining Loop's free Turn Down and Save scheme. Download the app!

loop.homes

 

[DelayRepay]

Shell doesn't seem to be participating, but I share my smart meter data with Loop - and they're offering £3 per KWh on their own scheme, which will be a credit paid to be independently of my Shell bill.

As said above, it will be based around the data they already have, which means they know my average consumption and the times I consume it.

So far, I've registered my interest but not heard anything more.

Turn Down and Save with Loop: Rewards You Can Earn

Make a difference to the planet and your pocket by joining Loop's free Turn Down and Save scheme. Download the app!

loop.homes

Thanks for this Jon, I've just signed up.

My supplier (Bulb) isn't participating either so Loop's a useful option (even though they pay in Amazon vouchers and keep 20%). Hopefully the Bulb accounts will be moved to Octopus soon and have the option to take part directly.

 

[brad465]

Electricity is currently free, helped by almost 80% coming from wind (circa 20GW). This is where energy storage potential is best, get the excess wind power stored so on cold days with little or no wind there's still some power to be had.

 

[Bald Rick]

Electricity is currently free, helped by almost 80% coming from wind (circa 20GW). This is where energy storage potential is best, get the excess wind power stored so on cold days with little or no wind there's still some power to be had.

Indeed. We broke the record for wind generation last night, with over 20GW (I saw it at 20.48GW around 2200). We were also exporting power at near record rates - 5GW for most of the day and over 6GW at some times.

With another 2GW of wind coming on line each year for the next few years, situations like this are going to be more common.

 

[devon_metro]

Electricity is currently free, helped by almost 80% coming from wind (circa 20GW). This is where energy storage potential is best, get the excess wind power stored so on cold days with little or no wind there's still some power to be had.

That is the "system price" you refer to. Not much electricity is traded at that price and no domestic tariffs would be linked to it. The day ahead price, which the majority of electricity not purchased on longer term contracts would be traded at, was still above 0.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not much electricity is traded at that price and no domestic tariffs would be linked to it.

The Octopus ‘Agile’ tariff is linked to the wholesale price, and changes every half hour.

 

[Class 317]

Heard a report on 5 live that EON are reporting a 10-15% reduction in electricity demand in the last couple of months versus previous years.

 

[devon_metro]

The Octopus ‘Agile’ tariff is linked to the wholesale price, and changes every half hour.

Agile is linked to the day ahead wholesale price, not the "system price" as used on the website quoted above. System price is more of a live price and wouldn't be helpful for Agile as you can't necessarily predict it.