National Rail & British Transport Police campaign regarding sexual harassment on the Railway

[NoOnesFool]

This would seem to be a potential gift for such individuals, whose motivation is little to do with privacy and everything to do with their own self-importance.

Exactly! It's such an ambiguous thing that it is definitely open to abuse. We are all looked at from the moment we leave our houses.

 

[DarloRich]

Exactly! It's such an ambiguous thing that it is definitely open to abuse. We are all looked at from the moment we leave our houses.

It is only "ambiguous" if you want to escalate a molehill into a mountain. The thing is I think you know this.

 

[NoOnesFool]

don’t object to the cause behind the campaign, however it sounds like the wording needs tightening up a bit. The fact that people have had to clarify it here would suggest there’s too much room for interpretation.

Absolutely! I might add that the emphasis of said poster is on 'Staring', it is only in the small print that sexual harrassment is mentioned.

I support campaigns to reduce sexual assaults (and no harrassment doesn't just happen to women, I saw a woman on a train ask him to flash at her and he became embarrassed but politely declined) however, I think this poster is a mistake and confuses things and also makes the campaign seem ridiculous. They should have stuck to: No Pressing, no touching without permission, no threatening and no flashing. I'm actually thinking about sending a letter of complaint to British Transport Police and National Rail about this.

 

[O L Leigh]

The fact that people have had to clarify it here would suggest there’s too much room for interpretation.

No, it's got more to do with RailUK running to form in that someone is looking to stretch the interpretation of something beyond it's logical limits to make some nebulous point. If this empowers people who feel threatened to do something about it then I wholeheartedly support it.

They should have stuck to: No Pressing, no touching without permission, no threatening and no flashing. I'm actually thinking about sending a letter of complaint to British Transport Police and National Rail about this.

Really...??

"Pardon me, miss. I couldn't help but notice that you're an attractive young lady. I wonder, if it's not too much trouble, whether you would permit me to fondle your breasts?"

 

[Ashley Hill]

Perhaps it's time to lock the thread?

 

[skyhigh]

I'm actually thinking about sending a letter of complaint to British Transport Police and National Rail about this.

Good luck with that.

 

[bramling]

No, it's got more to do with RailUK running to form in that someone is looking to stretch the interpretation of something beyond it's logical limits to make some nebulous point. If this empowers people who feel threatened to do something about it then I wholeheartedly support it.

I’m not sure that’s the case on this one. Many people don’t really like sharing space with strangers as it is, not least in the current climate where we’ve spent the last year and a half being conditioned into thinking that everyone else is a threat to our personal health, yet shared space is part and parcel of rail travel. I’m not sure it’s helpful having posters which seem to insinuate that making eye contact with someone else is now a reportable crime.

I fully support the rationale behind it, but the execution is clumsy.

 

[Nova1]

Personally I think it's great to have a campaign to get those who feel affected to speak up. Many incidents go unreported (and unpunished), making the railway and general public areas worse for everyone.

 

[O L Leigh]

I’m not sure it’s helpful having posters which seem to insinuate that making eye contact with someone else is now a reportable crime.

I've yet to see the poster in question, but from what the OP says it seems to explicitly say "staring". Making eye contact is very different from staring and I don't agree that it includes this insinuation, and nor do I believe that it will be used as a whinger's charter.

 

[dosxuk]

I’m not sure it’s helpful having posters which seem to insinuate that making eye contact with someone else is now a reportable crime.

It doesn't do anything of the sort. It says that intrusive staring of a sexual nature won't be tolerated.

I'm genuinely concerned by the number of posters on this thread who don't seem to know the difference between looking at someone / glancing at someone / seeing someone walk past and staring at them in an aggressive or sexual manner. The latter has never been acceptable, and yet people are here trying to justify that being told that is some sort of affront on their rights.

 

[43066]

It doesn't do anything of the sort. It says that intrusive staring of a sexual nature won't be tolerated.

I'm genuinely concerned by the number of posters on this thread who don't seem to know the difference between looking at someone / glancing at someone / seeing someone walk past and staring at them in an aggressive or sexual manner. The latter has never been acceptable, and yet people are here trying to justify that being told that is some sort of affront on their rights.

That is absolutely not what anyone is saying.

 

[ainsworth74]

I've yet to see the poster in question, but from what the OP says it seems to explicitly say "staring". Making eye contact is very different from staring and I don't agree that it includes this insinuation, and nor do I believe that it will be used as a whinger's charter.

See below:

Aha, here is the staring one that I saw (and I assume the OP) did as well:

(Poster says "Staring" in large font with the 'a' and 'g' altered to be two angry looking eyes. Underneath it says in smaller font but all capitals: "Intrusive staring of a sexual nature is sexual harassment and is not tolerated" and underneath that is the usual contact information for BTP)

Rail industry campaign to crack down on sexual harassment

Rail industry campaign will raise awareness about what constitutes sexual harassment, encouraging reporting and helping to make sure there is no unsafe space on the railway Research shows people don’t realise that behaviours like wolf whistling, leering/staring or deliberately invading personal...

media.raildeliverygroup.com

Personally I think that's very clear on what is an issue...

 

[O L Leigh]

Well, there we are then. It's front and centre and very clear about the intent. I see no issue about that.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Well, there we are then. It's front and centre and very clear about the intent. I see no issue about that.

Can you tell me how you would know the starer's intent?

 

[O L Leigh]

Can you tell me how you would know the starer's intent?

See below.

Menace, like offence, is not in the actions or intent of the person carrying out an act but in the perception of the person towards whom it is directed. It doesn't matter if a person intends to offend or menace them, if that person feels offended or menaced then that is more than sufficient.

 

[Journeyman]

I'm genuinely concerned by the number of posters on this thread who don't seem to know the difference between looking at someone / glancing at someone / seeing someone walk past and staring at them in an aggressive or sexual manner. The latter has never been acceptable, and yet people are here trying to justify that being told that is some sort of affront on their rights.

I agree, this has got absolutely nothing to do with casual, normal everyday eye contact, and covers something entirely different. Several people here appear to be being obtuse, ignorant, or attempting to defend seriously bad behaviour.

Can you tell me how you would know the starer's intent?

I think to any reasonable human being the sort of behaviour being referred to here would be pretty obvious.

It strikes me as pretty worrying that you're unable or unwilling to recognise the difference between normal everyday conduct and problematic behaviour.

 

[nlogax]

I'm actually thinking about sending a letter of complaint to British Transport Police and National Rail about this.

Do let us know how that turns out.

 

[FGW_DID]

Aha, here is the staring one that I saw (and I assume the OP) did as well:

(Poster says "Staring" in large font with the 'a' and 'g' altered to be two angry looking eyes. Underneath it says in smaller font but all capitals: "Intrusive staring of a sexual nature is sexual harassment and is not tolerated" and underneath that is the usual contact information for BTP)

I don’t see anywhere on the poster where it mentions gender but straightaway the forum defaults to the Man = drooling pervert! Woman = victim!

Just because the majority may be men doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen the other way round, a bit like domestic violence. It just doesn’t get reported or taken as seriously.

 

[Journeyman]

I don’t see anywhere on the poster where it mentions gender but straightaway the forum defaults to the Man = drooling pervert! Woman = victim!

That's usually how it pans out.

Just because the majority may be men doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen the other way round, a bit like domestic violence. It just doesn’t get reported or taken as seriously.

It happens extremely rarely. The simple fact of the matter is that virtually all women have, at some point, been made to feel extremely threatened and uncomfortable by men behaving in a way that should be completely unacceptable.

 

[NoOnesFool]

See below.

So, if you boarded a train clapping your hands, I could find that menacing and call the police because I feel it is menacing? The world's gone barmy.

I don’t see anywhere on the poster where it mentions gender but straightaway the forum defaults to the Man = drooling pervert! Woman = victim!

The 'knights in shining armour' on this forum were very quick to jump to that conclusion and display their 'heroism'.

 

[O L Leigh]

So, if you boarded a train clapping your hands, I could find that menacing and call the police because I feel it is menacing? The world's gone barmy.

So far as I'm aware, no-one is campaigning against people clapping their hands as that it not often seen as menacing behaviour. That you're attempting to draw a parallel between someone clapping their hands and genuinely threatening behaviour, as described in the poster you saw, is barmy.

As I mentioned above, you are simply trying to stretch this issue far beyond it's logical limit in order to make some nebulous point. I cannot see what there is to object to.

**EDIT**

However, to answer your ludicrous question, if my hand-clapping causes you to fear for your safety then yes you should report me. You might have a hard time explaining why it's so terrifying to you, but the BTP reporting service is there for issues such as these and you would be well within your rights to take advantage of that.

 

[Highlandspring]

The 'knights in shining armour' on this forum were very quick to jump to that conclusion and display their 'heroism'.

It's not worth engaging with you now, you're just trolling.

 

[Journeyman]

It's not worth engaging with you now, you're just trolling.

The problem is I don't think he is. He thinks he's right, which is worse.

 

[Volvictof]

The problem is I don't think he is. He thinks he's right, which is worse.

Yep, he’s already used the “but what about meeeeee” argument in the form of “but it happens to men too”

But address that…. Yes it does, in vastly smaller numbers and mostly they aren’t afraid for their lives when it happens. Whereas most women I know put up with things like this on a daily basis and have to worry about getting home safely on a daily basis.

To address his other concern about someone not liking the fact that you’ve glanced at them multiple times in one journey and then reporting you to the police… well I’m sure that’s a possibility… probably not very likely but I’ll give him the fact that it’s a possibility. But then when reported to the police, the police have a common sense approach and are able to say “yeah that doesn’t sound like anything so we’re going to leave it“ or at the most have a word with you and say “have you been sexually staring at this lady?” And you reply “no, we’re just sat across from each other and we’ve caught eye contact a few times” and they would say “ohhh okay no problem, I have basic human reasoning skills and can see that you are being genuine and your story checks out”

Yorky, if you’re really worried about making eye contact with someone accidentally just remember: they made eye contact with you too… have them arrested first!!

 

[NoOnesFool]

Just because I have a different opinion to you, it does not make me a troll. I suggest if you can't handle the debate of a forum, that you take yourself elsewhere.

It's not worth engaging with you now, you're just trolling.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

They should have stuck to: No Pressing, no touching without permission, no threatening and no flashing. I'm actually thinking about sending a letter of complaint to British Transport Police and National Rail about this.

Ha! Good .luck with that

 

[Merseysider]

I would like to hope that the majority of people here can tell the difference between men staring at a woman for some time, and accidental eye contact/looking out the window near her. I’m fairly certain the majority of women could tell the difference too.

And yes, this also applies vice versa, but the reality is that the vast majority of sexual offence perpetrators are male.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I would like to hope that the majority of people here can tell the difference between men staring at a woman for some time, and accidental eye contact/looking out the window near her. I’m fairly certain the majority of women could tell the difference too.

And yes, this also applies vice versa, but the reality is that the vast majority of sexual offence perpetrators are male.

Actually, it would seem the opposite if any of the replies are anything to go by.

But then, you might as well report those on the ASD spectrum as many do stare or look at people for prolonged periods to observe and learn body language

 

[Journeyman]

But then, you might as well report those on the ASD spectrum as many do stare or look at people for prolonged periods to observe and learn body language.

Those are about the only people for whom this might prove genuinely problematic, although again, I hope the police would be aware enough to deal with such cases appropriately.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

A nervous female may think just being glanced at is staring

The danger here is that if you get a young man who is let's say, very interested in women and a then a woman who is a nervous wreck he might give a her a look up and down and then she goes and reports me. He is then screwed all because shes a wreck.

the world isn’t only inhabited by middle aged male railway enthusiasts

Can you imagine, think how many railtours we would have