Network North Electrification Projects

[The exile]

No need, after a brief dalliance with the LDs Harrogate is once again a fairly safe Tory seat!

Are there going to be any of those in 2024?

 

[Bob Price]

And now they have said that none of the projects listed are nailed on, but examples of what might happen if there was any money available. Which there isn't. This article from the Guardian outlines exactly what is happening and how it's more of a wish list than an actual list. So how many groups who were getting excited about things are now going to be disappointed?

HS2: announced transport projects were just ‘examples’, says minister

Documents detailing projects to be funded with savings from scrapping HS2 deleted from government website

www.theguardian.com

 

[Halifaxlad]

And now they have said that none of the projects listed are nailed on, but examples of what might happen if there was any money available. Which there isn't.

I think we need to distinguish between projects to be delivered by Combined authorities and projects delivered by the goverment!

 

[deltic08]

No need, after a brief dalliance with the LDs Harrogate is once again a fairly safe Tory seat!

I would not say Harrogate is a safe Tory seat in this political climate and LD successes in recent by-elections . As you say, Tories took the seat from the Lib Dems in 2010.
The Leeds-Harrogate-York loop should be electrified as both Leeds and York hubs are already wired, feeder stations at both places have been or are being beefed up to allow more electric trains to operate including feeding the Loop from each end and there will be 9 spare class 323 units not cascaded from the Midlands able to displace 9 diesel units allocated to provide the current timetable.
The service is mainly provided by high geared, 100mph express 170 diesel units that are most unsuitable for a stopping service on a 60mph max linespeed. 323 units with a high acceleration rate should be able to reduce journey times by 6 minutes, one minute per station stop.
The Loop is 86 stkm in length so should only be a fraction of £34billion at around £150M.
I agree that purely rail infrastructure money has been repurposed to road improvement money that should be from road tax money. That one was slipped through.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Source for that?

I'm sure it was a joke.
But if you are costing electrification by stkm, you need to look at reducing the stkm!

There is some merit in looking at the railway on Anglesey - 1tph (a few more early and late) is very light traffic.
Nuclear traffic to Valley used to be part of the mix, but no longer.
The Llandudno branch is very quiet too, little more than 1tph.
Both routes are still outposts of manual signalling. When resignalling comes, I'm sure the amount of track will be part of the equation.

 

[HSTEd]

The Loop is 86 stkm in length so should only be a fraction of £34billion at around £150M.
I agree that purely rail infrastructure money has been repurposed to road improvement money that should be from road tax money. That one was slipped through.

Based on current costs from Midland Mainline reported by some on here (Bald Rick et al), we would be looking at more like £340m, not £150m.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

Rolling this lot out would reinforce Northern's plan to acquire bi-modes capable of EMU conversion.
TfW will need bi-modes to make sense of the North Wales electrification, as well as EMUs for Holyhead/Llandudno-Manchester/Crewe services.
.

Interestingly, there were about eight men wearing black polo-tops with Northern logos eating breakfast in the Premier Inn opposite Norwich station one morning in late September

Could they have been visiting Crown Point to learn about Greater Anglia's FLIRTS?

 

[Halifaxlad]

Based on current costs from Midland Mainline reported by some on here (Bald Rick et al), we would be looking at more like £340m, not £150m.

Either way it would still allow 170s to be cascaded which will become more important as the 158s get older. As I doubt lines like the S&C will be suitable for battery bi-modes.

 

[anthony263]

Plus considering the state of the works at Temple Meads, electrification surely can't begin for several more years until all that's out of the way.

Temple meads needs to be wired as a matter of urgency would help GWR as they could run some emus fitted with batteries

 

[Bald Rick]

Either way it would still allow 170s to be cascaded which will become more important as the 158s get older. As I doubt lines like the S&C will be suitable for battery bi-modes.

You can buy a lot of hybrid trains for £300m.

And everywhere is suitable for battery bi modes, so long as there are charging islands of electrification.

 

[deltic08]

You can buy a lot of hybrid trains for £300m.

And everywhere is suitable for battery bi modes, so long as there are charging islands of electrification.

and freight remains diesel hauled?

 

[Halifaxlad]

You can buy a lot of hybrid trains for £300m.

And everywhere is suitable for battery bi modes, so long as there are charging islands of electrification.

Do you really think its suitable to put 'charging islands of electrification' on the S&C and hold up services so that they can charge ?

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you really think its suitable to put 'charging islands of electrification' on the S&C

Yes

and hold up services so that they can charge ?

Why would they be held up?

 

[Halifaxlad]

Why would they be held up?

How else are they supposed to charge if the train is moving away from them ?

 

[Bald Rick]

How else are they supposed to charge if the train is moving away from them ?

Battery trains can charge directly from OLE or third rail on the move. See the Cardiff Valleys or Merseyrail.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Battery trains can charge directly from OLE or third rail on the move. See the Cardiff Valleys or Merseyrail.

The purpose of bi-modes is because we haven't wired everything yet.

I doubt the S&C will be wired anytime soon!

 

[HSTEd]

The purpose of bi-modes is because we haven't wired everything yet.

I doubt the S&C will be wired anytime soon!

The S&C route is actually electrified for a significant portion of the route.
The Carlisle station approaches are electrified as is the section between Leeds and Skipton.

 

[The Planner]

The S&C route is actually electrified for a significant portion of the route.
The Carlisle station approaches are electrified as is the section between Leeds and Skipton.

The difficult bit isnt though.

 

[childwallblues]

Surely it makes absolutly NO SENCE without extension to Warrington and Crewe

And of course to Halton Junction as well.

 

[Bald Rick]

I doubt the S&C will be wired anytime soon!

I agree 100%, but nevertheless using battery bimodes is definitely feasible.

 

[deltic08]

The S&C route is actually electrified for a significant portion of the route.
The Carlisle station approaches are electrified as is the section between Leeds and Skipton.

There isn't enough traffic on the S&C to justify electrification. To operate battery bimode trains electrification would have to be extended from Skipton to Blea Moor, benefitting Lancaster trains as well, and towards Appleby from Carlisle. Leeds-Skipton is not a significant portion of the S&C.
Leeds-Skipton trains could then be extended to Hellifield (for Ribble Valley line), Settle or even Ribblehead itph.
There is no electrification on the approaches to Carlisle off the Leeds/Newcastle line.

 

[HSTEd]

There isn't enough traffic on the S&C to justify electrification. To operate battery bimode trains electrification would have to be extended from Skipton to Blea Moor, benefitting Lancaster trains as well, and towards Appleby from Carlisle.
Leeds-Skipton is not a significant portion of the S&C.

It's 45 minutes out of a ~3 hour journey according to the National Rail website. That would suggest that the train has 90+ minutes to charge on the electrified southern portion of the route.

I'd suggest the cheapest way, by far, to decarbonise operations on the route would be to buy trains with sufficient battery capacity to reliably make Skipton-Carlisle-Skipton on a single charge, then if there is any money available fit a 25kV feed in the bay platforms at Carlisle.

EDIT:
I've found photos of platform 5 and 6 at Carlisle that indicate OLE is already up in the platforms, can anyone confirm? I didn't think to look last time I was there.
If so then the train can top up charge in the turnaround.

 

[Danfilm007]

I think it would be a sensible move to do infill from Crewe-Chester and Chester-Warrington if doing North Wales Coast, plus it might help linespeed on the Crewe spur and build of Tarporley & Beeston station...

 

[The Planner]

I think it would be a sensible move to do infill from Crewe-Chester and Chester-Warrington if doing North Wales Coast, plus it might help linespeed on the Crewe spur and build of Tarporley & Beeston station...

Won't make any difference to the line speed. Very seperate things.

 

[Danfilm007]

Won't make any difference to the line speed. Very seperate things.

Not directly, but supplementary works at the same time would be cost effective?

 

[deltic08]

It's 45 minutes out of a ~3 hour journey according to the National Rail website. That would suggest that the train has 90+ minutes to charge on the electrified southern portion of the route.

I'd suggest the cheapest way, by far, to decarbonise operations on the route would be to buy trains with sufficient battery capacity to reliably make Skipton-Carlisle-Skipton on a single charge, then if there is any money available fit a 25kV feed in the bay platforms at Carlisle.

EDIT:
I've found photos of platform 5 and 6 at Carlisle that indicate OLE is already up in the platforms, can anyone confirm? I didn't think to look last time I was there.
If so then the train can top up charge in the turnaround.

Platforms 5 and 6 have been electrified since 1973/4. Only platform 2 bay isn't wired. Unobtrusive isn't it.+
The fastest Leeds-Skipton diesel train takes 36 minutes with 3 intermediate stops. Bimodes on Leeds-Carlisle services will use overheads to Skipton and knock at least 3 minutes off journey times on acceleration alone compared to long legged 170 units. 30 minutes is still long enough to charge battery on bimodes but by how much for 86 miles to Carlisle including a climb to Ais Gill in both directions.

 

[The Planner]

Not directly, but supplementary works at the same time would be cost effective?

If they are funded and deliver a tangible benefit. As it stands there are no plans for either.

 

[Starmill]

Lostock to Wigan, 6.5 miles (20 stkm), taking 3.5 years from authorisation in 09/2021 to expected completion in 06/2025. Absolutely dismal progress.
NR need a new approach to even be given the opportunity to electrify 400 stkm.

I'm not saying that when considered in the round it's a good value for money scheme as a result, however, it's worth noting that the Wigan - Bolton improvements include some things in the cost not actually related to wiring, such as lifts and platform extensions.

 

[HSTEd]

Platforms 5 and 6 have been electrified since 1973/4. Only platform 2 bay isn't wired. Unobtrusive isn't it.+
The fastest Leeds-Skipton diesel train takes 36 minutes with 3 intermediate stops. Bimodes on Leeds-Carlisle services will use overheads to Skipton and knock at least 3 minutes off journey times on acceleration alone compared to long legged 170 units. 30 minutes is still long enough to charge battery on bimodes but by how much for 86 miles to Carlisle including a climb to Ais Gill in both directions.

Well the train can also charge southbound and during the turnaround to be ready for the next run to Carlisle.

The unit would have more batteries than any battery unit tried in Britain to date, but I'm fairly certain it can be done.

 

[ZL exile]

Another possible way with this is to wire to Settle from Skipton and Armathwaite from Carlisle, no tunnels on either section should allow more time to fully charge either end snd make the journey achievable. Of course this comes at a cost which with the current service density is probably / definately unaffordable.