Network Rail Comms Director ‘work harder at school’ comment

[yorksrob]

Well there is a significant caveat. When comparing how much people are paid over time, you should really use an average earnings index rather than RPI. AIUI Average earnings tends to run ahead of inflation, or at least did till about a decade ago.

Another point is that today’s chiefs are running rather more railway than their predecessors - and by that I mean more passengers, more trains and certainly a lot more investment.

Finally, whilst Andrew Haines ‘only’ runs one part of the industry, he is also running the transition to GBR, and is seen (certainly by DfT) as the defacto person in charge of the whole system.

So with the last point, similar to Bob Reid 2 who had to prepare the transition to privatisation.

It would be better if there had been a larger increase in actual railway as well !

Perhaps rail chiefs pay should be proportional with the amount of route mileage they manage. That would be a good incentive !

 

[43096]

Perhaps rail chiefs pay should be proportional with the amount of route mileage they manage. That would be a good incentive !

No, it wouldn’t. Just because you are stuck in the 1950s doesn’t mean the transport system should be too.

 

[507020]

So with the last point, similar to Bob Reid 2 who had to prepare the transition to privatisation.

It would be better if there had been a larger increase in actual railway as well !

Perhaps rail chiefs pay should be proportional with the amount of route mileage they manage. That would be a good incentive !

But after Beeching closed most of all route mileage, he found his pay reduced by 100% because he was sacked!

 

[Economist]

I'm possibly being a bit cynical here but would it be within the realms of possibility that the comment was made to try and increase the likelihood of industrial action? At the end of the day, a large rail strike would remove parties in Downing Street and May election losses from the tabloid headlines fairly quickly.

I do wonder if the government has used the pandemic to create a new and updated version of the Ridley Plan, it should be pointed out that one of the main points of the original Ridley Plan is that the government should, where possible, decide the location and timing of any battle with trade unions.

 

[yorksrob]

But after Beeching closed most of all route mileage, he found his pay reduced by 100% because he was sacked!

I suppose you could look at it that way !

 

[778]

I would hope that a national rail strike does not coincide with the Glastonbury Festival (June 22nd - 26th)? That would bring negative publicity to the railway if that happened, and the railway could lose a lot of revenue.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would hope that a national rail strike does not coincide with the Glastonbury Festival (June 22nd - 26th)? That would bring negative publicity to the railway if that happened, and the railway could lose a lot of revenue.

Why do some people view festivals and sport as sacrosanct?

The RMT had no compunction in making the day of the Grand National a strike day not so long ago.

 

[yorksrob]

No, it wouldn’t. Just because you are stuck in the 1950s doesn’t mean the transport system should be too.

As a passenger, it's in my interest to maintain a passenger networks with as much access to the nation as possible. Such an incentive would be beneficial to railway passengers, particular where there are perceive incentives to reduce the network.

Why do some people view festivals and sport as sacrosanct?

The RMT had no compunction in making the day of the Grand National a strike day not so long ago.

And that's an issue. As a worker, I have some sympathy with the RMT striking on work days because even though my journey to work becomes more difficult, it is still travelling to work which I can accept difficulties in sympathy.

This business of striking on weekends seems like a Vendetta against passengers though, and they lose any sympathy I might have had.

 

[mmh]

Why do some people view festivals and sport as sacrosanct?

The RMT had no compunction in making the day of the Grand National a strike day not so long ago.

Because they're important socially and economically.

 

[Master29]

P45 time for her methinks. Let's hope she worked hard enough at school to have the qualifications to get a decent new job.

I think that will be a given. It usually is.

 

[Watershed]

a large rail strike would remove parties in Downing Street and May election losses from the tabloid headlines fairly quickly.

I wouldn't be so sure.

 

[mmh]

I would hope that a national rail strike does not coincide with the Glastonbury Festival (June 22nd - 26th)? That would bring negative publicity to the railway if that happened, and the railway could lose a lot of revenue.

The vast majority of people at Glastonbury go by car.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The vast majority of people at Glastonbury go by car.

Indeed so. Glastonbury and Street railway station on the Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway closed 56 years ago in 1966.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Perhaps rail chiefs pay should be proportional with the amount of route mileage they manage. That would be a good incentive !

So, just testing the logic here, the Network Rail manager in charge of (say) Waterloo Station would get zero pay because they didn't actually manage any route mileage. Is that what you believe?

Obviously a Network Rail regional director of communications would be entitled to zero pay for the same reason.

 

[yorksrob]

So, just testing the logic here, the Network Rail manager in charge of (say) Waterloo Station would get zero pay because they didn't actually manage any route mileage. Is that what you believe?

Obviously a Network Rail regional director of communications would be entitled to zero pay for the same reason.

A station master is a different job from someone managing the network. Obviously it would require different incentives.

 

[43066]

A station master is a different job from someone managing the network. Obviously it would require different incentives.

I don’t think they’ve been called that for quite a while!

 

[yorksrob]

I don’t think they’ve been called that for quite a while!

Well, I had head masters and head mistresses at school, so it works for me !

To be fair, my comment about linking the pay off those charged with strategic decision making about the railway, to network size was somewhat flippant and can probably be pulled apart, but not by comparison with a different occupation !

 

[Starmill]

Well, I had head masters and head mistresses at school, so it works for me !

To be fair, my comment about linking the pay off those charged with strategic decision making about the railway, to network size was somewhat flippant and can probably be pulled apart, but not by comparison with a different occupation !

Indeed. For example it would encourage routes to be "reopened" by providing one passenger service per week, which is of absolutely no use. For example Sandbach to Northwich could be opened tomorrow in such a way simply by running a train, but it would be a total waste of resources.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed. For example it would encourage routes to be "reopened" by providing one passenger service per week, which is of absolutely no use. For example Sandbach to Northwich could be opened tomorrow in such a way simply by running a train, but it would be a total waste of resources.

Well, you could always adjust the key performance indicator to omit parliamentary services if the will was there !

 

[507020]

I suppose you could look at it that way !

Beeching of course closed ~51% of and therefore *most* route mileage, but the proportion of track mileage lost must have been far greater given the amount of lines singled, 4 track main lines reduced to 2 and the number of sidings lost.

So, just testing the logic here, the Network Rail manager in charge of (say) Waterloo Station would get zero pay because they didn't actually manage any route mileage. Is that what you believe?

Obviously a Network Rail regional director of communications would be entitled to zero pay for the same reason.

By the same reasoning, if they were paid by track mileage rather than route mileage, they would be paid something since there is of course track through all of the stations that Beeching didn’t get his hands on. That woman is likely to be entitled to the same pay as Beeching soon.

A station master is a different job from someone managing the network. Obviously it would require different incentives.

An incentive based on passenger numbers may be better for station masters. Under this system, the station master of the Waterloo terminus would receive the highest pay of all station masters in the country!

Indeed. For example it would encourage routes to be "reopened" by providing one passenger service per week, which is of absolutely no use. For example Sandbach to Northwich could be opened tomorrow in such a way simply by running a train, but it would be a total waste of resources.

I have been meaning to go on that line, so they’ll have to electrify Chester - Crewe and divert all services that way for a while, but I wouldn’t count that as such a reopening when the route and its mileage still exist, so someone must manage it. Coleford Junction - Okehampton - Tavistock - Bere Alston, Parson Street - Ashton Gate - Pill - Portishead, Newcastle - Blyth/Ashington, Southport - Ormskirk/Preston, Colne - Skipton, Harrogate - Ripon - Northallerton, Tebay - Barnard Castle - Darlington etc are examples of the kinds of reopening that involve infrastructure work and adding new route mileage.

Well, you could always adjust the key performance indicator to omit parliamentary services if the will was there !

As in route mileage that has a timetabled passenger service that runs at least hourly.

 

[yorksrob]

Beeching of course closed ~51% of and therefore *most* route mileage, but the proportion of track mileage lost must have been far greater given the amount of lines singled, 4 track main lines reduced to 2 and the number of sidings lost.

By the same reasoning, if they were paid by track mileage rather than route mileage, they would be paid something since there is of course track through all of the stations that Beeching didn’t get his hands on. That woman is likely to be entitled to the same pay as Beeching soon.

Good points, but I would still go with route mileage as you can still run a decent passenger service with a single track basic railway.

An incentive based on passenger numbers may be better for station masters. Under this system, the station master of the Waterloo terminus would receive the highest pay of all station masters in the country!

Indeed. That would be sensible.

As in route mileage that has a timetabled passenger service that runs at least hourly.

Indeed.

 

[Starmill]

I have been meaning to go on that line, so they’ll have to electrify Chester - Crewe and divert all services that way for a while, but I wouldn’t count that as such a reopening when the route and its mileage still exist, so someone must manage it.

I was having a gentle joke with yorksrob who has a keen interest in the returning to use of freight lines for passenger services, or restoration of footpaths as passenger railways, not making a serious point In other words I'm sure Yorksrob does not count lines which are open to freight and charter services as open if there's no passenger service, not even a parliamentary one. Fawley is the other obvious example, and until the recent start of main works you could have said the same of what will soon be the Northumberland line.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm sure Yorksrob does not count lines which are open to freight and charter services as open if there's no passenger service, not even a parliamentary one. .

Not for the purposes of my ramblings here, no

 

[Dr Hoo]

Beeching of course closed ~51% of and therefore *most* route mileage, but the proportion of track mileage lost must have been far greater given the amount of lines singled, 4 track main lines reduced to 2 and the number of sidings lost.

I know that this is veering wildly off-thread but your supposed statistics are wildly inaccurate. By way of example, passenger route open to traffic was already down to 13,697 miles at the end of 1961 but was still over 11,000 miles at the end of 1965 by which time Beeching's temporary secondment from ICI had concluded.

Interestingly the Transport Minister, Marples, only presided over withdrawal of passenger services from 1,436 miles as recommended in the Reshaping Report. Subsequent Ministers - Fraser, Castle, Marsh and Mulley - saw closure of another 2,071 miles.

On the 'track rationalisation' front, this was very much a post-Beeching phenomenon, given real life in the Surplus Track Capacity [elimination] Grants under the Transport Act 1968. Kilometres of track had only fallen from around 71,822 to 66,554 during the 1961-1965 era but then plummeted to 50,342 by the end of 1970.

So none of these changes came to anything like 51% of the network and it is very obvious that most of the cuts happened after Marples and Beeching had gone.

[Sources: BR Annual Reports, Transport Statistics Great Britain and Gourvish's Business History of BR.]

In terms of the sheer volume of 'traffic' for which managers are or were responsible, it is worth recalling that as the last Chairman of the British Transport Commission Beeching was responsible for far more bus passenger journeys than rail and underground trips thanks to London buses and trolleybuses, Tilling and Scottish Transport group activities during 1962! I think that he deserved to maintain the level of remuneration that he had received at ICI.

 

[RailWonderer]

I think the problem is deeper then that.
'People who aren't on hundreds of thouands per year didn't work hard enough', is said by those who believe the myth and the dangerous myth that is meritocracy. It makes people feel inferior for conseqences they didn't have full control over. Miners work hard and never get paid those wages, it is simply a numbers game, if your boss happens to like you, if the company has a demand for the work you do, if the company you are in decides to promote you again and again, and doesn't hire somebody from elsewhere, if they decide to train you, if the company doesn't go bust or restructure etc.

There are so many irrational, unpredictable random factors in those rising to the top that you cannot believe in meritocracy. It is a nieve and misguided ideal that continues to delude people. Those at the top cannot be objective to the situation. Sorry if I went off topic but it's such a delusion to say things like that.

 

[Djgr]

I think the problem is deeper then that.
'People who aren't on hundreds of thouands per year didn't work hard enough', is said by those who believe the myth and the dangerous myth that is meritocracy. It makes people feel inferior for conseqences they didn't have full control over. Miners work hard and never get paid those wages, it is simply a numbers game, if your boss happens to like you, if the company has a demand for the work you do, if the company you are in decides to promote you again and again, and doesn't hire somebody from elsewhere, if they decide to train you, if the company doesn't go bust or restructure etc.

There are so many irrational, unpredictable random factors in those rising to the top that you cannot believe in meritocracy. It is a nieve and misguided ideal that continues to delude people. Those at the top cannot be objective to the situation. Sorry if I went off topic but it's such a delusion to say things like that.

Or to put it another way:

It's a bit of nature.
It's a bit of nurture.
But a lot of luck.

 

[43066]

Miners work hard and never get paid those wages

I’m not sure that’s correct. Mining can be a very lucrative occupation indeed:

Fortune hunters: the top ten best paid mining jobs

Mining salaries can be very lucrative but vary widely depending on the location, size of the company, years of experience and the educational qualifications of an employee. Mining-technology.com picks the top ten mining jobs associated with core mining operations, based on the latest annual...

www.mining-technology.com

Jumbo operators in Australia earn up to $165,000 per annum, however the maximum salary paid to mill operators in rest of the world doesn’t exceed $111,000 per year. The annual salaries of technicians, electricians and fitters range between $50,000 and $150,000.
Underground miners earn more than $150,000 per year, much higher than that earned by surface miners whose annual salary ranges between $50,000 and $85,000.

 

[RailWonderer]

I’m not sure that’s correct. Mining can be a very lucrative occupation indeed:

Fortune hunters: the top ten best paid mining jobs

Mining salaries can be very lucrative but vary widely depending on the location, size of the company, years of experience and the educational qualifications of an employee. Mining-technology.com picks the top ten mining jobs associated with core mining operations, based on the latest annual...

www.mining-technology.com

Maybe I should have said construction workers then but yes, experienced miners can be very highly paid.

 

[43096]

Or to put it another way:

It's a bit of nature.
It's a bit of nurture.
But a lot of luck.

I'm reminded of the late, great Richie Benaud's view on cricket captaincy, "Captaincy is 90 per cent luck and 10 per cent skill. But don't try it without that 10 per cent."

 

[Drogba11CFC]

This business of striking on weekends seems like a Vendetta against passengers though, and they lose any sympathy I might have had.

They seem to be going out of their way to make passengers miserable - anything else is a bonus.