New First Capital Connect Announcements

[alexdodds]

That's the same as Manchester Picadilly isn't it?

Nope at Manchester Piccadilly P13 and P14 use a seperate announcement zone so only trains for them platforms are announced there and all the others play on the concourse and P1 to P12 at the same time.

 

[dan_atki]

A similar announcement is made now. It's something like 'a trolley service with hot drinks and snacks available'. It's a bit daft for a train twenty minutes from London.

Almost as daft as at Clapham Junction announcing trolleys on fast trains to Victoria on platform 12. Saying that, I nearly died the time the trolley DID come through in those 6 minutes...

Midland Mainline used to have a service that terminated at Luton Airport Parkway. That was also announced as having a trolley at Luton, 2 minutes up the line. I suspect with the free tea and coffee on offer, people did actually go and seek the trolley on board!

 

[PR1Berske]

Nope at Manchester Piccadilly P13 and P14 use a seperate announcement zone so only trains for them platforms are announced there and all the others play on the concourse and P1 to P12 at the same time.

Thanks!

 

[Aictos]

Well Hertford North now is home to the new ATOS system and what a difference!

We now have announcements voiced by both the male and female artist advising various messages which seem to play one after the other non stop!

The VDU screens now display the services with a smaller text meaning the whole stopping pattern can now be displayed on one page.

The VDU screens also display a full digital clock on the bottom of the screen, when there are no more services booked to use the platform it defaults now to a larger digital clock on the screen.

Only thing is, I just wish Phil did the announcements!

 

[thefab444]

That's interesting about the male voice, are they just messages from the FCC control centre, or properly recorded?

It's not this chap is it? (The male voice of Atos at London Bridge/Cannon Street/Gatwick Airport)

 

[Aictos]

That's interesting about the male voice, are they just messages from the FCC control centre, or properly recorded?

It's not this chap is it? (The male voice of Atos at London Bridge/Cannon Street/Gatwick Airport)

I think and I'm not 100% sure but the male voice was taken from someone working in one of the TL SDCs, it certainly doesn't sound like the sample you've provided.

 

[thefab444]

Sounds interesting, does the male voice announce trains as well, or just provide the generic announcements?

 

[jon0844]

That's interesting about the male voice, are they just messages from the FCC control centre, or properly recorded?

It's not this chap is it? (The male voice of Atos at London Bridge/Cannon Street/Gatwick Airport)

Haha.. that sounds like someone pretending to be speaking with pre-recorded snippets of speech!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The VDU screens now display the services with a smaller text meaning the whole stopping pattern can now be displayed on one page.

Hopefully not too small... or the Daily Mail will start a campaign for the visually impaired being discriminated against!!

 

[thefab444]

Haha.. that sounds like someone pretending to be speaking with pre-recorded snippets of speech!

Yes he is very robotic! The "First Capital Connect" recording is rather amusing though...

 

[jon0844]

OMG!!

Hatfield now has the new system (as I noticed when all the displays are now showing London Kings X instead of Kings Cross).

The voices are awful, and a mix of male and female voices. Whoever recorded them has clearly had no voice coaching, and it is now very hard to make out what is being said when standing in the exact same place that let you easily hear Phil. I really hope the voices are temporary.

Not only that, but the system was telling everyone in the station building to stand away from the edge of platform 2 (which is over the bridge!) whenever a non-stopping train flew though, so they've clearly not go it working on a platform by platform basis yet.

I'll accept the inevitable teething problems, but you'd have thought that a new system would be a significant improvement on the old one, not a step backwards. I suppose the fact is, the old GN system was pretty good - and maybe it's only people on TL (or those stations that still have the old television monitors) that will see it as being better.

 

[Aictos]

OMG!!

Hatfield now has the new system (as I noticed when all the displays are now showing London Kings X instead of Kings Cross).

The voices are awful, and a mix of male and female voices. Whoever recorded them has clearly had no voice coaching, and it is now very hard to make out what is being said when standing in the exact same place that let you easily hear Phil. I really hope the voices are temporary.

Not only that, but the system was telling everyone in the station building to stand away from the edge of platform 2 (which is over the bridge!) whenever a non-stopping train flew though, so they've clearly not go it working on a platform by platform basis yet.

I'll accept the inevitable teething problems, but you'd have thought that a new system would be a significant improvement on the old one, not a step backwards. I suppose the fact is, the old GN system was pretty good - and maybe it's only people on TL (or those stations that still have the old television monitors) that will see it as being better.

I don't understand the Platform 2 issue though, as northbound non stoppers use Platform 2, there is no platform for southbound non stoppers.

The new system will have teething troubles, just ask Bombardier but in times of disruption, it should be a lot better then the old system.

Indeed, one advantage of this system is the ability to input messages once into the system rather then type the same message out three times to put it into the system, it's also one system so far easier to maintain plus as it's the same system as the one that other neighbouring TOCs use so any information just needs to be entered the once for all screens on that route to be automatically updated.

I welcome this investment, just wish they brought Phil onboard!

 

[Greenback]

Yes, Phil Sayer has a rich, clear voice and is easily understood as a result!

 

[thefab444]

Oh dear, sounds like a typical Atos system then! Anyone know if Finsbury Park has been done yet?

On the subject of Phil, here's an interesting clip I recorded at Brockenhurst the other day. Copyright - as always - remains with Ketech Ditra/Phil Sayer. Note how Phil gets the corrected information about 15 seconds before the screens update!

 

[jon0844]

No, FPK is still Phil. You can easily tell when they've switched without waiting for any audio by seeing if it says Kings X instead of Kings Cross.

A member of staff told me that yesterday (I was off sick) it was saying that loads of trains to London were not stopping, which suggests it was reporting all the fast trains on the up fast (which has no platform as you say) and not platform 1! They had loads of worried passengers asking why the next train wasn't going to call at Hatfield.

Joe Public won't know the system is more advanced behind the scenes, but will judge on the awful announcements. Surely they can replace the default voices with something else?

Update (1930); Just returned to Hatfield cannot believe how awful the new system is. You can barely hear any announcements from anywhere outdoors (this morning I was in the main building). Not only that, but the 'stand clear' warning that used to flash on the screens is now just a small bit of text underneath the next train information. STATIC text and so easily missed, it may as well not say anything at all.

Now, I accept that this system may offer loads of extra features to the operator, but to the end-user it's absolute c**p at the moment.

 

[dan_atki]

Now, I accept that this system may offer loads of extra features to the operator, but to the end-user it's absolute c**p at the moment.

It will continue to be crap - just like Funkwerk was on the TL side when it was introduced a little over two years ago (the only plus was it had Phil's voice, although the infrastructure made him sound patronising due to old speakers being used - it was always much better at St Pancras).

Interestingly, whilst on the issue of St Pancras, whilst the new ATOS system announces trains using Sarah (or Anne, or whatever you wish to call her), Phil is still doing some of the special announcements left over from Funkwerk. Also interestingly, the wording of some of ATOS' specials has been changed to mirror what Funk used to say - e.g. Sarah will announce about engineering work at the weekend with the same wording as Phil used to. The only difference is Sarah's is segmented to allow for different operators and websites to be used, whereas Phil's was all one recording.

All I can say is that First must be on a cost cutting exercise. They'd clearly sooner pay a smaller fee for a substandard system rather than pay Ketech Ditra to have updates each month. If anyone from the command chain at FCC is reading this then all I will say to you is there is a reason Ditra is more expensive. Just ask Southern and South West Trains. It is a shame that Ditra have lost a medium sized client (in terms of number of stations).

At the end of the day, who is the CIS there to benefit? The clue is in the term 'CIS'... It may do everything the staff want it to do, but if it sounds rubbish, the customers don't like it, and they're not getting any information from it (all three of which have been stated above) then it is NOT a good product. I'd have thought FCC would have known this from the debacle of the poor screens installed on the TL side 2 years ago, causing them ALL having to be changed to LED equivalents.

Alternatively, First could have too much money. In which case we can expect them to equip all of their stations with Ditra again in a year or two! I'm surprised Funkwerk lasted as shortly as it did, but even more surprised that wasn't used to its best extent with operators missing from announcements for the best part of 18 months.

 

[thefab444]

I imagine it is to do with costs - if FCC had cared they could easily have specified Ketech/Ditra Informer software for the announcements instead of the bundled Atos announcer, in the same way SWT do.

Sadly we've got all this to look forward to on FGW soon as well, as they replace Ditra (and ancient SEMA/Racal systems) with the new Atos thing.

 

[jon0844]

Given my recent issues with FCC, and their pathetic responses on their online forums to questions from myself and others, I do wonder if anyone is actually in charge there at the moment.

I've still not heard anything back regarding what happened with regards to the problems I had/have with a certain RPI, and I never got any explanation about the ticket issue I had more recently. To me, that suggests they're not interested in customers at all. Unlike a certain wheelchair user, I can't be bothered to keep chasing either of these issues - and their lack of response is telling enough for me.

No doubt on the next forum there will plenty of people moaning about the new CIS, and I can't wait to see their standard response - along the lines of 'Our feedback suggests people wanted this system, which is more powerful than the old one and therefore better. Thank you for your question'. Let's see...! (and I think it was myself who brought up the issue of the c**p green backlit displays that TL nearly got stuck with, and I recall Elaine Holt saying they didn't comply with DDA regulations or similar, so they got changed - only for some to re-appear at King's Cross! It seems Network Rail are desperate to put them somewhere!!).

It should be noted that Elaine Holt did also respond to me almost straight away when I asked her recently about the previous permission given to combine two tickets without the train stopping at the boundary, but she couldn't recall this and gave me details of someone else, who has also left FCC but remains within First Group. However, in the end, given that FCC could still say they've changed their mind, it seemed a pointless exercise, so I opted to simply change my ticket early to prevent more hassle (but costing me money).

I wonder if this new system would have been purchased if she was still in charge?

 

[12CSVT]

Some examples of grammatical errors in automated announcements.

Heard on FCC
"We are sorry that the xx xx to xxxxxxx has been cancelled. This is due to no member of traincrew available earlier"

Heard on London Underground
"The next train is for Circle Line via Liverpool Street"

 

[thefab444]

I wonder if this new system would have been purchased if she was still in charge?

Possibly, she reportedly had a personal vendetta against Ditra Systems for some reason or other, hence why Thameslink ordered Funkwerk PA a few years back. Costly mistake that turned out to be!

 

[Aictos]

Possibly, she reportedly had a personal vendetta against Ditra Systems for some reason or other, hence why Thameslink ordered Funkwerk PA a few years back. Costly mistake that turned out to be!

You wouldn't be far wrong but it was just rumours....

I like the new system as it means it's one system for both routes bringing them closer together plus as it's just one system means maintenance overheads will be reduced plus the operation will be so much more easier.

Even if I must be the only person here who likes the ATOS system - pity I'm not being paid by them!

If Funkwerk wasn't as **** as it's alleged to be then maybe Ditra might have been replaced with Funkwerk on both routes!

Anyway, someone in First has opened the purse strings with all the investment that's happening between now and March 2012!

 

[jon0844]

I have no doubt this new system has a series of benefits, whether ease of use, or cost benefits.

However, until they fix some fundamental issues - from the voices, to the way information is presented (and the warning messages are displayed), it is - in my view - not fit for purpose.

And I'm not just exaggerating in a Daily Mail sort of way. It really isn't up to the job. I have pretty good hearing (much to the annoyance of people around me!) and I have been struggling to make out the announcements. Even by the speaker, they're still not clear and have no sense of authority, sounding like background noise that isn't actually there for you to listen to.

Of course, this must be easy to change. The display settings must be configurable options in software, so that's a few minutes work - and the voices can be re-recorded with one day (maybe even half a day) in a studio. Job done.

I'm certainly not saying we should change back, but let's get it right.

 

[dan_atki]

and the voices can be re-recorded with one day (maybe even half a day) in a studio. Job done.

On a generic system such as ATOS then it would require a lot longer for a script re-record by a more 'professional' voiceover such as Phil.

Ditra has an 'up' and 'down' variant for each station in its bank, ATOS also has a 'start' variant for the station immediately after 'calling at'. The reason for this is unclear as an 'up' version should be sufficient like it is on Ditra.

Then there are the delay reasons you never even knew existed...

 

[jon0844]

If I was buying software today, it would have a text-to-speech function. It's good enough now for broadcasting, and means you have an unlimited set of reasons. The one at King's Cross (tube) isn't quite there, but I am sure that can be upgraded and tweaked to be more effective. It's essentially there, and it's good to see that someone has invested in it - even if they perhaps did so a little bit too early!

You can still have pre-recorded announcements if you so wish, and increase accuracy with phonetic information for certain words (a kind of look-up table that ensures odd words, or place names, are pronounced correctly).

I presume this system doesn't offer that? If not, would it be an upgrade or require yet another purchase?

 

[thefab444]

As mentioned before, I'm skeptical about TTS. The only really decent TTS software out there that I know of is Acapela Box, which has been used for train announcements already, and has features for corporate customers to change pronounciations etc.

On a generic system such as ATOS then it would require a lot longer for a script re-record by a more 'professional' voiceover such as Phil.

Ditra has an 'up' and 'down' variant for each station in its bank, ATOS also has a 'start' variant for the station immediately after 'calling at'. The reason for this is unclear as an 'up' version should be sufficient like it is on Ditra.

Then there are the delay reasons you never even knew existed...

True, although Atos' delay reasons are strictly limited, James posted a list earlier on in this thread and it came to about 25!

As for the "start" variant of station recordings, it's used for a couple of other things (delays I believe), but seems completely unnecessary to me.

 

[Aictos]

With all due respect to automatic announcements, you cannot beat manual announcements so that being said, I'm interested to see if anyone here shares my view that certain announcements although don't have to be announced, are announced on the grounds that it helps to prevent any possible legal claim.

I am of course referring to the wet weather announcements advising passengers to be careful when on and about the platforms as they may be slippery which are made by both the team at Kings Cross responsible for the CIS and train crews from East Coast for example.

What announcements should be played regardless and which should be just optional?

Finally, can anyone tell me what the setup is at Edinburgh, Inverness, Aberdeen or the other bigger Scottish stations ie Perth, Stirling, Haymarket etc...please, are they fully automated or do they employ someone to make the announcements?

 

[alexdodds]

With all due respect to automatic announcements, you cannot beat manual announcements so that being said, I'm interested to see if anyone here shares my view that certain announcements although don't have to be announced, are announced on the grounds that it helps to prevent any possible legal claim.

I am of course referring to the wet weather announcements advising passengers to be careful when on and about the platforms as they may be slippery which are made by both the team at Kings Cross responsible for the CIS and train crews from East Coast for example.

What announcements should be played regardless and which should be just optional?

Finally, can anyone tell me what the setup is at Edinburgh, Inverness, Aberdeen or the other bigger Scottish stations ie Perth, Stirling, Haymarket etc...please, are they fully automated or do they employ someone to make the announcements?

Edinburgh Waverley is unique although it uses the ATOS setup. all the announcements are pre-recorded by the station manager.

Aberdeen''s announcements are done manualy with the famous 3 tone chimes at the start.

Perth is also manual with a different 3 tone chime sequence and so is Haymarket except haymarket doesnt have chimes.

Stirling used to be manual but now uses the automated system voiced by a Scottish woman heard at most other stations in Soctland.

No idea about Inverness probably a manual system.

 

[jon0844]

Missed my train today, so had to hang around a bit at Hatfield and the new system was still announcing trains arriving on platform 3 (from where I was on platform 1), and telling everyone that the train approaching platform 2 was not stopping.

The no smoking announcement is very short, while the suspect package and being told to use the help point immediately is quite long.

All of them are hard to hear, and I was standing UNDER the speaker and struggled if people were talking nearby. Have they turned the volume down, or are the recordings themselves at too low a volume?

Anyway - there was somewhat more of an issue. There was no announcement for trains on platform 1! So my train came in without any pre-announcement, any 'approaching' announcement or the one when the train has arrived.

I noticed at New Barnet that the same thing happened there too, with the system saying a fast train on platform 2 wasn't stopping... but nothing about the train on the platform.

I was told that it was announcing trains as not stopping on the first day, so have they been forced to turn off the bit that announces arriving trains on some platforms? If so, I do hope they're working hard to fix it. People probably prefer information on trains than safety announcements.

 

[Aictos]

It's the same at Hertford, trains used to have a pre announcement then a announcement as it got into the station and maybe a extra announcement if it stood there for a while but now all you get is the pre announcement on the though services and the announcement while the train is in the platform for trains starting from there.

The volume is too quiet sometimes as well but I believe they are set at a volume agreed with local councils so any adjustment needs their approvement.

 

[jon0844]

Does FCC management know about people who might be visually impaired and rely on announcements to know what train to get on?

Aside from the fact the volume is so low now, if they won't actually tell you what train is approaching or say anything when it has arrived, they may as well switch it off completely!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This morning it is STILL not announcing any trains on platform 1 at Hatfield, but telling everyone about what's going on at platform 2 and 3.

I'm shocked that they don't seem to be rushing to fix this rather major error, given the same is happening all along the line where the new software is now in use. Potters Bar and Finsbury Park are working with the old system, so the data must be there.

 

[philjo]

I noticed that all of the screens were blank, showing only the current time at Potters Bar this morning so they may be in the process of changing the system. The announcements were still running today (though platform1 in the morning peak is frequently turned off with manual announcements being made)

At Stevenage yesterday afternoon there were time lags as it was warning about approaching fast trains on platform 3 about 30 seconds after the train had gone past.