New Go-op train service between Swindon, Taunton and Weston-super-Mare approved by ORR

[slipdigby]

Goodness me, I am surprised at the overall negative tone of this thread to this news.
A lot of work has gone into this, and it is an innovative proposal aimed at improving connectivity and train services in an area relatively poorly served. Go op is a cooperative, not a commercial organisation driven by shareholder profits.
Given the state of many of the current operators and services, I would have thought that forum members would be celebrating the success a new operator trying to improve the railway and gaining track access from ORR, rather than criticising. Perhaps some offers of support in making it happen would be more constructive?

I don't think you understand the financial fundamentals of the passenger railway in 2024. Barely anything out there covers its direct, chargeable costs, including the flagship Intercity or LSE commuter outfits. Open Access survives through a combination of parent company subsidy, and a charging regime that favours OA entrants (for now). This proposal is for a backwater part of the network, that even if it manages to avoid much of the full network costs that Great Western have to cough up, will still struggle to cover more than half its costs. Sorry, but this is a joke and should have been put to bed a long while back.

 

[SirDanielGooch]

As a Langport resident, I’m very happy about this! They’ve been big advocates for building a station for Langport/Somerton and using rail to improve local connectivity in the region. I hope this works for them, there is some untapped demand for a reliable local service between Swindon-Westbury especially, and potentially a little for Taunton-Frome but that will mostly be day trippers. Where this will be useful is for those of us stuck between Taunton and Westbury with precious few stopping services, a link to get to Taunton/Westbury and then hop on a fast train would be fantastic. Last time I tried catching the train to London from Castle Cary it was 1 train every 2 hours and both mine and the next got cancelled, if this had been running I’d have perhaps been able to get to Westbury or Swindon and continue my journey from there.

The Taunton-Weston leg is slightly concerning to me, I don’t see much demand there, it’s the capacity for Exeter-Taunton-Bristol that is much needed. Weston doesn’t have much draw, and is far more of a source for commuting to Bristol. Taunton itself doesn’t have a huge draw for jobs, and the draw it does have untapped potential is from the Yeovil area, and the rail link there got ripped up in the 60s and built over since so no amount of cooperative cooperation will allow them to tap that market. I hope hope hope this project works and this underserved rural area gets the public transport it needs, especially for disabled passengers like myself. But I have to admit I struggle to see where the cash flow comes from.

Looks like the plan is to refurbish 153s, but they will have been in storage for some time so there may be some issues there.

 

[SirDanielGooch]

I don't think you understand the financial fundamentals of the passenger railway in 2024. Barely anything out there covers its direct, chargeable costs, including the flagship Intercity or LSE commuter outfits. Open Access survives through a combination of parent company subsidy, and a charging regime that favours OA entrants (for now). This proposal is for a backwater part of the network, that even if it manages to avoid much of the full network costs that Great Western have to cough up, will still struggle to cover more than half its costs. Sorry, but this is a joke and should have been put to bed a long while back.

Calling attempts to improve public transport connections in parts of the country like this “a joke” is rather harsh. There’s a huge amount of public good that can come from this, to an area that needs it. The bus services are poor, and yet a mainline with capacity runs right through my town and many others with no local service to speak of. Attempts to improve that situation aren’t a joke, no matter how challenging financing such services end up being.

 

[Killingworth]

Apologies if this has been asked before [and if it is going off topic] but in theory what is the maximum amount of 153's that can be run together ?

I've seen EMR run 4 together on Liverpool - Nottingham when stretched for stock but more can probably be run in multiple out of passenger service.

 

[VItraveller]

i’m a big fan of open access operators but surely this can’t work?
how would it even be profitable, it doesn’t serve any major cities and is this really going to be the first successful open access operator that doesn’t call at London?
Am I missing something.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Apologies if this has been asked before [and if it is going off topic] but in theory what is the maximum amount of 153's that can be run together ?

As far as I know (I think it's been discussed a bit before), a 15x/170 consist can have 12 cabs (8 if a 14x is involved), so theoretically 6 153s
I can't imagine them actually diagraming a sextuple 153, given that would be half their (potential) stock in one service.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I thought the limit with 15x was 10 cabs. I recall Central Trains attempting to operate a 5x 153 formation on a Skegness service back in the day and it… didn’t work. Suspect having so many outer couplers involved (dirty) the front cab wasn’t talking properly to the rear unit.

 

[brad465]

I suspect that it goes without saying that a large majority of the responders on this thread would want to support the service by buying a ticket and travelling on it! However it's inevitable that most people won't be frequently visiting the places en route of this service as none are particularly big attractions. I'm sure most people would still go for at least one trip when they're in this part of the country of course. In practical terms I'm not sure I can see what else forum members even could do to be supportive.

If this service happens, it will be interesting seeing how it fares during Glastonbury festival, which of course sees huge traffic volumes go to/from Castle Cary. While most passengers come from outside the range of this service's proposed operating range, as a 1-2 car service it could easily be overwhelmed and wouldn't be surprised if they had to make it omit the aforementioned station to ensure no festival-related passengers board it.

 

[SirDanielGooch]

If this service happens, it will be interesting seeing how it fares during Glastonbury festival, which of course sees huge traffic volumes go to/from Castle Cary. While most passengers come from outside the range of this service's proposed operating range, as a 1-2 car service it could easily be overwhelmed and wouldn't be surprised if they had to make it omit the aforementioned station to ensure no festival-related passengers board it.

Or alternatively it would be nice to see our rail network try and actually meet the demand for events like this for a change by hiring in stock and making some money from the increased traffic. Rather than the usual wringing of hands and giving up before starting that the modern UK rail network is plagued by

 

[The_Train]

Goodness me, I am surprised at the overall negative tone of this thread to this news.
A lot of work has gone into this, and it is an innovative proposal aimed at improving connectivity and train services in an area relatively poorly served. Go op is a cooperative, not a commercial organisation driven by shareholder profits.
Given the state of many of the current operators and services, I would have thought that forum members would be celebrating the success a new operator trying to improve the railway and gaining track access from ORR, rather than criticising. Perhaps some offers of support in making it happen would be more constructive?

You don't come onto railway forums (and I mean this in general, not just this one) very often do you?

To assist you with all other threads - the entire world is imploding and nothing will ever work ever again

 

[irish_rail]

Trouble is , the minute there are issues on the B and H, GWR require the single line through Melksham for London to Plymouth trains and the current Swindon to Westbury service has to be canned to allow the intercitys to divert. With this proposal being a separate operator, surely there is a chance they will just refuse to cancel all there services when there are issues on the B and H, and the net result will be huge delays to busy London trains. Im sorry, but I'm really struggling to see much benefit in this one.

 

[sh24]

Or alternatively it would be nice to see our rail network try and actually meet the demand for events like this for a change by hiring in stock and making some money from the increased traffic. Rather than the usual wringing of hands and giving up before starting that the modern UK rail network is plagued by

In GWR's defence, they actually do make quite an effort for Glastonbury.

 

[30907]

Swindon-Chippenham-Melksham-Trowbridge-Westbury is 2-hourly sparse service, and prone to interruptions due to long single line section.

...and running more frequent services will be a doddle?

In blunt terms GWR has (since 1906) rather treated it as an intermediate part of other services, and not really done anything to encourage travel between the local stations.

I like to think that the citizens of Frome will suddenly start travelling to Swindon and Taunton, but I do wonder how big the potential market is - even more so to/from Bridgwater and Weston (though IIRCwe have had a forum member needing to travel Yeovil-WSM recently).
Of course if Langport and Somerton reopen that would be a genuine local benefit.

 

[W-on-Sea]

This sounds like a nice idea on paper- linking together various services in a relatively compact region that currently have poor connections. But really....who is going to use it, and how can it possibly make any money? I'd love it to succeed, but really can't see how it can.

 

[Chingy]

Great, that can battle with the Weymouths over who is going to cause the biggest delay to the Padd Penzance fasts.....

Surely that particular award goes to the Mendip stone trains.

 

[John R]

I am as sceptical as the ORR appears to be that this will ever happen. But those who actively and successfully campaigned a decade ago for the restoration of more than a token service on the Melksham branch have long asked for a service increase to hourly, and so I could see the section from Swindon to Westbury being reasonably popular.

 

[irish_rail]

Surely that particular award goes to the Mendip stone trains.

In my experience (as a driver) it is the Weymouth trains that get in the way, way more than the stone trains.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I am as sceptical as the ORR appears to be that this will ever happen. But those who actively and successfully campaigned a decade ago for the restoration of more than a token service on the Melksham branch have long asked for a service increase to hourly, and so I could see the section from Swindon to Westbury being reasonably popular.

I suspect the Thingley Jn to Bradford Jn section will require significant investment - at least partial doubling - before that can be achieved.

 

[brad465]

Great, that can battle with the Weymouths over who is going to cause the biggest delay to the Padd Penzance fasts.....

Surely that particular award goes to the Mendip stone trains.

Another problem I've seen, as has regularly been pointed out (and I've experienced first hand), is Castle Cary-Cogload Jct is largely 2 aspect and includes a stupidly long block between approx. a mile out from Castle Cary and Somerton Ground frame (more or less half the whole section). If a London-Exeter/Paignton semi-fast is only slightly delayed, the fast Plymouth/Penzance can easily have to stop here because it's caught up.

I don't know what the situation is regarding previously discussed signalling upgrades in this area, but any new service will certainly add to the case in favour of increasing the signal aspect to minimum 3-aspect all the way through the section. A particular challenge is control actually changes in this section as well; Somerton Ground frame is the boundary between Westbury and Exeter control.

Something else as well, how many more services can Frome station handle before the second platform would have to reopen to handle service demand?

 

[Discuss223]

It's a good idea in theory. The South West often gets over looked compared to other parts of the country, such as the north which has the "Northern Powerhouse" and "TransPennine Upgrade" schemes. Trains to and from Weston S Mare would be very popular in the summer. Although 153s would give versatility, in being easily split and joined to customise the length per demand, they are essentially 37 year old units (they were built in 1987 as 155s - converted in 1992 to 153s) that have spent a lot of time out of service now since withdrawal. They also utilise Leyland bus parts, of which their integrity was called in to question in the Winsford crash of the similarly designed Class 142. The 153s have had issues with bodywork sagging in the centre of the coach and they are not fully PRM compliant - for example, they have no handicapped accessible toilet. The service pattern, direct links and on-board service would need to be a huge selling point for the venture to be a success. Text from the Go-Op website says that rail ticketing on open access operators should be aligned with franchised ticketing in a "seamless as possible" manner. So I suspect they may not be introducing any operator specific tickets - in the way that Grand Central and Hull Trains have.

 

[Harpo]

In GWR's defence, they actually do make quite an effort for Glastonbury.

But usually by cancelling trains on other routes isn’t it??

 

[GordonT]

Seems a tad early to be April 1st?

 

[John R]

I suspect the Thingley Jn to Bradford Jn section will require significant investment - at least partial doubling - before that can be achieved.

I am surprised too that while capacity issues on it are mentioned in the decision letter, there isn’t a requirement for Go-op to fund any improvement in the same way they are for level crossing improvements.

Swindon to Westbury is, as I understand it, (and always has been) a core part of their proposition. I just can’t see the service being viable without it.

 

[irish_rail]

It's a good idea in theory. The South West often gets over looked compared to other parts of the country, such as the north which has the "Northern Powerhouse" and "TransPennine Upgrade" schemes. Trains to and from Weston S Mare would be very popular in the summer. Although 153s would give versatility, in being easily split and joined to customise the length per demand, they are essentially 37 year old units (they were built in 1987 as 155s - converted in 1992 to 153s) that have spent a lot of time out of service now since withdrawal. They also utilise Leyland bus parts, of which their integrity was called in to question in the Winsford crash of the similarly designed Class 142. The 153s have had issues with bodywork sagging in the centre of the coach and they are not fully PRM compliant - for example, they have no handicapped accessible toilet. The service pattern, direct links and on-board service would need to be a huge selling point for the venture to be a success. Text from the Go-Op website says that rail ticketing on open access operators should be aligned with franchised ticketing in a "seamless as possible" manner. So I suspect they may not be introducing any operator specific tickets - in the way that Grand Central and Hull Trains have.

Completely agree the south west needs "levelling up", but this isn't the scheme to do it. Something like high capacity , quick trains linking Plymouth, Bristol and Cardiff would do far more for the south west and for a far far greater number of people. This proposal will just slow down intercity trains. As another poster points out, the huge signal section from Castle Cary to Somerton will be an issue, it already is, so I dread to think what will happen should this nonsense proposal actually ever see the light of day.

 

[Snow1964]

Something else as well, how many more services can Frome station handle before the second platform would have to reopen to handle service demand?

Frome biggest problem is the terminating trains (from Bristol), which wait then reverse, there are also a few early and late trains from London that start/finish and reverse there. The terminating trains effectively block the line whilst waiting.

There is a loop on Westbury side, but anything sitting in the platform blocks the single line. The double track bridge span over a road just west of the station was removed and replaced by single track bridge some years ago, so can't even reopen the second platform without rebuilding the bridge (or shortening platform).

One possible solution might be a staggered platform, making existing part an east facing bay, then project the west end to a slewed through line. The couple of terminating IETs would have to use the longer through section, not short bay. It avoids all the complications of footbridges and lifts to second platform if they are both accessed on one side. Could also have footpath access to this new platform at far end (Printworks area, where new homes are being built)

 

[Harpo]

Titfield Thunderbolt 2.

Sorry. Can’t un-think that one.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Text from the Go-Op website says that rail ticketing on open access operators should be aligned with franchised ticketing in a "seamless as possible" manner. So I suspect they may not be introducing any operator specific tickets - in the way that Grand Central and Hull Trains have.

They've specifically said they won't, except for special offers.

Open access rail

How can communities develop their own rail services? From competition to co-operation Since the early days of rail privatisation, it has been possible to operate services outside the ‘franchi…

go-op.coop

How do you sell through tickets?
Open access services should be, as far as possible, a seamless part of the wider rail network. When you buy a ticket for route that starts on our network but ends far away, you don’t need separate tickets – the system of revenue allocation that operators all use ensure that operators are fairly rewarded for the part of the journey they most likely supplied.

We do still have the option to issue ‘Go-op only’ tickets – but we’ll limit that to special and discounted offers for our members.

 

[Killingworth]

£1.5m of level crossing improvements when Network Rail have confirmed exactly what needs doing, confirmed the price and confirmed when they will be completed. Show me the colour of your money to pay for it. That could push any start date back another year or so?

Resurrecting idle 153s and operating them depends on that so contracts of employment for crews and servicing can't start immediately.

Sir Hunphrey would say this is a brave proposition.

 

[norbitonflyer]

They've specifically said they won't, except for special offers.

So they won't, except when they will.

This lot have been trying to run a service for years.

Wikipedia lists five previous proposals, going back to at least 2010.
1. 2010 Yeovil to Oxford with extensions to Birmingham, to start operation in 2014. Scotched by the collapse of CoOp Bank, its main backer, in 2013.
2. 2011 Using Parry people Movers on the Mid Hants Railway and/or Ludgershall branch to connect with SWT. technical issues with tghe PPM prototype ended that plan
3. 2016 proposal: Taunton to Swindon, later extended to Nuneaton. To start in 2019, using Class 185s or 195s.
4. 2019 modified proposal: Taunton- Oxford and Yeovil to Nuneaton. proposal withdrawn later that year
5. 2021 proposal: Swindon to Bishops Lydeard (to connecct with West Somerset railway) to begin 2022
6. 2022 modified proposal: Swindon to Weston Super Mare, to begin December 2025. This is the proposal ORR has now approved

 

[The exile]

They've specifically said they won't, except for special offers.

Unless we’re going over to single leg pricing for everything nothing else would really work on a local service like this, particularly on what are likely to be the busiest sections. It’s not like a Lumo journey London - Edinburgh where most people are able to commit to a departure time.