Warrior2852
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That would have been ambitious if it was anywhere near the size of a 139, that *just* about manages capacity on a 1 station branch line with 6 trains per hour.
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New Go-op train service between Swindon, Taunton and Weston-super-Mare approved by ORR
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I don't think I have ever travelled from Taunton to Frome, Westbury or Trowbridge, or met anyone who did. And while I have certainly gone to Castle Cary, the station is nowhere near the place it is named after. There's a long footpath over the fields, in winter you would need to take Wellingtons with you ...
Frome station is woefully underserved, so giving it a more frequent service could be really beneficial for the town. Likewise for Melksham. Of course, most people would probably use these trains to change at Westbury or Chippenham for Bristol / Bath / London, so not much of the revenue would go to Go-op. But if they can manage to get this off the ground if could create a big boost in local rail usage.
The service could provide a good link into Devon and Cornwall from Chippenham and Swindon, avoiding having to go through Bristol. In the other direction Swindon is very well connected and perhaps cutting the Bristol corner off could save time for some journeys.
That being said whether this route is any faster I don't know and it does feel like a niche use case.
Nice to hear we aren’t has hated with the GWR B&H drivers as feared.
Many a time I’ve sailed past Woodborough only for a GWR express to catch me up a couple of signal sections later whilst toddling up Savernake at 30mph!
One of the issues for commuters on the Melksham line is the gap in departures from Swindon between 1515 and 1735. This means that people wanting to commute to Chippenham, say to Wiltshire College, have a latest arrival at 0811, and a choice of departures at 1537 or 1750. That gap is going to discourage a lot of people, so an additional service filling that gap could not only benefit Go-op, but also mean that the existing morning trains are busier with people switching from other modes of transport.
I do think what is missing is a local service over the Westbury-Taunton-(Exeter) section.
Whether it's operated by these guys or GWR is by-the-by, but there are a good number of small towns which don't have a railway service at all (Langport and Somerton quoted, also Wellington and Cullompton).
I can see that - potentially - a Westbury-Exeter (not Weston) might work if the old pattern to the West Country of one fast, one slightly-slower IC every two hours giving an hourly service (the latter serving Westbury as well as Tiverton Parkway) to Plymouth and beyond operated, with the service immediately following the latter out of Westbury. Presumably it would get to Exeter well in advance of the next IC one hour later.
The lack of "local" services on IC lines and the closure of stations at reasonably sizeable places is quite a marked pattern throughout the country. Swindon to Bristol is another route which springs to mind where there would probably be demand for a local stopping service if they reopened intermediate stations at some of the larger places i.e. Wootton Bassett, Corsham. I remember seeing such a proposal as long ago as the 90s but it hasn't happened, yet.
Interestingly some continental countries such as Germany seem to do far better with local stopping services on IC lines in relatively rural areas (indeed, they are the norm in my experience of travelling by train to Munich via both Nuremberg and Stuttgart), but I think this is because there is far more four-tracking.
Whether it's operated by these guys or GWR is by-the-by, but there are a good number of small towns which don't have a railway service at all (Langport and Somerton quoted, also Wellington and Cullompton).
I can see that - potentially - a Westbury-Exeter (not Weston) might work if the old pattern to the West Country of one fast, one slightly-slower IC every two hours giving an hourly service (the latter serving Westbury as well as Tiverton Parkway) to Plymouth and beyond operated, with the service immediately following the latter out of Westbury. Presumably it would get to Exeter well in advance of the next IC one hour later.
The lack of "local" services on IC lines and the closure of stations at reasonably sizeable places is quite a marked pattern throughout the country. Swindon to Bristol is another route which springs to mind where there would probably be demand for a local stopping service if they reopened intermediate stations at some of the larger places i.e. Wootton Bassett, Corsham. I remember seeing such a proposal as long ago as the 90s but it hasn't happened, yet.
Interestingly some continental countries such as Germany seem to do far better with local stopping services on IC lines in relatively rural areas (indeed, they are the norm in my experience of travelling by train to Munich via both Nuremberg and Stuttgart), but I think this is because there is far more four-tracking.
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Killingworth
Established Member
An area I probably need to discover. According to OS maps Castle Cary looks a nice walk of about a mile uphill on Monarch's Way. A reasonable proposition perhaps - with more hardy folk when the railway was new before cars and bicycles! However aerial views suggest the current car park could cope with more users.
But if the service was improved, demand would improve too.
Lots of college students travelling between WsM and Bridgwater, and between Taunton and Bridgwater. But they are put off using the train since its only an hourly service. (and since many services were extended to Penzance, an increasingly unreliable service!)
If you get an effectively half hour service on this line, then many more people would be happy using it.
It's good for people working in Swindon but not so good for school or college users, I agree.
It would be better to run the 1515 later even if that means a longer, 3-hour gap before it - but I guess paths and/or stock do not permit this.
Isn't the problem that it is a long way round from Frome to places that people may want to get to like Bath or Bristol?
It looks like only a small section is on "rural" footpath, though that can be avoided by sticking to the road via a slightly longer route.
Most of the way seems to be through the "suburbs" of the town though, either via the B-road or via small residential roads.
Caveat: I have only ever travelled through Castle Cary station in darkness; this is based on the map.
And a class 153 is a poor use of scarce track capacity, even a pair of them.
Have two-car DMUs (assuming a pair) not been the norm for local services in more rural areas since at least the 1960s?
I understand that demand might not be sufficient to warrant the service, but it seems odd to dismiss a service just because it's a one- or two-car DMU when such services are the norm all over the place.
The alternative of inserting the stops into a longer IC service would slow down the journey for long-distance passengers.
Maybe. Trying to think of how long the bus journey to Frome from Bath was, in my day (90s) there was a quite-fast X3 from Bristol and Bath direct via Norton St. Philip which did the journey pretty quickly and a slower 265 via Trowbridge. There was also the 184 via Radstock, also slower.
If the X3 or its equivalent still runs, that might edge it over the train to Bath, but I can see the train would be significantly faster to Bristol were it to run more frequently. That was the other factor favouring the bus in the 90s: the X3 was hourly, the train had three-hour gaps at times.
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Langport (and Somerton) are compact settlements right by the line and ought to do well, in the same way Bridgwater has a large market for bringing people into Taunton.
Unfortunately the powers that be seem more interested in the Devizes Gateway aka massive car park with 99% modal share to car, followed by the inevitable dormitory suburb which will again totally car dependent.
I would prefer it, if this operator had opted for serving one route well, rather than a Jack of all Trades. Warminster and Frome have a better service than a few years ago, while Bruton is very underserved and Wootton Bassett is a third deserving case for a new station.
Swindon, or even Oxford to Taunton would tick a lot of boxes, but Westbury is already congested and the timetable needs a regularity which isn't going to happen when Frome acquires its third operator, each offering their own canine breakfast of a timetable with weekday service intervals to Westbury currently of between six minutes and more than two hours.
Yes, the X3 of the early 1990s got cut back to Bath, then became the 267, and now the D2. The 265 wasn't particularly direct.
Looks like the D2 and D2x are just under an hour from Frome to Bath in free moving traffic, but go over an hour at peak times.
Bartsimho
Member
From a quick search on Google Maps there is the D2x between Frome and Bath which takes 49 minutes. Although there is GWR 2T59 which takes 43 minutes so they are competitive with each other. There is the 2V60 which takes only 35 minutes however.
To Bristol it looks like the train will always be quicker as the D2x goes all the way taking 2hr 1min while the trains take around 1hr
I do remember the X3 becoming the 267 but I moved away from the area after that so lost touch with any further changes.
I'd have guessed about 50 minutes for the X3 but too long ago to remember!
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I think there will be growth from certain flows along the proposed Go-Op route. Getting between London and Frome can be difficult due to the local trains often not connecting well with the intercity trains at Westbury, so running to Swindon for onward connections will probably be a journey time improvement in some cases.
But this is clearly going to have very limited appeal? A lot of the journeys can be achieved relatively quickly by changing at Bristol or Westbury.
The TransWilts services (via Melksham), whilst busier than they used to be, still usually have ample capacity on the GWR services that stop there. So whilst the extra service might generate some demand, there’s unlikely to be suppressed demand from capacity issues.
But this is clearly going to have very limited appeal? A lot of the journeys can be achieved relatively quickly by changing at Bristol or Westbury.
The TransWilts services (via Melksham), whilst busier than they used to be, still usually have ample capacity on the GWR services that stop there. So whilst the extra service might generate some demand, there’s unlikely to be suppressed demand from capacity issues.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
Are we all sure we've got the name "Go-op" correct? Because their proposals all seem to come from the same sort of woo-fuelled disordered thinking as Gwyneth Paltrow's notorious "goop" website!
Oxfordblues
Member
- Joined
- 22 Dec 2013
- Messages
- 847
I'm lucky to be the proud owner of a Western Region status pass (second class). I wonder if it will be valid on this new service?
What sort of state are the stored 153s in? They have been laid up for a good few years now. I’m guessing they’re going to need a lot of corrosion repairs and mechanical overhaul to bring back into service. Also none of them have had any PRM mods (one of the reasons they were withdrawn in the first place), which won’t come cheap.
Despite the circuitous route, the train is still slightly quicker than the bus between Frome and Bath. The main disadvantage is that trains are so infrequent. If there was something closer to a 1tph service (decent connection required of course), it might tempt many more people to use it, including some who simply don't like to travel by bus.
Snow1964
Established Member
There used to be direct rail services (via Radstock), but these lines closed when population was much lower.
There is an hourly bus from Frome to Bath, but it zigzags around going via large villages / small towns. Anyone wanting to go west from Frome area to Wells, Street, Glastonbury, Shelton Mallet etc by bus has to go via Bath and change.
Although Clunky, the recent parliamentary boundary changes adding constituencies to the area, is pretty good indication that population has grown. And no longer an area with just small towns.
There are lots of former stations that closed, that serve towns that have grown hugely. There were lots of Halts too
Closed stations include :
Wooten Basset, Dauntsey, Christian Milford, Lacock, Beanacre, Broughton Gifford, Holt, Staverton, Witham, Strap Lane, Alford, Keinton Mandeville, Charlton Mackrell, Somerton, Long Sutton and Pitney, Lamgport East, Atheny, Lyng, Durlston, Creech St Michael
(apologies if I missed some), not including from Taunton towards Weston
RailWonderer
Established Member
The frequency is low on this route for a reason, this area of the country is relatively - to the rest of the UK - sparsely populated. I don't see enough demand and I think it's just a few dreamers playing trains. And if these services will use 75mph units, how will they be pathed to avoid 125mph GWR fasts?
Another direct route that was closed. It's actually double the distance from Frome to Bristol having to go round via Trowbridge compared to the onetime North Somerset line.
Meanwhile, one has to realise that, despite a railway line "appearing to be there", the infrastructure has been adapted in more recent times to the current minimal service, for track and signalling etc. Frome loop was singled. Trowbridge to Chippenham was singled. Taunton east end layout was rationalised. Huge long signal sections were installed on Castle Cary to Cogload, and elsewhere. Even today significant delays arise. My story of Elizabeth line delays to Canary Wharf at lunchtime because the first Weymouth to Bristol train of the day was later starting is instructive:
Elizabeth line reliability issues
Abbey Wood readers are supposed to be installed “this summer”. Custom House readers still doesn’t have a date. I believe the issue at Custom House only affects PAYG Oyster users. The announcement on the DLR platforms have changed to reflect this. It now says: ”Please remember to touch out with...
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TheSmiths82
Member
I suggest they start by redesigning the website so it doesn't like something from 2005. If it was a public sector website it would actually be breaking accessibility laws. If they want investors to take them seriously then the first impression really counts. I wish them good luck, but without a huge amount of spare money I am not sure how they could afford to actually run a passenger service. Sadly most the existing open access services are backed by huge transport companies with fast amounts of reserves.
The last comment is perhaps a bit dismissive: what's wrong with dreaming? I'm not commenting on this specific case (except that, to me, Exeter makes more sense as a destination than Weston, and there's little point in the Swindon-Westbury section as it already has a service) but in general, if no-one ever sought to improve things then progress (in all areas of life) would never happen.
Timetabled immediately behind them (ideally with a connection at Westbury) so they get to Taunton well in advance of the next one? (75mph does 75 miles in one hour; 125mph does 75 miles in 36 minutes; Westbury to Taunton isn't as far as 75 miles; and even with the extra stops that leaves room for manoeuvre). And run in the hour the two-hourly additional to Exeter doesn't run?
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43096
On Moderation
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- 23 Nov 2015
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- 16,712
Will there be a “conscious uncoupling” too?
irish_rail
On Moderation
Exactly. Although linespeed on this section is 100mph, not 125, but the point is you are going to seriously disadvantage the majority, in order to provide some links between a few sparsely populated areas. I can imagine that B and H intercity stuff will actually have to be timetabled slower, but more to the point the minute there is disruption, the ability to make up time will be lost when Westbury Panel inevitably route the ontime GO OP out in front of the late running intercity.