New Go-op train service between Swindon, Taunton and Weston-super-Mare approved by ORR

[AlterEgo]

This has always been one of the more amusing crazybonkers proposals. Never a chance of making any money let alone raising any.

 

[takno]

This has always been one of the more amusing crazybonkers proposals. Never a chance of making any money let alone raising any.

I suspect we can look forward to the organisers coming out in a few weeks and saying that, although they are disappointed that they weren't able to raise the full amount in the current economic climate, they are glad that they've been able to raise awareness both of the idea of a co-op funded railway and of the pressing need for services on the line. Potentially they will even finish with a call for the government to step in now and organise a service, since their pathetic half-baked attempt has established the need for it in a way that a properly-validated economic assessment by independent consultants never could.

 

[AlterEgo]

I suspect we can look forward to the organisers coming out in a few weeks and saying that, although they are disappointed that they weren't able to raise the full amount in the current economic climate, they are glad that they've been able to raise awareness both of the idea of a co-op funded railway and of the pressing need for services on the line. Potentially they will even finish with a call for the government to step in now and organise a service, since their pathetic half-baked attempt has established the need for it in a way that a properly-validated economic assessment by independent consultants never could.

I do rather suspect that will be the next step!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

No it isn't. Short trains trundling around the countryside don't and never will make any money.

The principle of improving the service frequency at those stations is sound, though.

That's why we have longer trains which have selective door opening.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Long trains trundling around the countryside probably lose more money than short ones. The length of the train isn't the reason Go-op's proposal is nonsense.

 

[43096]

The principle of improving the service frequency at those stations is sound, though.

Is it? Providing additional services that are a financial basket case doesn’t strike me as a good use of taxpayers’ funds. You would probably get far more benefit for a fraction of the cost by looking at bus service provision instead.

 

[brad465]

The principle of improving the service frequency at those stations is sound, though.

That's why we have longer trains which have selective door opening.

There are some parts of their service proposals that I think have merit for GBR to potentially look at, particularly if/when more stock is ordered and certain re-signalling projects are completed (chiefly Castle Cary-Cogload). A direct link between Taunton and Frome, currently limited to a couple of services a day, has potential given they're both large growing towns, which could also be extended west to serve Bishops Lydeard (a separate scheme currently being pursued by Somerset Council), plus serve a station in the Langport-Somerton area if this got approved.

However the reversal at Taunton to go to Weston-super-Mare, plus the service through via Melksham to Swindon I think have less merit. All the former needs is better connection times at Taunton, perhaps possible if the above service idea is timed to allow this.

When it comes to Melksham, what that branch needs is at the very at least a passing loop, simply because of how often it's used for diverts (both planned and emergency).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Long trains trundling around the countryside probably lose more money than short ones. The length of the train isn't the reason Go-op's proposal is nonsense.

Not if you're adding extra stops into existing longer distance services and filling gaps between those with a small number of additional services to get to, or close to, at least an hourly clockface service ( separate from the fast expresses, I should add - but these services should connect in and out of the fast long distance expresses at major stations ).

The present service provision at some places like Frome is quite inadequate and does nothing to encourage modal shift.

There are some parts of their service proposals that I think have merit for GBR to potentially look at, particularly if/when more stock is ordered and certain re-signalling projects are completed (chiefly Castle Cary-Cogload). A direct link between Taunton and Frome, currently limited to a couple of services a day, has potential given they're both large growing towns, which could also be extended west to serve Bishops Lydeard (a separate scheme currently being pursued by Somerset Council), plus serve a station in the Langport-Somerton area if this got approved.

However the reversal at Taunton to go to Weston-super-Mare, plus the service through via Melksham to Swindon I think have less merit. All the former needs is better connection times at Taunton, perhaps possible if the above service idea is timed to allow this.

When it comes to Melksham, what that branch needs is at the very at least a passing loop, simply because of how often it's used for diverts (both planned and emergency).

Exactly my point... some of the existing services are so poor that it's hardly surprising that demand is low at present.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

This has always been one of the more amusing crazybonkers proposals. Never a chance of making any money let alone raising any.

Yes, if anything it was somewhat cruel to get locals hopes up so much considering the low chances of anything coming to fruition without the means to properly finance the operation.

 

[zwk500]

The present service provision at some places like Frome is quite inadequate and does nothing to encourage modal shift.

One problem in this part of the world is that a lot of stations aren't particularly well sited for the towns themselves (often due to Topographical reasons). As journeys are door-to-door not station to station, this means for much of the population in the catchment area, even if a train existed at the perfect time it still wouldn't trigger modal shift.

Exactly my point... some of the existing services are so poor that it's hardly surprising that demand is low at present.

Also in this area, the towns aren't massive. Demand does have a ceiling, although certainly scope exists on these corridors for improvement.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Nothing that has happened has demonstrated there is a need to improve rail services. If they had raised £1 million from 1,000 investors they would still have got nowhere near their target but it would have demonstrated an appetite and potential demand for the service, but they have had 115 investors and barely raised anything. Some people making baseless claims doesn’t equate to evidence of demand.

Since they extended the fundraising deadline they have raised an average of less than £30 per day. They would have raised more by hanging around Taunton station begging for change.

Let’s not forget this appeal has received widespread and positive coverage in the media. It was covered by the BBC and had very positive articles in The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph and numerous lesser media outlets. They couldn’t have paid for better exposure than the article The Guardian. It was incredibly supportive and its readership is exactly the sort of people who would support a venture like this and they have still only raised a tiny percentage of their target.

 

[The exile]

One problem in this part of the world is that a lot of stations aren't particularly well sited for the towns themselves (often due to Topographical reasons). As journeys are door-to-door not station to station, this means for much of the population in the catchment area, even if a train existed at the perfect time it still wouldn't trigger modal shift.

Also in this area, the towns aren't massive. Demand does have a ceiling, although certainly scope exists on these corridors for improvement.

Not to mention the fact that with the best will in the world the rail route to the biggest centre of employment (Bristol) is very circuitous - even from Frome, let alone anywhere further West until you get to Taunton.

 

[brad465]

Not to mention the fact that with the best will in the world the rail route to the biggest centre of employment (Bristol) is very circuitous - even from Frome, let alone anywhere further West until you get to Taunton.

Furthermore, Temple Meads is a good 15-20 minute walk from the city centre, although the development of Temple Quay has brought more of the city in much closer proximity to the station.

In any case the key towns along this route are probably more for retirement and local employment populations anyway; I doubt Bristol or other large employment area commuters would live here. They are the sort of towns that need more public transport to cater for demographics less able to use cars, but would never be profitable, so have to come from council/government funding.

 

[zwk500]

In any case the key towns along this route are probably more for retirement and local employment populations anyway; I doubt Bristol or other large employment area commuters would live here. They are the sort of towns that need more public transport to cater for demographics less able to use cars, but would never be profitable, so have to come from council/government funding.

Don't underestimate how expensive it is to live in Bristol now. The commuter zone is growing rapidly, with local rail services being boosted to 2tph to assist.

 

[brad465]

Don't underestimate how expensive it is to live in Bristol now. The commuter zone is growing rapidly, with local rail services being boosted to 2tph to assist.

I think there are more attractive towns than the likes of Frome for commuting into Bristol from though, both in terms of affordability and journey time. Thinking particularly of Chippenham, Westbury, Trowbridge, Weston-super-Mare, maybe even Swindon.

 

[Annetts key]

Nothing that has happened has demonstrated there is a need to improve rail services.

Are you sure? Have you done any investigations?

I can't speak across the whole route, but things do change over time. For example, Between Bridgwater and Highbridge plans to build a new motorway junction (22A) have been announced. Bridgwater and surrounding area is already experiencing higher property prices due to the number of workers for Hinkley Point C. And that's before the new battery factory construction has started.

This may or may not lead to a potential increase in the number of passengers, but if the service is poor, it's hardly going to attract more people to travel by train.

Generally speaking, passenger numbers are increasing again. We as a country, for many reasons should be encouraging our citizens to travel by public transport. That includes using the railways. Especially as in this part of the world the bus service is extremely poor.

Furthermore, Temple Meads is a good 15-20 minute walk from the city centre, although the development of Temple Quay has brought more of the city in much closer proximity to the station.

In any case the key towns along this route are probably more for retirement and local employment populations anyway; I doubt Bristol or other large employment area commuters would live here. They are the sort of towns that need more public transport to cater for demographics less able to use cars, but would never be profitable, so have to come from council/government funding.

It takes me 15 minutes at most to walk between the city centre and B.T.M.

Which towns are you talking about?

Bridgwater is experiencing a bit of a boom at the moment.

The line between W-s-M and Taunton is a bit of a commuter line. Not as big as the flows into Bristol, granted, but there is still a surprising number of passengers given the limited service.

The question is, is there a lack of demand because of the poor service or because of other reasons.

Plus the other factors that may have not been considered, such as the extra expense of owning and running a car for those who are less well off. And that Somerset and nearby counties are part of tourism in the area. And they may want to increase the number of visitors to the area.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Are you sure? Have you done any investigations?

I can't speak across the whole route, but things do change over time. For example, Between Bridgwater and Highbridge plans to build a new motorway junction (22A) have been announced. Bridgwater and surrounding area is already experiencing higher property prices due to the number of workers for Hinkley Point C. And that's before the new battery factory construction has started.

This may or may not lead to a potential increase in the number of passengers, but if the service is poor, it's hardly going to attract more people to travel by train.

Generally speaking, passenger numbers are increasing again. We as a country, for many reasons should be encouraging our citizens to travel by public transport. That includes using the railways. Especially as in this part of the world the bus service is extremely poor.

How have motorway junctions and Hinkley C got any relevance at all? Are you suggesting Hinckley C workers are going to commute from Westbury or Frome by train? It is total fantasy.

As for passenger numbers increasing again, so what? Most services around the country had ample capacity pre-2019 and if passenger numbers return to those levels will have ample capacity then as well.

 

[brad465]

Which towns are you talking about?

Frome, Bruton and Castle Cary. Maybe Yeovil to a lesser extent.

Bridgwater is experiencing a bit of a boom at the moment.

The line between W-s-M and Taunton is a bit of a commuter line. Not as big as the flows into Bristol, granted, but there is still a surprising number of passengers given the limited service.

The question is, is there a lack of demand because of the poor service or because of other reasons.

Plus the other factors that may have not been considered, such as the extra expense of owning and running a car for those who are less well off. And that Somerset and nearby counties are part of tourism in the area. And they may want to increase the number of visitors to the area.

I do agree this line needs more services - if I decided the provision, I'd go for 1tph non-stop Bristol-Taunton en route to Plymouth as currently, 2tph Bristol-Taunton all stations, one to at least Exeter, the other terminating at Taunton, and 1t2ph calling only at W-S-M and Bridgwater between BRI and TAU. This would see 3-4tph in total, with 2-3tph serving Bridgwater and everything else a minimum of 2tph. The Taunton stopping terminator could be extension of the WSM terminator from Severn Beach, the semi-fast Taunton terminator could be extending the WSM terminator from London, so no net change in passenger paths is seen east of WSM.

This would need further work though, including Taunton P6 being accessible without any reversals and potentially more 4-aspect signalling along the mostly 3-aspect route too.

 

[zwk500]

Frome, Bruton and Castle Cary. Maybe Yeovil to a lesser extent.

Frome is getting towards a Bristol commuter area, but agree Bruton, Castle Cary and Yeovil are not.

I do agree this line needs more services - if I decided the provision, I'd go for 1tph non-stop Bristol-Taunton en route to Plymouth as currently, 2tph Bristol-Taunton all stations, one to at least Exeter, the other terminating at Taunton, and 1t2ph calling only at W-S-M and Bridgwater between BRI and TAU. This would see 3-4tph in total, with 2-3tph serving Bridgwater and everything else a minimum of 2tph. The Taunton stopping terminator could be extension of the WSM terminator from Severn Beach, the semi-fast Taunton terminator could be extending the WSM terminator from London, so no net change in passenger paths is seen east of WSM.

This would need further work though, including Taunton P6 being accessible without any reversals and potentially more 4-aspect signalling along the mostly 3-aspect route too.

Personally, I'd have:
2tph Bristol-Weston SM all stations (can be interworked from Filton/Severn Beach trains if needed),
1tph Bristol-Taunton calling Nailsea & Backwell, Weston SM, Highbridge & Burnham and Bridgwater (the Cardiff-West Country Service),
1tph Bristol-Taunton fast XC.
Additional extensions of London trains to Weston SM as required at peak times (incl. weekends).

This gives a reasonable balance of resources (including infrastructure) needed to operate the service, connectivity to the key regional hub of Bristol, and journey times for smaller stations that would need to interchange at Bristol for wider connectivity.

 

[brad465]

Personally, I'd have:
2tph Bristol-Weston SM all stations (can be interworked from Filton/Severn Beach trains if needed),
1tph Bristol-Taunton calling Nailsea & Backwell, Weston SM, Highbridge & Burnham and Bridgwater (the Cardiff-West Country Service),
1tph Bristol-Taunton fast XC.
Additional extensions of London trains to Weston SM as required at peak times (incl. weekends).

This gives a reasonable balance of resources (including infrastructure) needed to operate the service, connectivity to the key regional hub of Bristol, and journey times for smaller stations that would need to interchange at Bristol for wider connectivity.

This is more or less what the existing service is, except maybe an additional service between Bristol and WsM.

 

[Annetts key]

Frome, Bruton and Castle Cary. Maybe Yeovil to a lesser extent.

With regards to Frome and Bristol, of course there use to be a more direct line once upon a time. I'm speaking about the Bristol and North Somerset Railway. But washouts and a decline in coal traffic resulted in it closing

 

[mrcheek]

The line between W-s-M and Taunton is a bit of a commuter line. Not as big as the flows into Bristol, granted, but there is still a surprising number of passengers given the limited service.

Taunton to Weston is begging for improvement.
With only one train an hour, most people simply find another way to travel

If they doubled the service to every 30 minutes throughout the day, the number of passengers would more than double