New Northern crew depots at Blackburn and Bradford?

[Moonshot]

Well actually. In a morning you want earlier services into the city. And in an evening you want later services out of the city. So having the depots aware from the centres makes more sense in that respect.

Of course that sort of thing happened.

Which is why we have a number of satellite facilities. But the comment made that big city centres dont work is frankly complete garbage.

 

[furnessvale]

Dear me your source for this is impeccable ???? Im actually on site and I can categorically say your spouting rubbish.

If you are on site now, you must have been in nappies during the pre privatisation era I am talking about.

If such practises have now ceased, I am pleased that privatisation has sorted the problem out.

 

[pemma]

The only thing I've ever heard relating to both taxis and Newton Heath before is when First North Western used an unreliable Rossendale based taxi company to taxi crews around and trains were often late because crews weren't delivered to the right place on time.

 

[bramling]

Which is why we have a number of satellite facilities. But the comment made that big city centres dont work is frankly complete garbage.

It works well if you have lots of units able to stable between the peaks and thus have work performed on them. If not, you end up with a load of units having to come back to the depot late night and leave early in the morning.

Somewhere like Hornsey works well. The outer-suburban units (365s and 387s) almost entirely stable at the country end overnight, but a decent number of units go into Hornsey between the peaks. Meanwhile the inner-suburban 313s spend the night at Hornsey, with less far to travel to wherever they need to be in the morning. The snag is there are an increasing number of lengthened trains running all day now, which puts strain on things.

 

[lejog]

If you are on site now, you must have been in nappies during the pre privatisation era I am talking about.

If such practises have now ceased, I am pleased that privatisation has sorted the problem out.

And of what possible relevance is this argument relating to alleged decades old practices to your statement that " big city depots do not work" (present tense). TOCs don't take multimillion pound decisions based on what happened in the Dark Ages.

AIUI, Blackburn is required because Newton Heath will be full with increased services on Blackburn, Atherton and Calder Valley routes, extensions to Chester, Liverpool, Man Airport and Rochdale, train lengthening to 5or6*23m trains and the withdrawal of 15m pacers, making way for more 23m trains (195s, 170s, 158s).

 

[Elecman]

Dear me your source for this is impeccable ???? Im actually on site and I can categorically say your spouting rubbish.

I can assure you that it is certainly true of other depots as well from personal knowledge

 

[Loop & Link]

Any idea what routes the depot will sign?

My guess is:

Blackburn to Man Vic via Burnley/Bolton
Blackburn-Clitheroe
Blackpool South-Preston-Blackburn-Colne

 

[Baxenden Bank]

If you are on site now, you must have been in nappies during the pre privatisation era I am talking about.

If such practises have now ceased, I am pleased that privatisation has sorted the problem out.

Certainly in the mid 1980's Newton Heath was told from on high - sort yourselves out or you will close.

 

[lejog]

Any idea what routes the depot will sign?

My guess is:

Blackburn to Man Vic via Burnley/Bolton
Blackburn-Clitheroe
Blackpool South-Preston-Blackburn-Colne

Since there are two late night services from Leeds to Blackburn, I'd add Blackpool-York.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Dear me your source for this is impeccable ???? Im actually on site and I can categorically say your spouting rubbish.

I know this is off topic but back in the late 1970s cars could regularly be seen inside Reddish depot. I never did ask whether they belonged to depot staff or whether they were there for some other reason.

 

[IanXC]

Since there are two late night services from Leeds to Blackburn, I'd add Blackpool-York.

I've pondered whether Blackburn will take over the DalesRail work too.

On another note, has anyone seen anything definitive around what work will be undertaken on units? I have only heard reference to it as a "stabling point", and whilst the planning application shows a wash road, it shows little else. So presumably we are really looking at a stabling point, rather than a unit depot to rival Newton Heath for instance?

Network Rail enhancements document talks of this stabling as a key enabler for the Blackpool electrification blockade, so its especially good to see its ready!

 

[snowball]

According to Rail magazine #838 p. 27, the new Northern Rail DMU depot at Blackburn has been completed at a cost of £28M, three times over the estimate.

 

[Darren R]

According to Rail magazine #838 p. 27, the new Northern Rail DMU depot at Blackburn has been completed at a cost of £28M, three times over the estimate.

Sounds remarkably similar to the story that appeared in the Lancashire Telegraph on 18th July 2017 that has already been commented upon earlier in the thread: http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...ackburn_creates_more_than_100_new_train_jobs/

Mr Sumpter revealed the total cost of the new ‘Harrison Street’ depot being built on the derelict site of disused coal sidings between the existing track, Sumner Street, Duckworth Street,and Brunswick Street was £28m.
[...]
He also revealed the actual cost of the new depot was £28m, three times the £10m investment which had been originally expected locally, including a new railway bridge over Galligreaves Street.

In this instance, the phrase "three times the £10m investment which had been originally expected locally" seems to mean "three times the £10m figure that the Lancashire Telegraph originally quoted erroneously because the reporter misunderstood." Given how much work was planned, £10 million didn't seem likely at the time it was first reported locally.

Incidentally, the depot receives its first trains in a few weeks when the Preston - Blackpool blockade begins.

I stumbled across this gallery of photos taken within the completed depot: http://elmro.org/imagegallery/?gallery=king-street-new-tmd-depot

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I stumbled across this gallery of photos taken within the completed depot: http://elmro.org/imagegallery/?gallery=king-street-new-tmd-depot

I see they had Yosser Hughes (for the younger readers: Boys from The Blackstuff, 1980's gritty drama series) doing the brickwork for the entrance sign. Gissa job, I can do that, I can lay bricks.

 

[snowball]

Blckburn depot officially opened today:

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailGNRP/status/923604460366163970

 

[furnessvale]

Blckburn depot officially opened today:

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailGNRP/status/923604460366163970

This article actually says on time and under budget.

 

[Sox]

I stumbled across this gallery of photos taken within the completed depot: http://elmro.org/imagegallery/?gallery=king-street-new-tmd-depot

Good spot re those photos, looks quite an impressive set up (the shunters even get their own cabin!).

 

[snowball]

A load of video clips on the Great North Twitter feed:

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailGNRP

Scroll down as necessary.

 

[Sox]

A load of video clips on the Great North Twitter feed:

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailGNRP

Scroll down as necessary.

Even more amazing when you think the whole site could have easily been lost to redevelopment (maybe the site was owned by British Coal and not Network Rail).

If, for some reason, you wanted to turn a set around I guess the nearest place would be Todmorden (only dreaming but looks like there is a turntable sized piece of land spare on the site).

 

[driver9000]

If a set needed turning it would more than likely be turned via Preston and the Lostock Hall "back line" using the shunt at Farington Junction.

 

[MancMetro]

Half-hourly Blackburn - Manchester Victoria service to start on December 10th:

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...ns_rail_boss_to_back_new_half_hourly_service/

BLACKBURN MP Kate Hollern was at hand to join Northern Rail boss Liam Sumpter and the official launch of the town's half-hourly service to Manchester.

The new every 30 minute trains will start on December 10 also linking in Darwen, Clitheroe and Bolton.

I will be interested to see how well these trains keep to time. Even with the extended Darwen loop, there are still long single-track sections between Blackburn and Bolton that will make things difficult if a train has a late departure from either of those stations.

 

[M60lad]

Is there still plans to actually run the Blackburn-Manchester service as a loop service? Running out via Rochdale, Todmorden and Copy Pit line and then when the train gets to Blackburn coming back to Manchester via Darwen and Bolton

 

[thealexweb]

Is there still plans to actually run the Blackburn-Manchester service as a loop service? Running out via Rochdale, Todmorden and Copy Pit line and then when the train gets to Blackburn coming back to Manchester via Darwen and Bolton

It will almost be a loop. The new off peak services will do Blackburn - Bolton - Manchester Victoria - Rochdale.

 

[montyburns56]

There's an interesting article here about the finished depot.

https://www.railengineer.uk/2017/11/07/constructing-blackburns-new-train-depot/

 

[Geeves]

Blackburn depot have been route learning up to Hellifield recently so that would probably indicate that work moving away from Blackpool depot. I believe Blackburn depot also (will) sign the the branch to Orsmkirk as well as far as Wigan Wallgate due to the amount of through work from Blackburn. I don't believe any Leeds work is transfering at Present. It stays at Blackpool N for those jobs not covered by Leeds or York.

Route card should look something like this

Blackburn via Todmorden/Darwen - Manchester Vic
Manchester Vic - Wigan Wallgate via Atherton/Bolton
Blackburn - Colne
Blackburn - Clitheroe/Hellifield
Blackburn - Preston - Blackpool N/S
Preston - Orsmkirk

As for the loop I think Northern are trying to keep Vic - Clitheroe as contained unit diagrams as its just simpler that way. Saying that today one came in from Clitheroe and went out back to Blackburn via Tod in one move so it happens anyway sometimes.

 

[Chrisyd]

On weekdays there is a two carriage train that does the loop and a bit more:
2N57 - 1520 BBN, 1610 RCD, 1635 MCV, 1655 BON, 1725 BBN, 1749 CLH

 

[gorilladan]

Blackburn depot have been route learning up to Hellifield recently so that would probably indicate that work moving away from Blackpool depot. I believe Blackburn depot also (will) sign the the branch to Orsmkirk as well as far as Wigan Wallgate due to the amount of through work from Blackburn. I don't believe any Leeds work is transfering at Present. It stays at Blackpool N for those jobs not covered by Leeds or York.

Route card should look something like this

Blackburn via Todmorden/Darwen - Manchester Vic
Manchester Vic - Wigan Wallgate via Atherton/Bolton
Blackburn - Colne
Blackburn - Clitheroe/Hellifield
Blackburn - Preston - Blackpool N/S
Preston - Orsmkirk

As for the loop I think Northern are trying to keep Vic - Clitheroe as contained unit diagrams as its just simpler that way. Saying that today one came in from Clitheroe and went out back to Blackburn via Tod in one move so it happens anyway sometimes.

Just a couple of minor points. Blackburn drivers haven't been road-learning Blackburn to Hellifield recently. The full drivers link from Blackpool North depot have been learning it. This would somewhat preclude the need for Blackburn drivers to sign it.
Vic to Wigan Wallgate via Atherton is not currently driven by Blackburn drivers. In order to retain route knowledge for transferee drivers "ex-Vic", a route refresh, Vic to Wigan Wallgate has been Incorporated into 1 docket.
The future routes to be signed by Blackburn drivers are somewhat unclear at the moment. The upcoming May timetable changes/additions, future Connect services, new traction, relative inexperience of the many new drivers et al are all adding to the complexity.
At the moment everyone (including staff) is guessing as to what routes will be driven by Blackburn. Established crew depots are loathe to give up/provide any diagrams as this has potential to adversely affect the donor depot in the future. The recasting of the timetable from May '18 increases many service frequencies/extending of some routes etc. Some of these increased frequencies/routes will go via Blackburn and it has been assumed that Blackburn drivers will operate them. This may not be the case. For instance, any traction stabled/refuelled/cleaned/serviced at King st depot will only be driven on/off by Blackburn staff, therefore they'll need to acquire and retain relevant traction knowledge. The 2 minute drive to/from depot/Blackburn station ain't anywhere near enough, standards are 1hr drive minimum. 158's are not diagrammed on any route currently driven by Blackburn drivers and currently do not operate in/out of King St depot. Thus no opportunity for minimum 1 hour driving.
The obvious logical solution may not be chosen if it'll put excessive cost-strain on depot training requirements, bearing in mind the relatively large number of new/trainee drivers at depot.
To sum up, current routes to/from Vic/Clitheroe/Preston/Colne/Ormskirk using current diesel stock 142's 150/1/2 153's 156's will more than likely continue.
Other routes are all up for grabs.

 

[Geeves]

Thanks for the corrections Dan, much appreciated.

 

[Bovverboy]

M60lad said:
Is there still plans to actually run the Blackburn-Manchester service as a loop service? Running out via Rochdale, Todmorden and Copy Pit line and then when the train gets to Blackburn coming back to Manchester via Darwen and Bolton

On weekdays there is a two carriage train that does the loop and a bit more:
2N57 - 1520 BBN, 1610 RCD, 1635 MCV, 1655 BON, 1725 BBN, 1749 CLH

2N57 is SO - the corresponding SSuX journey is 2N61. There is also a 2N50 (1720 ex-Blackburn - SSuX) which does Blackburn to Blackburn; as with 2N57/61, it does the loop in the clockwise direction. On Saturdays the corresponding departure from Blackburn runs to Wigan Wallgate.

My own feeling is that these complete loops are a bad idea, since they're bound to cause confusion, not least because from all stations on the 'loop' trains run to the same place in both directions, in this instance to Blackburn. We ourselves may be fully aware of where trains run, but I'm sure the infrequent passenger won't be.

I think a good link for the ex-Blackburn/Burnley trains would be the Atherton line, to Wigan Wallgate, Kirkby, or Southport (as prevails to a large extent now, of course). Then the only stations with 'two-way' trains would be Manchester Victoria, Salford Central, and Salford Crescent. That's until trains start running from Rochdale/beyond through to Blackburn/Clitheroe, when stations on the Rochdale line would have 'two-way' trains too, but I think that would still be better than having 'two-way' trains at places such as Darwen and Accrington, and Blackburn itself, of course.