New Northern Express service between Newcastle and Middlesbrough - speculation and ideas.

[TBY-Paul]

Looks like Northern are introducing an Express service between Newcastle and Middlesbrough starting in July. There are 6 Southbound & 6 Northbound services departing every 2 hours, calling at Thornaby, Hartlepool & Sunderland only
Newcastle departures:- 08.06, 10.17, 12.15, 14.18, 16.17 & 18.20
Middlesbrough departures:- 08.16, 10.16, 12.16, 14.16, 16.16 & 18.16.
Services start 3rd July, Monday to Saturday only
A major let down, going via the Durham coast, and not calling at Stockton is a surprise.
Details now in Realtime Trains, ID codes 1J**

 

[cuccir]

I'm not sure there's the space on the ECML for anything else, which is a shame but equally this route covers the three biggest population centres in the region.

They've cut 13 minutes from the all stops service so really do need to limit where they call to get time benefit. Thornaby allows changes to Darlington and is more or less as close to Stockton town centre as Stockton is anyway.

 

[TBY-Paul]

Train ID	Newcastle Dep	Midddlesbrough Arr	Journey Time
1J01	08.06	09.13	67 Minutes
1J03	10.17	11.27	70 Minutes
1J05	12.15	13.27	72 Minutes
1J07	14.18	15.27	69 Minutes
1J09	16.17	17.27	70 Minutes
1J11	18.20	19.27	67 Minutes

Train ID	Middlesborough Dep	Newcastle Arr	Journey Time
1J00	08.16	09.32	76 Minutes
1J02	10.16	11.32	76 Minutes
1J04	12.16	13.32	76 Minutes
1J06	14.16	15.31	75 Minutes
1J08	16.16	17.29	73 Minutes
1J10	18.16	19.31	75 Minutes

Although an improvement on current times, they are hardly earth shattering times.. going via Stillington would give an approximate journey time around 50-54 Minutes*
AIUI, the main issue with using the Stillington route was to do with getting across to the ECML and how that would impact the ECML.

* Based on current timings, Middlesbrough -Norton South 14 min (inc calls at Thornaby & Stockton), Ferryhill south-Newcastle 20mins (inc calling at Durham), Ferryhill South - Norton South can be covered by freight traffic in 19 mins

 

[zwk500]

Surely Sunderland and Hartlepool are more sensible intermediate points on a Newcastle-Middlesbrough train than the comparatively smaller cities of Durham or Chester-le-street, regardless of whether or not paths are available on the ECML?

 

[deanmachine]

Train ID	Newcastle Dep	Midddlesbrough Arr	Journey Time
1J01	08.06	09.13	67 Minutes
1J03	10.17	11.27	70 Minutes
1J05	12.15	13.27	72 Minutes
1J07	14.18	15.27	69 Minutes
1J09	16.17	17.27	70 Minutes
1J11	18.20	19.27	67 Minutes

Train ID	Middlesborough Dep	Newcastle Arr	Journey Time
1J00	08.16	09.32	76 Minutes
1J02	10.16	11.32	76 Minutes
1J04	12.16	13.32	76 Minutes
1J06	14.16	15.31	75 Minutes
1J08	16.16	17.29	73 Minutes
1J10	18.16	19.31	75 Minutes

Although an improvement on current times, they are hardly earth shattering times.. going via Stillington would give an approximate journey time around 50-54 Minutes*
AIUI, the main issue with using the Stillington route was to do with getting across to the ECML and how that would impact the ECML.

* Based on current timings, Middlesbrough -Norton South 14 min (inc calls at Thornaby & Stockton), Ferryhill south-Newcastle 20mins (inc calling at Durham), Ferryhill South - Norton South can be covered by freight traffic in 19 mins

Why would you miss out the second biggest city in the north east between Newcastle and 'Boro on an express route? Durham is a tiny place, Sunderland is almost 10 times bigger in terms of population. The old Northern Connect express that was going to go via the ECML was stupid too.

 

[ainsworth74]

Looks like Northern are introducing an Express service between Newcastle and Middlesbrough starting in July.

Worth noting that the slightly strange starting point, mid-timetable, is due to this being when platform 3 at Hartlepool is expected to open. Presumably they didn't feel there was capacity prior to this for the service to commence.

Surely Sunderland and Hartlepool are more sensible intermediate points on a Newcastle-Middlesbrough train than the comparatively smaller cities of Durham or Chester-le-street, regardless of whether or not paths are available on the ECML?

Why would you miss out the second biggest city in the north east between Newcastle and 'Boro on an express route? Durham is a tiny place, Sunderland is almost 10 times bigger in terms of population. The old Northern Connect express that was going to go via the ECML was stupid too.

My impression was that the reason for going via the ECML was that it was to provide a competitive Middlesbrough - Newcastle journey time rather than provide intermediate journey opportunities. In that light it really should have been viewed as a new service independent of what happened on the Durham Coast itself which clearly warrants two trains per hour throughout the day calling at most stations. In an ideal world we'd likely have two trains per hour down the Durham Coast calling at all (or most) stations and an hourly fast service between Middlesbrough and Newcastle (whichever way that ended up going). But living in the real world this is probably a good step in the right direction at least for providing extra services on the Durham Coast for the main settlements whilst improving the connectivity of Newcastle and Middlesbrough. Though the omission of Stockton is a slightly strange one.

I believe that increasing the frequency depends on Northern having additional units and crews and also getting more paths in/out of Newcastle which might have to wait until the ECML recast. That being said the current timings do some rather lacklustre so hopefully within a timetable change or two it will be possible to tighten those up a bit!

 

[Iskra]

Really great to see a new service becoming operational on the railway in the current climate!

 

[greyman42]

Durham is a tiny place, Sunderland is almost 10 times bigger in terms of population.

But certainly not in passenger numbers.

 

[Anvil1984]

Anyone who uses the Durham Coast on a weekend / school holidays can see there’s more need for an extra services through Hartlepool and based on loadings Seaham would be a better use of a stop that Stockton but as it is both miss out.

Northern just couldn’t get paths to go to the ECML after Stillington, that’s documented in the Track Access Application. Having to timetable a 75mph service crossing from the slows to the fasts in the Down Direction would have been interesting and probably not come out with the times anticipated as it’s probably be held at the signal protecting Tursdale awaiting a path

 

[Llandudno]

Isn’t there a spare path on the ECML that TransPennine don’t bother using anymore as they cancel so many trains…!

 

[Watershed]

Isn’t there a spare path on the ECML that TransPennine don’t bother using anymore as they cancel so many trains…!

The Newcastle <> Piccadilly service only runs every two hours, yes. However, I very much doubt that you'd manage to time a 75mph Sprinter in that path. That 1Pxx path was tight enough as it was and had to miss out some stations, let alone running 50mph slower and undoubtedly calling at Chester-le-Street and the like.

 

[xotGD]

Starting in July, there must be a good chance that Gateshead will chuck out some big no-heat 37s to work these services.

And then I woke up!


Anyway, good to see this introduced, albeit not via the originally proposed route. A contrast to the cutbacks in West Yorkshire.

 

[cuccir]

My impression was that the reason for going via the ECML was that it was to provide a competitive Middlesbrough - Newcastle journey time rather than provide intermediate journey opportunities. In that light it really should have been viewed as a new service independent of what happened on the Durham Coast itself which clearly warrants two trains per hour throughout the day calling at most stations. In an ideal world we'd likely have two trains per hour down the Durham Coast calling at all (or most) stations and an hourly fast service between Middlesbrough and Newcastle (whichever way that ended up going). But living in the real world this is probably a good step in the right direction at least for providing extra services on the Durham Coast for the main settlements whilst improving the connectivity of Newcastle and Middlesbrough. Though the omission of Stockton is a slightly strange one.

Yes, I don't think you're going to generate new journeys by making a 90 minute journey between the cities a 75 minute one. Whereas if you could get from Middlesbrough to Newcastle in under an hour via Stillington, you're radically improving regional connectivity - and competing with the car, which is 54 minutes.

Re: Stockton, Thornaby (444,000 uses in 21/22) is a much bigger station compared to Stockton (78, 162 uses in 21/22) and is only 10 minutes from Stockton high street anyway.

Durham is a tiny place, Sunderland is almost 10 times bigger in terms of population.

As well as the reasons already given, Durham - Middlesbrough would be a new direct journey, which would be much more likely to get people off cars or busses onto the trains, than a 9 minute improvement between Sunderland and Boro.

Equally, this route is the best the option available at the moment it seems and so be it.

 

[DanNCL]

Surely Sunderland and Hartlepool are more sensible intermediate points on a Newcastle-Middlesbrough train than the comparatively smaller cities of Durham or Chester-le-street, regardless of whether or not paths are available on the ECML?

Ideally there should be expresses via both. Middlesbrough - Durham is a route with a sizeable demand that’s currently best served by road, whilst stopping at Chester-le-Street would allow TPE to stop calling there, undoubtably an improvement for TPE and passengers alike.

But certainly not in passenger numbers.

Sunderland’s passenger numbers look lower than they really are because of Metro. Anyone that uses Metro, which is easily more than 50% of the passengers, won’t go on the national rail usage figures.

The Newcastle <> Piccadilly service only runs every two hours, yes. However, I very much doubt that you'd manage to time a 75mph Sprinter in that path. That 1Pxx path was tight enough as it was and had to miss out some stations, let alone running 50mph slower and undoubtedly calling at Chester-le-Street and the like.

The 1Pxx path also calls at Chester-le-Street so the time difference between that and a 90mph path (as the NE has 158s) wouldn’t be too significant.

 

[zwk500]

Ideally there should be expresses via both. Middlesbrough - Durham is a route with a sizeable demand that’s currently best served by road, whilst stopping at Chester-le-Street would allow TPE to stop calling there, undoubtably an improvement for TPE and passengers alike.

Yes, in an ideal world a Semi-fast via the Durham coast and a Fast via the ECML would be wonderful, but as the ECML isn't four-track the paths have to prioritised for longer distance traffic.

The 1Pxx path also calls at Chester-le-Street so the time difference between that and a 90mph path (as the NE has 158s) wouldn’t be too significant.

It doesn't need to be 'too' significant - even being only 2 minutes late at Newcastle could mean missing the platform slot.

 

[Anvil1984]

The 1Pxx path also calls at Chester-le-Street so the time difference between that and a 90mph path (as the NE has 158s) wouldn’t be too significant.

Even though the North East has 158s you’d have to time it for a 156 as there’s no way you could guarantee 158 usage (same as the Morpeths and evening Chathill run having to be timed for 156s for the same reason)

Durham Coast should get the first call on any extra services, there’s multiple Saturday services turning away 60 - 100 people minimum from Hartlepool onwards (and probably skewing the Sunderland figures as those who do manage to get on at Seaham on a weekend know there’s no chance of the guard being able to get past his local door for overcrowding)

 

[DanNCL]

It doesn't need to be 'too' significant - even being only 2 minutes late at Newcastle could mean missing the platform slot.

I’m pretty sure I’ve worked out previously that a 90mph or even a 75mph path is doable, with a couple of tweaks to other services that could be accommodated without causing conflicts elsewhere. I’ll work it out properly when I have the time, and in a thread in speculative discussion where it would be more appropriate than here.

Even though the North East has 158s you’d have to time it for a 156 as there’s no way you could guarantee 158 usage (same as the Morpeths and evening Chathill run having to be timed for 156s for the same reason)

Durham Coast should get the first call on any extra services, there’s multiple Saturday services turning away 60 - 100 people minimum from Hartlepool onwards (and probably skewing the Sunderland figures as those who do manage to get on at Seaham on a weekend know there’s no chance of the guard being able to get past his local door for overcrowding)

Appreciate I’m not the most frequent user of Northern anymore so my experience may not be typical, but from my own observations stock generally sticks to it’s booked work, gone are the days of the random unit generator. Pretty much every time I’ve expected a 158 that’s been what’s turned up, likewise for 156s.

In any case 170s and 195s are kept separate without too much issue, so I struggle to see why that couldn’t be done for one single route in the North East with 158s.

Definitely not disputing the urgent need for extra capacity on the Durham Coast. It’s been needed for a long time.

 

[TUC]

Competing more effectively with the X10 bus service for Middlesbrough-Newcastle has probably been a bigger priority than whether the service should go via Durham or Sunderland. At present the rail service takes longer than the bus, and is between £5-8 more expensive. Hard to see why anyone would use the train.

 

[Anvil1984]

Competing more effectively with the X10 bus service for Middlesbrough-Newcastle has probably been a bigger priority than whether the service should go via Durham or Sunderland. At present the rail service takes longer than the bus, and is between £5-8 more expensive. Hard to see why anyone would use the train.

How does the train take longer than the bus??

Northbound:

Bus: X10 leaves Middlesbrough at 1210 (so not cherry picking a rush hour bus) arrives Newcastle at 1352 (102 mins)
Train: 1232 Northern service arrives Newcastle 1355 so that’s nearly 20 mins quicker at 83 minutes

Southbound

Bus: X10 leaves Newcastle again at 1210 arrives Middlesbrough at 1354 (104 minutes(
Train: Northern service leaves Newcastle 1240 arrives Middlesbrough at 1400 (80 minutes)

Whilst admittedly not lightning fast you definitely cannot say the bus is quicker and hasn’t been competitive time wise for months since the X9 and X10 routes were merged

 

[IanXC]

Even though the North East has 158s you’d have to time it for a 156 as there’s no way you could guarantee 158 usage (same as the Morpeths and evening Chathill run having to be timed for 156s for the same reason)

On that basis every path for a particular operator should be timed for its lowest speed stock. Forget 125 on Great Western and Midland Mainline as theres a risk a 150 or 156 might turn up therefore nothing can be timed for more than 75mph.

 

[Anvil1984]

On that basis every path for a particular operator should be timed for its lowest speed stock. Forget 125 on Great Western and Midland Mainline as theres a risk a 150 or 156 might turn up therefore nothing can be timed for more than 75mph.

A little out of context as you don't see those units you've above regularly substitute for each other in the same way that units do within the Northern fleet, alongside the fact that at the companies you've mentioned the train crews tend to also be separated out between Intercity and Regional, Conductors and Train Managers etc etc (with the odd exception here and there)

Sarcastic comments apart its just something that Northern tends to do especially in this area. the Settle and Carlisle is still timed for 75 mph 150 - 156 despite being booked exclusively for 158s (since they binned the 153s they used to attach with) which can go 90mph for the 35 miles stretch south of Skipton I believe. In the North East itself they have plenty of Newcastle to Morpeth's and the backshift Chathill booked for a 158 but timed for the lower speed units. Same with 1N51 Middlesbrough to Newcastle via Darlington and ECML , booked 158, timed 156.

 

[sprinterguy]

Starting in July, there must be a good chance that Gateshead will chuck out some big no-heat 37s to work these services.

We can but dream. I'd be going out of my way to get some mileage on those services if that was the case!

In seriousness though, I'm pleasantly surprised to see this being introduced. I assumed that this was one of those proposals from the halcyon days of 'Northern Connect' that had been forever kicked into the long grass in the current climate of cost reductions and service cuts: As a 2-hourly service only requires the use of a single unit* I suppose the additional costs are marginal.


*EDIT: It is, of course, TWO units required.

 

[Anvil1984]

As a 2-hourly service only requires the use of a single unit I suppose the additional costs are marginal.

I think it”ll be two units with the layovers being about 45 minutes each end going off the timetable

 

[sprinterguy]

I think it”ll be two units with the layovers being about 45 minutes each end going off the timetable

Good point, my deductive reasoning is well off this morning.

 

[Snex]

Is there any point in these services being 'semi' fast? I respect the saving 15 minutes argument but there's plenty sizeable towns especially Peterlee (Horden), Billingham and Seaham with an absolutely pathetic service and now are going to have trains passing through. It's not as if the stations are locations in the middle of no-where. Changing the service from hourly to every 30 minutes is the sort of thing that would actually make them more useable unlike an hourly service which if the train happens to be 5 minutes before you finish work isn't exactly useable.

 

[Class142sbad]

The Durham coast line has been rubbish for a long time. For a line which connects some of the largest settlements in North East England it only has an hourly service which is terrible. It really should be every 30 minutes. I know and have been on the Durham coast line when its busy so the additional train could help with some overcrowding from Hartlepool but I think that we should be pushing for a half hourly service.

 

[william.martin]

What class of train will run this?

 

[Neptune]

I think it”ll be two units with the layovers being about 45 minutes each end going off the timetable

Correct. Both diagrams booked for a 156.

 

[adrock1976]

How does the train take longer than the bus??

Northbound:

Bus: X10 leaves Middlesbrough at 1210 (so not cherry picking a rush hour bus) arrives Newcastle at 1352 (102 mins)
Train: 1232 Northern service arrives Newcastle 1355 so that’s nearly 20 mins quicker at 83 minutes

Southbound

Bus: X10 leaves Newcastle again at 1210 arrives Middlesbrough at 1354 (104 minutes(
Train: Northern service leaves Newcastle 1240 arrives Middlesbrough at 1400 (80 minutes)

Whilst admittedly not lightning fast you definitely cannot say the bus is quicker and hasn’t been competitive time wise for months since the X9 and X10 routes were merged

Where exactly does the bus terminate in Newcastle?

I am unsure if it is Haymarket, but if that is indeed the case, then for a fair comparison you would have to include the interchange time with the Metro.

The only bus I am aware of that terminates at Central Station is the connecting bus for the DFDS ferries.

 

[dan4291]

Where exactly does the bus terminate in Newcastle?

I am unsure if it is Haymarket, but if that is indeed the case, then for a fair comparison you would have to include the interchange time with the Metro.

The only bus I am aware of that terminates at Central Station is the connecting bus for the DFDS ferries.

The X10 terminates at Eldon Square bus station.