New Northern Express service between Newcastle and Middlesbrough - speculation and ideas.

[Anvil1984]

Where exactly does the bus terminate in Newcastle?

I am unsure if it is Haymarket, but if that is indeed the case, then for a fair comparison you would have to include the interchange time with the Metro.

The only bus I am aware of that terminates at Central Station is the connecting bus for the DFDS ferries.

Eldon Square Bus Station is the terminus at the northern end of the City Centre. If travelling by train and you want to be in the city centre itself add at the most 10 minutes for a slow walker to walk to Monument (which will be quicker than the Metro connection) However if you are wanting the Pubs or Hotels which are predominately in the south end of the city centre (except for some fine establishments in the Haymarket area) then Central is closer so horses for courses so add the time to the bus for that.

Its nowhere as clear cut as "the rail service takes longer than the bus" as in most cases the rail journey will be quicker.

 

[sjm77]

These additional services are not showing in the NRT for May 2023 which is valid (apparently) until 29th September (Mondau to Friday). Has there been a delay in introduction? There is a refernece to the introduction on the Northern Website but they do not appear in Northerns timetables which are valid until December 2023

 

[ainsworth74]

These additional services are not showing in the NRT for May 2023 which is valid (apparently) until 29th September (Mondau to Friday). Has there been a delay in introduction? There is a refernece to the introduction on the Northern Website but they do not appear in Northerns timetables which are valid until December 2023

They've never been due to commence until platform 3 at Hartlepool has been commissioned which is due by July. If you look from July 3 onwards you'll find them in RTT but currently as "unadvertised" services. They will obviously become "advertised" once the commissioning date is confirmed. I'm not aware of any delays otherwise. For instance here is the 1016 from Middlesbrough to Newcastle on 3 July:

Realtime Trains | 1J02 1016 Middlesbrough to Newcastle | 03/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 1J02 1016 departure from Middlesbrough to Newcastle on 03/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[swt_passenger]

They've never been due to commence until platform 3 at Hartlepool has been commissioned which is due by July. If you look from July 3 onwards you'll find them in RTT but currently as "unadvertised" services. They will obviously become "advertised" once the commissioning date is confirmed. I'm not aware of any delays otherwise. For instance here is the 1016 from Middlesbrough to Newcastle on 3 July:

Realtime Trains | 1J02 1016 Middlesbrough to Newcastle | 03/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 1J02 1016 departure from Middlesbrough to Newcastle on 03/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I noticed on the RTT pages a majority of the 1Jxx services are booked via the King Edward and into P9. Presumably that’s because the more obvious platforms accessed over the High Level, (that don’t conflict with ECML through trains), are already fully utilised?

 

[30907]

I noticed on the RTT pages a majority of the 1Jxx services are booked via the King Edward and into P9. Presumably that’s because the more obvious platforms accessed over the High Level, (that don’t conflict with ECML through trains), are already fully utilised?

They seem to have a 45min layover which rather rules out the through platforms.

 

[swt_passenger]

They seem to have a 45min layover which rather rules out the through platforms.

Of course. Exactly why so many Northern services have been linked across Newcastle in recent years, although I’m sure it was said here a few months ago they were supposed to be reducing that? Amazing if Newcastle was to run out of platforms before they even add the Ashington service…

 

[Neptune]

Of course. Exactly why so many Northern services have been linked across Newcastle in recent years, although I’m sure it was said here a few months ago they were supposed to be reducing that? Amazing if Newcastle was to run out of platforms before they even add the Ashington service…

The Ashington services are already factored in ready to start next year. I can confirm that Central doesn’t ’run out of platforms’ as a result of this.

 

[DanNCL]

Of course. Exactly why so many Northern services have been linked across Newcastle in recent years, although I’m sure it was said here a few months ago they were supposed to be reducing that? Amazing if Newcastle was to run out of platforms before they even add the Ashington service…

Northern services were linked across Newcastle as at the time that was the best use of the platforms. Taking Summer 2018 as an example, P9 and P10 were occupied by TPE for most of the day, P11 by XC, P3 by VTEC/LNER terminators, and P2 and P4 for the through ECML traffic. So that only left P1 and the shorter through platforms (P5-P8) for Northern, hence the uplift in through services across Newcastle.

Fast forward five years and the picture has changed. The LNER terminators are no more, whilst TPE now has to use through platforms as the 802s don't fit in P9, as does XC for much of the day with their terminating 5, 8 and 9 car formations (only a 4 car fits in P11). P8 is also of no use now as nothing longer than a 142 fits. So that leaves P2 and P4 for the through ECML service, P3 and P5/P6 shared between XC and TPE terminators, and P1, P7 and P9-P12 spare, all bar one of those are bay platforms. The logical option is for Ashington to use P1 and almost everything else from Northern to use P9-P12, but that only works if the routes are split to all start/terminate at Newcastle.

 

[Anvil1984]

(only a 4 car fits in P11).

That is currently the case however if you venture to the Arena end of the platforms you will see a new signal laying just beyond the end of P11 waiting to be erected and commissioned . (the platform is big enough in itself it’s the current signal is the issue). This will in turn allow 5 car operation in P11, its just a case of when.

The flip side IIRC from the Network Rail document is that when that happens then P12 will probably out of use due to the overlap. In turn that MAY cause Northern issues as they’ll be down to effectively 2 bays (P9 and P10 with an intercity TOC in P11). P10 can’t be used for 158s either planned or ad hoc so it may be a juggling act although Neptune probably knows better

 

[3RDGEN]

The Ashington services are already factored in ready to start next year. I can confirm that Central doesn’t ’run out of platforms’ as a result of this.

Will the Ashington services be Newcastle only or linked up? As it's 2tph one could link to this new express Middlesborough service which I assume is planned to be hourly in the longer-term too.

P3 and P5/P6 shared between XC and TPE terminators,

From the article in April Modern Railways XC are starting to cut their Newcastle terminators back to York (2 from May), it's related to the new East Coast timetable with LNER running 3tph to Edinburgh, if or when that ever happens.

 

[Neptune]

Will the Ashington services be Newcastle only or linked up? As it's 2tph one could link to this new express Middlesborough service which I assume is planned to be hourly in the longer-term too.

Self contained Ashington to Newcastle.

 

[zwk500]

Will the Ashington services be Newcastle only or linked up? As it's 2tph one could link to this new express Middlesborough service which I assume is planned to be hourly in the longer-term too

New services wil ltend to start self-contained unless there is a driving operational reason not to, in case there are problems getting things ready or the line itself proves problematic.

 

[dan4291]

That is currently the case however if you venture to the Arena end of the platforms you will see a new signal laying just beyond the end of P11 waiting to be erected and commissioned . (the platform is big enough in itself it’s the current signal is the issue). This will in turn allow 5 car operation in P11, its just a case of when.

The flip side IIRC from the Network Rail document is that when that happens then P12 will probably out of use due to the overlap. In turn that MAY cause Northern issues as they’ll be down to effectively 2 bays (P9 and P10 with an intercity TOC in P11). P10 can’t be used for 158s either planned or ad hoc so it may be a juggling act although Neptune probably knows better

Platform 12 has already been taken out of operational use within the last few weeks. I did wonder why but your post makes sense as to why.

 

[DarloRich]

@ainsworth74 are these the new services "hig viz houchen" has been trumpeting on social media but aren't actually going to run for some time?

 

[ainsworth74]

@ainsworth74 are these the new services "hig viz houchen" has been trumpeting on social media but aren't actually going to run for some time?

Not sure! I've not seen any of his recent pronouncements.

 

[DarloRich]

Not sure! I've not seen any of his recent pronouncements.

they appear unrequested on my socials on a regular basis!

 

[ModernRailways]

Appreciate I’m not the most frequent user of Northern anymore so my experience may not be typical, but from my own observations stock generally sticks to it’s booked work, gone are the days of the random unit generator. Pretty much every time I’ve expected a 158 that’s been what’s turned up, likewise for 156s.

In any case 170s and 195s are kept separate without too much issue, so I struggle to see why that couldn’t be done for one single route in the North East with 158s.

Definitely not disputing the urgent need for extra capacity on the Durham Coast. It’s been needed for a long time.

Northern still has an element of random unit generator. The reason 170s/195s can be kept apart are because of the journeys they undertake and 'owning' depots. It's still quite common to see a 158 or 150 running in place of a 170. Likewise 195s will also often be subbed by 150 or 158s, and you may even see a 195 step in a for 150/158 if there has been disruption.
From what I recall all of the Leeds-Nottingham 'express' services are booked 195s, as an example, but it's not uncommon for this to be a 150 or 158. I feel for anyone who turns up at Leeds going through to Nottingham and sees a 150 sitting there.

 

[louis97]

From what I recall all of the Leeds-Nottingham 'express' services are booked 195s, as an example, but it's not uncommon for this to be a 150 or 158. I feel for anyone who turns up at Leeds going through to Nottingham and sees a 150 sitting there.

There is a 158 diagram on Leeds- Nottingham/Lincoln circuit, it covers the 0718 and 1717 from Nottingham to Leeds with a trip to Lincoln in between. This provides peak capacity as 2 car 158s have slightly more seats compared to a 2 car 195. Although I think this reverts back to a 195 in May.

 

[Neptune]

There is a 158 diagram on Leeds- Nottingham/Lincoln circuit, it covers the 0718 and 1717 from Nottingham to Leeds with a trip to Lincoln in between. This provides peak capacity as 2 car 158s have slightly more seats compared to a 2 car 195.

Back to a booked 195 come May. Same with the Leeds - York 158 diagram reverting to a 2 car 195.

 

[Llandudno]

Northern still has an element of random unit generator. The reason 170s/195s can be kept apart are because of the journeys they undertake and 'owning' depots. It's still quite common to see a 158 or 150 running in place of a 170. Likewise 195s will also often be subbed by 150 or 158s, and you may even see a 195 step in a for 150/158 if there has been disruption.
From what I recall all of the Leeds-Nottingham 'express' services are booked 195s, as an example, but it's not uncommon for this to be a 150 or 158. I feel for anyone who turns up at Leeds going through to Nottingham and sees a 150 sitting there.

Leeds to Nottingham on a 150 is nothing compared to TfWs regularly using 150s on Holyhead - Cardiff!

 

[Coolzac]

I think that the new services are a great idea, and as mentioned earlier, in the current rail climate is great to see.

Although I'm all in favour of new lines and stations, we also need to improve the standards of services in terms of frequency and capacity of many lines around the country. Efforts like this are fantastic.

 

[Halish Railway]

I think given the size of the settlements on the Durham Coast line, the only one worth skipping is Seaton Carew.

I'd say that a longer term aspiration (Next decade) should be to replace the current 156s/158s with new or displaced rolling stock with wide doors at 1/3 and 2/3 intervals (195s would be ideal) and have a half-hourly Durham Coast stopper, as well as linespeed increases where possible. Billingham to just before Hartlepool is fairly staight, although I'm not sure what factors would prevent the linespeed to be increased beyond 70mph.

I would also say that it may be worth having another go at using the Stillington route for a Middlesborough (and beyond) to Newcastle fast service, although that would require the junction where the line rejoins the ECML to be significantly remodelled and ideally 100mph rolling stock resourced.

 

[Class142sbad]

I think given the size of the settlements on the Durham Coast line, the only one worth skipping is Seaton Carew.

I'd say that a longer term aspiration (Next decade) should be to replace the current 156s/158s with new or displaced rolling stock with wide doors at 1/3 and 2/3 intervals (195s would be ideal) and have a half-hourly Durham Coast stopper, as well as linespeed increases where possible. Billingham to just before Hartlepool is fairly staight, although I'm not sure what factors would prevent the linespeed to be increased beyond 70mph.

I would also say that it may be worth having another go at using the Stillington route for a Middlesborough (and beyond) to Newcastle fast service, although that would require the junction where the line rejoins the ECML to be significantly remodelled and ideally 100mph rolling stock resourced.

I think this is a good argument. Really there should be 1/3 2/3 doors on the Durham coast line. Lets just hope the new express will resolve some of the overcrowding issues in the short term.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'd say that a longer term aspiration (Next decade) should be to replace the current 156s/158s with new or displaced rolling stock with wide doors at 1/3 and 2/3 intervals (195s would be ideal) and have a half-hourly Durham Coast stopper, as well as linespeed increases where possible. Billingham to just before Hartlepool is fairly staight, although I'm not sure what factors would prevent the linespeed to be increased beyond 70mph.

I'm not too fussed about the rolling stock but would agree that 2tph is the required frequency. I might be tempted to skip-stop a bit so some stations would only have an hourly service but the majority of stations should have 2tph for sure. Linespeed increases would be nice but I wonder if they're as high as they can go before requiring more intensive maintenance which would probably be hard to justify in terms of cost/benefit. Though if there are any pinch points it probably makes sense to target them first. Any 30s that could become 40s or 50s with a bit of tinkering.

I would also say that it may be worth having another go at using the Stillington route for a Middlesborough (and beyond) to Newcastle fast service, although that would require the junction where the line rejoins the ECML to be significantly remodelled and ideally 100mph rolling stock resourced.

Won't happen without unaffordable levels of work on the ECML. You'd probably need to put in a flying junction/diver under in the northbound direction to make it work reliably and there certainly isn't going to be the traffic for that.

 

[Anvil1984]

I'm not too fussed about the rolling stock but would agree that 2tph is the required frequency. I might be tempted to skip-stop a bit so some stations would only have an hourly service but the majority of stations should have 2tph for sure. Linespeed increases would be nice but I wonder if they're as high as they can go before requiring more intensive maintenance which would probably be hard to justify in terms of cost/benefit

To be honest without skip-stopping there’s not a lot that can be saved or as much as some of the posters would think. Probably 2 minutes on the whole journey if you’re lucky and that’s dependant on getting a good slot in front and not behind of a Metro on the Pelaw Junction - Sunderland Section or fitting in between trains at Bowesfield Junction.

South of Sunderland Tunnel the only 30s or below are:-

Hartlepool Station (v short 35s before hitting 20s for the curves)
Norton Curve (30, not going to be improved)
Stockton Station (30 random but more often than not you’re stopping there)
Bowesfield Curve (25 again it’s not going to improve)
Thornaby Station (20 Boro bound with 35s bordering the station both directions)
Boro station 25

North of Seaton Carew to Billingham is 70mph it could possibly be improved but from the moment a unit is able to new a new limit to the point it would have to brake for a station it would be less than a minute in my opinion

 

[Bartsimho]

Asking what might be a stupid question but with there not being an ECML path at 75mph as this is pathed are there paths available at speeds closer to the line speed?
I find it difficult to identify where paths might be available as some have freight paths listed which aren't then used and some just have time gaps?

 

[ainsworth74]

To be honest without skip-stopping there’s not a lot that can be saved or as much as some of the posters would think. Probably 2 minutes on the whole journey if you’re lucky and that’s dependant on getting a good slot in front and not behind of a Metro on the Pelaw Junction - Sunderland Section or fitting in between trains at Bowesfield Junction.

South of Sunderland Tunnel the only 30s or below are:-

Hartlepool Station (v short 35s before hitting 20s for the curves)
Norton Curve (30, not going to be improved)
Stockton Station (30 random but more often than not you’re stopping there)
Bowesfield Curve (25 again it’s not going to improve)
Thornaby Station (20 Boro bound with 35s bordering the station both directions)
Boro station 25

North of Seaton Carew to Billingham is 70mph it could possibly be improved but from the moment a unit is able to new a new limit to the point it would have to brake for a station it would be less than a minute in my opinion

Interesting thank you! My instinct was skip stopping would be the best bet to do something about journey times but nice to get some firmer information. As you say can't see any of those low limits getting increased just to the nature of where they are!

It sounds like the only, comparatively, easy way beyond skip stopping to shorten journey times might be a faster accelerating unit like a 195? Though I don't think 156/158s are particularly slow off the mark to be fair for a DMU?

 

[Anvil1984]

Interesting thank you! My instinct was skip stopping would be the best bet to do something about journey times but nice to get some firmer information. As you say can't see any of those low limits getting increased just to the nature of where they are!

It sounds like the only, comparatively, easy way beyond skip stopping to shorten journey times might be a faster accelerating unit like a 195? Though I don't think 156/158s are particularly slow off the mark to be fair for a DMU?

I wouldn't know about the comparison due to the obvious lack of Northern unit variety in the North East (being polite), definitely quicker off the mark and better braking than the 142s were. Other than what I listed above you've also got the 2 things on the infrastructure wise which add the most time.

The first is the 15 / 20 (depending on direction) curves from Park Lane, Gateshead to / from Newcastle, again the only improvement possible without a lot of cash and rebuilding would probably just make it 20 both ways (sadly you could get the Metro from Heworth which leaves pretty much same time as the Northern and makes 3 intermediate stops and get to Central at the same time as the Northern which is non-stop).
The second would be the 20 mph in and out of Sunderland Tunnels. You can't go any quicker southbound due to the TPWS overspeed protecting the mid platform signal (which is usually red) being set at 10 mph, the speed increases in the middle of the two South tunnels, Northbound its a longer 20 mph all of the way through the south tunnels but you don't want it being much faster as there's a signal being located in the middle which protects the junction where you have the Metros to / from South Hylton crossing.

There's probably a very slight time reduction on southbound services with the new platform at Hartlepool coming into use (no longer 15 over the points at the Newcastle end and can get onto the 35 at the Seaton Carew end earlier).

 

[Northumbriana]

Would an ECML service be possible with 100 mph trains? Durham is an important destination and linking it to Middlesbrough and Hartlepool would be useful.

 

[Halish Railway]

Would an ECML service be possible with 100 mph trains? Durham is an important destination and linking it to Middlesbrough and Hartlepool would be useful.

Possibly if the turnout onto the Stillington route was significantly sped up with flashing yellow controlled approach signals (I.e. at least 50mph) and with a two-track turnout. With regards to pathing on the ECML, I'd imagine that the time and pathing penalty for long distance trains calling at Northallerton would be much more severe than an hourly 100mph Northern service calling at Chester-le-Street and Durham before diverging onto the Stillington route

I think any new Northern service through Durham would be just an hourly service starting at Newcastle (not through running beyond Newcastle as Arriva Northern wanted to as part of the Northern Connect scheme down to Carlisle), calling at Chester-le-Street, Durham, Ferryhill (Were a new station to open on the Stillington lines as has been suggested), Stockton, Thornaby and Middlesborough (and maybe beyond). I don't think there'd be enough capacity for a Newcastle-Durham-Hartlepool service as well. I'd suggest that a new Durham Coast service to either Darlington or York (with 100mph DMUs) would be more urgent than an additional Hartlepool to Newcastle via Durham service.