New platforms for Liverpool Lime Street

[YorkshireBear]

Is this the same exchange that they want to reopen for HS2? By they i mean local campaigners nothing actually planned.

 

[Gareth]

Exchange was on the site surrounded by Tithebarn Street, Bixteth Street and Pall Mall. It was the southern terminus of what is now the Northern Line services towards Southport, Ormskirk & Kirkby. When they created the underground, these services were diverted into Moorfields and then onto Liverpool Central.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

MerseyTravel have also held talks with TPE and Virgin on new services from Liverpool to Scotland from Jan 2015 once the electrification and new track and platforms at Roby & Huyton have been completed allowing high speed express trains to pass local commuter trains.

This suggests a positive outcome from the talks. I doubt that very much.
TP and VT are in no position to offer anything new unless the DfT sanctions it, and they don't look like doing anything prior to franchise renewal all round.
There is no stock...
I think we might have to wait till TP electrification is complete for any major change.

 

[507 001]

I am pretty certain that there was a morning working from Edinburgh to Liverpool using a 158 which then formed another XC service to Portsmouth. The 1700 service from Liverpool to Edinburgh utilised an inbound 158 from the south coast arriving late afternoon.yMy memory isn't the greatest so if anyone can confirm or correct this please do. There were a few Virgin XC services including Scotland to Manchester that used class 158 dmu.

They did use 158's, although up to about 1994 or 1995 they were loco-hauled, often with a Res liveried 47 between Liverpool and Preston (it also stopped at St Helens Central), then electric hauled from Preston onwards.

I can remember seeing voyagers in p7 at lime street with Edinburgh on the front fairly regularly so it wasn't just 158s they used.

I really can't see this siding being re-instated, partially because, as already mentioned, the roof pillars are in the way and also because anything that uses P7 blocks the entrance to it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Exchange was on the site surrounded by Tithebarn Street, Bixteth Street and Pall Mall. It was the southern terminus of what is now the Northern Line services towards Southport, Ormskirk & Kirkby.

I, being somewhat of an afficionado of the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway, remember this as being a large terminal railway station of that same company in the good city of Liverpool and one that I have used many times in my younger days prior to the official 1968 date of "the end of steam".

 

[Green Lane]

I'm happy to say that at least the grand frontage of Liverpool Exchange railway station on Tithebarn Street has survived, although now it's in use as an office building "Mercury Court". Photo taken on 6th April 2013:-

 

[8A Rail]

Can you not share this source, because I'm rather sceptical? Having read this thread earlier, I went and took a good look at this siding this evening, assuming that '6A' is the one immediately adjacent to Platform 7. It just ain't happening. At least, not without large scale engineering works. There are pillars at regular intervals with virtually no clearance between them and the platform edge. It isn't practical. Removing the columns would be difficult because they prop up both of the shed rooves.

See my entry, No6 in this thread which in very simple terms is what I was suggesting. If there is a requirement for additional platform, there would be some earthworks have to take place to implement it whether it is the old platform 7A (in between existing platform 7 & 8), a new platform 10 or platform 0 (just long enough for 3 car unit I think). In order to expand and create the space, one of the building inside the train roof would need to be demolish (ie old Royal Mail or new Virgin Customer Service Ctr). I will wait until I see definite plans and also see if it really happens!

 

[DJH1971]

I can remember seeing voyagers in p7 at lime street with Edinburgh on the front fairly regularly so it wasn't just 158s they used.

I really can't see this siding being re-instated, partially because, as already mentioned, the roof pillars are in the way and also because anything that uses P7 blocks the entrance to it.

Yeah, there were Voyagers working from Liverpool for a time which were used for services to Reading and Plymouth (replacing 47 and 86 loco-hauled trains), but we're dropped for the 2002 summer timetable.

The fact that Merseytravel are in talks with TPE and XC over services from Liverpool says something.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm happy to say that at least the grand frontage of Liverpool Exchange railway station on Tithebarn Street has survived, although now it's in use as an office building "Mercury Court". Photo taken on 6th April 2013:-

It still has a facade that adds a great deal of character to the area. Thank you for the visual image submitted which many forum members would never previously have seen.

I note that the picture was taken this year on my 68th birthday..

 

[Green Lane]

It still has a facade that adds a great deal of character to the area. Thank you for the visual image submitted which many forum members would never previously have seen.

Yes it certainly is a grand building, and back around ten years ago I used to go past it many evenings on my way home from work on the old 441 (Liverpool-Woodchurch) bus which used to go down Titherbarn Street (and then get stuck at the lights at Great Crosshall Street/Byrom Street for ages!), before turning right twice to get into the Birkenhead tunnel. Sadly, I don't think any cross-river buses go down that way any more, they all go down Victoria Street now instead.

I note that the picture was taken this year on my 68th birthday..

Very belated happy birthday for six months ago! I remember it was a lovely sunny Saturday spring morning although can't remember exactly where I was off to that morning that would have taken me past the former station! Probably I was on my to see some ship in at the cruise terminal.

 

[pablo]

I used to work opposite in the early sixties. 14 Tithebarn Street. The facade you see is what used to be the Exchange Hotel. The station was behind and through a pair of 'tunnels' which don't appear to be apparent in the photo. It had no frontage itself. The site is built on these days and not available for HS2, or any other fanciful ideas.

Was quite a stuffy hotel in those days, so it was surprising to see the Rolling Stones staying there for a week in 1961 or '62. Only had two or three groupies hanging around outside! Their fame came later.

 

[Dunc108]

I used to work opposite in the early sixties. 14 Tithebarn Street. The facade you see is what used to be the Exchange Hotel. The station was behind and through a pair of 'tunnels' which don't appear to be apparent in the photo. It had no frontage itself. The site is built on these days and not available for HS2, or any other fanciful ideas.

Was quite a stuffy hotel in those days, so it was surprising to see the Rolling Stones staying there for a week in 1961 or '62. Only had two or three groupies hanging around outside! Their fame came later.

I imagine BR sold off the land since closure which is why it will never see rail use again sadly. I'd imagine HS2 might make more sense at Edge Hill whilst still offering direct connection/interchange to main line services. Funnily, it was originally envisaged for the Kirkby Branch to remain diesel operated & turnback facilities were installed at the rebuilt Sandhills for this purpose & they are still in situ today. Still, it makes for a useful addon if ever needed.

I read the Exchange Hotel was built as competition to the LNWR's North Western Hotel at Lime St Station, although the Exchange Hotel was more successful as it was one of the first offering full en-suite facilities.

When Exchange was demolished, the concourse was gutted right upto the facade brickwork & held up with only a skeleton of scaffolding.

 

[northofthesand]

Direct Liverpool to Scotland services survived until 2003, I think, when Virgin XC withdrew from Liverpool completely.

When XC withdrew and if TPE were running trains at that time and showed no interest in the service,would Scotrail have been able to change one of it's Scotland-Newcastle services to a Scotland-Liverpool one ?


Having travelled the Preston-Liverpool Lime Street route on many occasion's on the dreaded 'Pacer' I could see plenty of people showing interest in the town's on the Preston-Liverpool route in such a service

Would this of been against the rules due to some franchise at the time ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When XC withdrew and if TPE were running trains at that time and showed no interest in the service,would Scotrail have been able to change one of it's Scotland-Newcastle services to a Scotland-Liverpool one ?
Would this of been against the rules due to some franchise at the time ?

Nothing much to do with TP/XC/VT.
The SRA decided to delete Liverpool from the XC map, partly because of the lack of stock (like Blackpool, Shrewsbury etc).
Basically the DfT will not pay for extra Liverpool services.
The next franchise specs (2015 onwards) might improve things, especially if new electric fleets become available - but none are on order apart from TP's 10x350s for Manchester-Scotland.
The only extra service in prospect is the TP Liverpool-Newcastle via Man Vic next year.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Just as a thought, the existing platform 6 is very narrow particularly near the buffer stops. Even if the train arrives and stops further down the platform, it is often difficult for alighting passengers and waiting passengers on the platform due to pass each other, especially when they are carrying luggage. This obviously has implications for the turn round times let alone H&S, so perhaps the plan is to remove some of the clutter between platform 6 and the siding adjacent to platform 7 allowing greater use of platform 6 space. As others have also pointed out the station pillars are very close to the platform edge on the siding as think link below shows,

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Liverpool_Lime_Street,_Platform_7.jpg

as well as the entrance is blocked most of the time by Virgins Pendolino's. I seem to recall reading somewhere that NR want to make changes to the station throat but this would only be linked to the re-signalling of the station that will only take place in a few years time. Assuming this does happen perhaps then the siding could be restored to full operation by moving the London trains to platforms 8 & 9 then modifying the end of platform 6 to allow direct access to the station throat and using the new platform with platform 7 for EM & LM trains. This would allow all the present Northern trains to be concentrated on the existing platforms 1 to 6 and reduce the number of conflicting movements at the station throat.

 

[Ships]

Lime street is getting remodelled in 2016 (I think), I've not seen the detail so can't comment of any reintroduction of p6

 

[D1009]

Am I right in recalling that pre electrification there was a crossover near the buffer stops of platform 7 which enabled the siding to be used for locomotive run round purposes? However I think most trains using platform 7 were too long for this to be much use.

 

[L+Y]

I imagine BR sold off the land since closure which is why it will never see rail use again sadly.

I don't see why you couldn't restore a station of some sort at Exchange, if the will were there to do so. The land's hardly been built over entirely, the majority of the site is a car park. You could easily fit in a basic terminus of some sort.

I can't see this actually happening, mind you, and certainly not for HS2. Perhaps it might be plausible if HS2-related capacity demands mean more space is needed in Lime Street, and then Blackpool and Wigan trains could theoretically be routed into a restored Exchange station, but that'd be a very dramatic solution to the problem.

Operationally, I'd imagine that a restoration of Central High Level station would be rather more useful, but I think a restoration there would be considerably more expensive and disruptive than it would be at Exchange. A restored Liverpool Central could happily accommodate everything coming off the old CLC lines, plus perhaps an expanded Merseyrail service. But, again, it's not going to happen, sadly.

Incidentally, on the subject of Liverpool-Scotland trains, in the 1969-70 timetable, expresses took a smidgeon over half an hour to run from Liverpool to Preston: by this point, they were running nonstop northbound, but continuing to halt at Ormskirk (and sometimes Burscough Junction) southbound. Even the Saturdays-only 2F67 most-stations DMU managed the journey from Preston to Liverpool in a very creditable 61 minutes, and that's accommodating the detour via Lostock Hall!

Of course, the direct former L&Y mainline from Liverpool to further north was severed in 1970, so we'll never know what more modern traction could've done on it.

 

[Bevan Price]

Am I right in recalling that pre electrification there was a crossover near the buffer stops of platform 7 which enabled the siding to be used for locomotive run round purposes? However I think most trains using platform 7 were too long for this to be much use.

The John Swift signalling plans (Signalling Record Society publication) shows no crossover at the buffer stop end between Platform 7 and "Siding E" (as it was then known). Locos remained at the buffer stops until either :
The stock was used for the next departure, or,
The stock was taken to Edge Hill carriage sidings (or elsewhere) by another loco - the incoming loco sometimes remaining attached, and banking the e.c.s. to Edge Hill.

In some of the shorter platforms, an incoming loco would propel the e.c.s. a short distance out of the station, then uncouple, and run into a siding. The e.c.s. would then use gravity to return to the platform, with the guard controlling the brakes. I cannot imagine today's safety regime allowing such a practice....

The unnumbered bay platform adjacent to platform 1 was used very rarely for passenger departures. I only remember using it once, with a loco & 2 coach push-pull set on a Liverpool - St. Helens local. I think they would need to relocate the train crew building, etc., if they wanted to reinstate such a facility. The easiest (but still expensive) way to create a new platform might be to close & excavate the roadway next to Platform 9, and reconstruct the former Platform 10.

 

[Wavertreelad]

The DFT economic case for HS2 anticipates 2 tph from London to Liverpool, initially via Runcorn and Warrington Bank Quay (1 tph each) under phase 1 moving to 2 tph via Runcorn only under phase 2 using compatible stock so unless their is a drastic rethink I think it reasonable to take it Lime Street will be terminus station in Liverpool.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The DFT economic case for HS2 anticipates 2 tph from London to Liverpool, initially via Runcorn and Warrington Bank Quay (1 tph each) under phase 1 moving to 2 tph via Runcorn only under phase 2 using compatible stock so unless their is a drastic rethink I think it reasonable to take it Lime Street will be terminus station in Liverpool.

Similar in construction to that envisaged at Manchester Piccadilly ?

 

[rebmcr]

Similar in construction to that envisaged at Manchester Piccadilly ?

I don't think so, he mentioned Compatible stock and there's not really room for anything extra in Lime Street so I imagine they'll be using existing platforms.

 

[Wavertreelad]

HS2 stock will be built to Continental standards which I suspect would be too large to travel through the tunnels to reach Lime Street let alone greater clearances along the existing route via Runcorn. Unless a brand new HS2 branch was built to Liverpool which seems very unlikely as the cost would prohibitive so the use of compatible HS2 stock is the only answer. Interestingly, Merseytravel is today talking about electrifying the CLC route to Manchester with interested parties as part of the plans to spend up to 400 million on new stock for the Merseyrail system due to enter service in 2019. Electrification of the CLC route is one of those infill projects that could follow the Chat Moss scheme and would allow additional services along the route creating further platform capacity issues at Lime Street.

 

[Dunc108]

I don't see why you couldn't restore a station of some sort at Exchange, if the will were there to do so. The land's hardly been built over entirely, the majority of the site is a car park. You could easily fit in a basic terminus of some sort.

I can't see this actually happening, mind you, and certainly not for HS2. Perhaps it might be plausible if HS2-related capacity demands mean more space is needed in Lime Street, and then Blackpool and Wigan trains could theoretically be routed into a restored Exchange station, but that'd be a very dramatic solution to the problem.

Operationally, I'd imagine that a restoration of Central High Level station would be rather more useful, but I think a restoration there would be considerably more expensive and disruptive than it would be at Exchange. A restored Liverpool Central could happily accommodate everything coming off the old CLC lines, plus perhaps an expanded Merseyrail service. But, again, it's not going to happen, sadly.

Incidentally, on the subject of Liverpool-Scotland trains, in the 1969-70 timetable, expresses took a smidgeon over half an hour to run from Liverpool to Preston: by this point, they were running nonstop northbound, but continuing to halt at Ormskirk (and sometimes Burscough Junction) southbound. Even the Saturdays-only 2F67 most-stations DMU managed the journey from Preston to Liverpool in a very creditable 61 minutes, and that's accommodating the detour via Lostock Hall!

Of course, the direct former L&Y mainline from Liverpool to further north was severed in 1970, so we'll never know what more modern traction could've done on it.

Who knows, maybe if they extended Merseyrail Electrification to Preston station (RES Platform) it would create direct journey/connectional opportunities between Preston & Liverpool Central - and potentially further South to Liverpool South Parkway (for Liverpool Airport connections) and offer a far better alternative than the current slower service from Blackpool via Wigan & St Helens Central, not to mention a reversal at Lime St..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

HS2 stock will be built to Continental standards which I suspect would be too large to travel through the tunnels to reach Lime Street let alone greater clearances along the existing route via Runcorn. Unless a brand new HS2 branch was built to Liverpool which seems very unlikely as the cost would prohibitive so the use of compatible HS2 stock is the only answer. Interestingly, Merseytravel is today talking about electrifying the CLC route to Manchester with interested parties as part of the plans to spend up to 400 million on new stock for the Merseyrail system due to enter service in 2019. Electrification of the CLC route is one of those infill projects that could follow the Chat Moss scheme and would allow additional services along the route creating further platform capacity issues at Lime Street.

Well, seeing as though Liverpool as a destination is currently low on even existing priority lists in some areas (like Cross Country & no Scotland service) as far as Liverpool & HS2 are concerned, I don't expect anything to happen for many years, and Manchester will obviously take priority as usual. I would of course rejoice to be proved wrong.

 

[Eagle]

HS2 stock will be built to Continental standards which I suspect would be too large to travel through the tunnels to reach Lime Street let alone greater clearances along the existing route via Runcorn.

No it won't, HS2 stock will be "classic-compatible". That means it'll be built to fit the loading gauge of the classic routes as well as HS2.

 

[rebmcr]

No it won't, HS2 stock will be "classic-compatible". That means it'll be built to fit the loading gauge of the classic routes as well as HS2.

Yes, also there will be additional non-compatible stock "trapped" on the high speed parts.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Interestingly, Merseytravel is today talking about electrifying the CLC route to Manchester with interested parties as part of the plans to spend up to 400 million on new stock for the Merseyrail system due to enter service in 2019. Electrification of the CLC route is one of those infill projects that could follow the Chat Moss scheme and would allow additional services along the route creating further platform capacity issues at Lime Street.

Not if they are sent via Liverpool Central.
Warrington Central-Southport would make a lot of sense.
Or maybe Ormskirk and use the current paths which terminate at Central.

 

[Gareth]

Yes, I like the idea of a Warrington Central-Southport Merseyrail service. It'd probably be OHLE and then switch at Hunts Cross or Liverpool South Parkway. The big problem would be what to do with the orphaned stations of West Allerton and Mossley Hill.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Yes, also there will be additional non-compatible stock "trapped" on the high speed parts.

Yes sorry the wording of my original post should have made it clearer that only classic compatible HS2 sets will call at Liverpool.

CLC electrification, when it eventually goes ahead, will almost certainly be all the way to Manchester as well as the Airport. Like all future Merseyrail extensions it will also be OH as at sometime within the lifespan of the new fleet the existing third rail infrastructure will become life expired. Whilst the Merseyrail fleet is unlikely to travel beyond the M6, it would enable the route to be used by Manchester Airport trains which under present plans could be routed on the CLC, albeit still under diesel power when the Chat Moss is fully commissioned. As Northern operate the diesel routes on Merseyside on behalf of Merseytravel, it is conceivable that responsibility for the stopping services from Lime Street probably as far as Warrington could be switched to Merseyrail. All other trains would then be semi fasts calling just at Liverpool South Parkway, Warrington and beyond.

 

[lfc2014uk]

According to my source Craig Harrop - Northern Rail Merseyside Area Manager

Liverpool lime St P6 will be straightened carried out by NR

New track layout on approach to P1-3 allowing more trains to use them

P6A to be reinstated as a long distance platform 2015

New Northern Rail: Liverpool - York service via Man Victoria, Halifax & Bradford Line in 2015 using 158's 4 car

Merseyrail fleet 507/508 to be refurbished again in 2014 and new rollng stock in 2019.

Finally a new temporary railway station to be built at Deeside industrial estate on the Wrexham - Bidston line connecting businesses staff and commuters to te area