New platforms for Liverpool Lime Street

[gottago]

Probably a very stupid comment but would it be possible for trains to stop at the unused platform by 7 in such a way that all the doors miss those large pillars?

And does anyone know why the taxi rank on the ticket office of the station closed years ago? It's now just a big dark space and taxis have to clog up that side street instead.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Probably a very stupid comment but would it be possible for trains to stop at the unused platform by 7 in such a way that all the doors miss those large pillars?

I would have thought very unlikely going by the images in this video.

http://youtu.be/DhM49tgH_3s

 

[HSTEd]

Of course, if you wanted a HS2 Captive-gauge line into Liverpool it would probably not go via Runcorn or end at Lime Street.

It would likely come from Wigan and run into a site near the old Exchange station.

 

[driver_m]

Probably a very stupid comment but would it be possible for trains to stop at the unused platform by 7 in such a way that all the doors miss those large pillars?

And does anyone know why the taxi rank on the ticket office of the station closed years ago? It's now just a big dark space and taxis have to clog up that side street instead.

No, its unsafe as there is very little gap between those pillars and the platform edge. A moving train & unaware passenger stood in that small gap is a disaster waiting to happen. so H&S just wouldn't consider it. Like someone has said, its being resignalled in 3 years so it would make sense to alter the platforms and track alignment at that time, seeing as the current refurb only involves platforms 1-5 that may be the plan anyway.

 

[8A Rail]

Check out this too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Lime_Street_railway_station under the Mainline heading

"July 2013 - Liverpool Lime Station platforms 1-5 are being fully refurbished by network rail. Platform 6 will be eventually straightened (as it is curved at present between 2013/14.
The old platform 6A which is located next to platform 7 and is only used as a siding will become the new platform 7 in 2014. Existing platforms 7/8/9 will become new platforms 8/9/10, this will allow new long distance services to start and terminate at lime street to Scotland and London starting in 2015 from the new platform 8 & 9 (Virgin Trains)."

Bearing in mind, anyone can add information to this then it don't mean its true, fact or fiction.

Also have a look at this link and the images on it - yes it is model form but based on late 1940's layout of the station - especially look at Platforms 0 & 1 and obviously Platform's 6 (6a) & 7, along with the relevent track layout.
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/33141-lime-street-station/page-15 it proves it is possible but from information gained so far, Platform 6a was never used for passengers due to the station (Pillar) restrictions.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Liverpool Lime Street railway station suffers from the land confinements within the immediate area and does not have much in the way of options in the utilisation of the space afforded by the site. It does has the impressive frontage and the iconic St Georges Hall opposite to give the best impression of the existing land availability.

Incidentally, what is the gradient from the tunnels nearest to the station that runs downwards into the station area itself?

 

[8A Rail]

Incidentally, what is the gradient from the tunnels nearest to the station that runs downwards into the station area itself?

From Station is as follows, 1 in 502, 1 in 83, 1 in 93 (for about a mile) then 1 in 136 at Edge Hill Station then down 1 in 1642 to Olive Mount Junction. HTH.

 

[Wavertreelad]

This is an extract from Network Rail Network Rail Specification 2012 London North Western.
Quote
Merseyside
Liverpool South Parkway turnback facility
To provide the capacity for growth into Liverpool Central, the draft Merseyside Long Term Rail Planning Strategy has recommended provision of a new turnback facility south of Liverpool South Parkway. This is currently a candidate scheme for CP5 and forms the second phase of infrastructure interventions outlined by the Strategy.

Liverpool Lime Street capability improvements
Work is underway to align and develop opportunities that may arise from signalling,
track and switch and crossing (S&C) renewals planned in 2016. Proposals that are being
developed include additional and longer platforms, and work to increase operational
functionality to create greater capacity for longer trains and increased service frequencies.
Merseyside resignalling

Resignalling works are planned at Allerton and Speke in 2016. These schemes will closely align with the larger programme of works in the North West. As part of the development of these resignalling schemes, consideration is being given to possible enhancements that could be delivered as part of the renewals projects, subject to business case and availability of funding.
Unquote.

As these projects are raised in both CP4 and CP5 it is not perhaps unreasonable to assume that some work could start in the near future.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This is from the NR CP5 submission (Jan 2013):

Liverpool South Parkway turnback
The proposed turn back at Liverpool South Parkway will allow an increase in frequency of service to 18-20 trains per hour through Liverpool Central. The increase in through services will also reduce crowding of the island platforms at Liverpool Central.
Liverpool Lime Street capacity enhancements
It is proposed that capacity enhancements will be required in CP5 to support anticipated passenger growth and plans for additional and longer trains in the North West. Development work is focused on platform numbers and lengths, capacity at the station throat and congestion on its approaches. Platform lengthening, construction of new platforms and remodelling of the station throat layout are potential solutions that are being investigated.

The Liverpool South Parkway turnback is on the Merseyrail DC lines, not the Lime St ones.
While infrastructure improvements at Lime St might be being planned (CP5 funding not yet agreed), I don't believe the Wiki remarks about new VT Scotland services by 2015.

Edit: Also from the CP5 plan, all the electro-mechanical signal boxes in the area (ie not Edge Hill or Ditton, or the DC lines) are to be resignalled in CP5 with control moved to Manchester ROC.
This includes Lime St, Allerton, Speke, Halton Jn, Huyton and St Helens.

 

[lfc2014uk]

Probably a very stupid comment but would it be possible for trains to stop at the unused platform by 7 in such a way that all the doors miss those large pillars?

And does anyone know why the taxi rank on the ticket office of the station closed years ago? It's now just a big dark space and taxis have to clog up that side street instead.

When 7/7 happened the station manager at the time decided that the car park area at lime st by the ticket office would be closed to all vehicles except police and Network Rail/contractors.

I know what u mean its a nightmare down the side of lime st esp. when the theatre is on next door.

 

[gottago]

When 7/7 happened the station manager at the time decided that the car park area at lime st by the ticket office would be closed to all vehicles except police and Network Rail/contractors.

I know what u mean its a nightmare down the side of lime st esp. when the theatre is on next door.

Certainly seems daft considering you can still drive straight into the car park one floor above as well as into the station itself via the taxi rank and car park on the others side of the shed.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Certainly seems daft considering you can still drive straight into the car park one floor above as well as into the station itself via the taxi rank and car park on the others side of the shed.

Almost as bad as the decision to reverse the traffic flow in Skelhorne Street on the opposite side of station which now results in some passengers boarding buses and coaches on the road side when they park up outside the station because of the lack of space within.

 

[Dunc108]

Of course, if you wanted a HS2 Captive-gauge line into Liverpool it would probably not go via Runcorn or end at Lime Street.

It would likely come from Wigan and run into a site near the old Exchange station.

Yes agree, Lime St, whilst impressive, just doesnt look HS2 ready, and as mentioned elsewhere, capacity & land constraints pose real issues. Exchange could have had potential, it had straight, express length platforms & whilst the neighbouring buildings maybe aren't as striking as at Lime St, it was nearer the now ever prospering Waterfront. Saying that though, theres still very busy series of junctions to navigate at Sandhills & Walton Junction intensively used by Kirkby, Southport & Ormskirk EMUs on their 15min frequencies... even the Northern Line would have its problems! Theres the Liverpool Loop via West Derby although i'm not sure if its even still in railway ownership?

 

[eps200]

Only way Lime street could ever conceivably have captives is if the local services got tunnelled from edge hill to central as was planned in the early days of merseyrail, thus freeing up two tracks and the left set of platforms .

 

[Wavertreelad]

Yes agree, Lime St, whilst impressive, just doesnt look HS2 ready, and as mentioned elsewhere, capacity & land constraints pose real issues. Exchange could have had potential, it had straight, express length platforms & whilst the neighbouring buildings maybe aren't as striking as at Lime St, it was nearer the now ever prospering Waterfront. Saying that though, theres still very busy series of junctions to navigate at Sandhills & Walton Junction intensively used by Kirkby, Southport & Ormskirk EMUs on their 15min frequencies... even the Northern Line would have its problems! Theres the Liverpool Loop via West Derby although i'm not sure if its even still in railway ownership?

The Waterloo tunnel still runs from Edge Hill to a point near Wapping Dock (see link http://localwiki.net/liverpool/Liverpool's_Historic_Rail_Tunnels) which is adjacent to the proposed Liverpool Waters development to be built by the Peel Group who own the Port of Liverpool. This could offer a solution to the station issue and form the hub of the development in the area. Adjacent to the River and a little over a mile from the City centre and Pier Head the location could be almost perfect, but would require investment in local transport infrastructure some of which would be required for the Liverpool Waters scheme in any event. The problem of clearance on the rest of the route to Liverpool would still apply for HS2 stock contemplated as well as potential of conflicting movements at Edge Hill which might require some serious civil engineering and it avoids the problems of the Northern Line.

The Liverpool Loop is probably a no no as some of the path has been built on and whilst not impossible, and the rest is now a pathway and you still have the station problem and extra journey time associated with approaching from the north of the city.

On the HS2 discussion thread I had recently posted the following press release issued by Peel Ports who are building the riverside container terminal at Liverpool.

http://www.liverpool2.com/timeline/86-liverpool2-and-hs2

Whilst this was largely made for the freight industry, it is nevertheless linked to passenger services.

 

[Bevan Price]

According to my source Craig Harrop - Northern Rail Merseyside Area Manager

New Northern Rail: Liverpool - York service via Man Victoria, Halifax & Bradford Line in 2015 using 158's 4 car
a

Seems a strange idea - newly electrified line between Liverpool & Manchester, but trains worked by dmus. And will there be enough paths for such a service in addition to all the other services expected to be operating between Parkside & Manchester ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Seems a strange idea - newly electrified line between Liverpool & Manchester, but trains worked by dmus. And will there be enough paths for such a service in addition to all the other services expected to be operating between Parkside & Manchester ?

Unless "Liverpool" = Kirkby?

 

[8A Rail]

Seems a strange idea - newly electrified line between Liverpool & Manchester, but trains worked by dmus. And will there be enough paths for such a service in addition to all the other services expected to be operating between Parkside & Manchester ?

Dont forget the route across the Pennines is not electrified (yet) so no other way of doing such a service hey unless you wish for people to change at Manchester? Come to think of it, wont it be possible to travel to/from Victoria via the CLC route anyway, which seems to be logical route given the fact that First T/P services are going over to the L&M line and probably one of the reasons for introducing the service.

Unless "Liverpool" = Kirkby?

Liverpool is not Kirkby nor vice versa. So take Liverpool as Lime St Station. Cant imagine people from York, Bradford, Halifax etc wanting to change at Kirkby and onward to Liverpool, let alone visiting Kirkby itself!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's no direct route between the CLC and Victoria.

 

[rebmcr]

Captive services could never use Lime Street, the platform length required is 400m, here is an image of how far up the tunnel that would reach, on a 1:93 gradient!

Even Compatibles require 200m, which would almost fill up P8 and poke out of the train shed.

 

[Eagle]

Even Compatibles require 200m, which would almost fill up P8 and poke out of the train shed.

200 metres is shorter than a 390/0 (let alone a 390/1). And those seem to fit fine.

 

[pablo]

... and so Lime Street has to settle for 390s and Classic Compatibles for evermore.

Trouble with Lime Street is that you have to go into town to go out again. Case for an out-of-town HS2 terminal ....oh ... sometime in the next century?

 

[joeykins82]

Well, the CC sets haven't been designed yet; it's quite possible that they'll be very nice trains! Just look at the high attention to detail in the IEP/SET specification for how the CC sets are likely to be configured.

 

[HSTEd]

Liverpool Exchange requires the least track of any captive set capable solution.

Since you just run directly to Wigan out of the North of Liverpool, no bridge over the Mersey or anything.

 

[8A Rail]

There's no direct route between the CLC and Victoria.

Yes the link is the other way around South to North heading to Bolton. Sorry.

 

[rebmcr]

Liverpool Exchange requires the least track of any captive set capable solution.

Since you just run directly to Wigan out of the North of Liverpool, no bridge over the Mersey or anything.

400m doesn't quite fit even without concourse & approach trackwork. Plus you'd have to do a lot of gauge work and probably discontinue commuter service from the north.

I think John Lennon Airport would be a much better Captive terminus, with a new diversion of the Northern Line from Liverpool South Parkway to the airport (leaving Hunts Cross to be served by the City Line only).

 

[HowardGWR]

400m doesn't quite fit even without concourse & approach trackwork. Plus you'd have to do a lot of gauge work and probably discontinue commuter service from the north.

Why cannot Leeds Street be crossed?

 

[HSTEd]

400m doesn't quite fit even without concourse & approach trackwork. Plus you'd have to do a lot of gauge work and probably discontinue commuter service from the north.

I think John Lennon Airport would be a much better Captive terminus, with a new diversion of the Northern Line from Liverpool South Parkway to the airport (leaving Hunts Cross to be served by the City Line only).

Two, maybe 3 platforms is all that you need to handle the number of trains you need. A concourse could be provided on a deck raised over the end of the platforms.
Additionally the approach could be only single track for a handful of kilometres, with trains being flighted if necessary.
That should enable it to bed squezed iinto the current alignment till it gets into open country.

 

[pablo]

True, the unused infrastucture is there for some way out but GWR? Exchange Stn was never in a 'good position'. L&Y heritage? And Wallgate is only 200m. Ooooh!
I'd plumb for Edge Hill which can easily take a 400m station. There is plenty of room. There used to be four tracks through Olive Mount cutting out to Huyton (St. Helens Jcn?) After that I suppose it's a new route to intersect HS2 ph2 north of the delta junction in Cheshire.
The advantage of EH over LPL JL is that it's quite centrally positioned in the conurbation and Merseyrail can be extended, as intended back in der dem days, to take in the City Line and provide good distribution around the city and beyond.

Certainly the emphasis at the mo' seems to be on improving the south end infrastructure, but I doubt if any HS pax are going to rush up from Brum or The Smoke to use Peel's Palace.

 

[Bevan Price]

Using any Liverpool terminus other than Lime Street makes things just as inconvenient as it will be by putting the Birmingham terminal at Curzon Street. Passengers changing between local & HS2 services would have to waste time taking themselves + luggage between two stations, negating much of the benefit of faster journeys on HS2.