New Scottish COVID-19 Restrictions 07/10/2020

[102 fan]

BBC News - Covid: Scots told to prepare for 'digital Christmas'

Covid: Scots told to prepare for 'digital Christmas'

The idea of people in Scotland having a normal Christmas in 2020 is "fiction", the national clinical director says.

www.bbc.co.uk

'Absolutely no question of a normal Christmas being allowed'

The National Clinical director, who obviously isn't in the real world.

 

[joncombe]

BBC News - Covid: Scots told to prepare for 'digital Christmas'

Covid: Scots told to prepare for 'digital Christmas'

The idea of people in Scotland having a normal Christmas in 2020 is "fiction", the national clinical director says.

www.bbc.co.uk

'Absolutely no question of a normal Christmas being allowed'

The National Clinical director, who obviously isn't in the real world.

If it doesn't happen before, that will be the time the restrictions become widely ignored and hence un-enforceable. I also wish anyone luck trying to get the majority of the police force to work on Christmas Day to enforce it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think we need that mature discussion in England too. For instance, you may well be able to sell people a compromise, of a stricter lockdown over Christmas but a loosening for a few days for family gatherings. The office party and big New Years' "dos" are clearly out though.

The National Clinical director, who obviously isn't in the real world.

Au contraire. We need to stop hiding from things, have a mature discussion on options, and stop pretending it will just go away.

 

[DB]

Au contraire. We need to stop hiding from things, have a mature discussion on options, and stop pretending it will just go away.

And that should include a clear and evidenced explanation of how any measures employed will contribute to a clearly-defined outcome. And normal standards of scientific proof should always be applied - so masks should be straight out as there's no even remotely compelling evidence that they make any difference. Any measures to delay the spread should have a clear and mesurable justification - and really the only one is to prevent the NHS being overwhelmed, but there should be clear evidence of that being a likely prospect in the near future and that the measure has evidence to suggest it will reduce that risk by a workthwhile amount - i.e. not just a catch all excuse for any and every petty rule.

 

[102 fan]

I think we need that mature discussion in England too. For instance, you may well be able to sell people a compromise, of a stricter lockdown over Christmas but a loosening for a few days for family gatherings. The office party and big New Years' "dos" are clearly out though.



Au contraire. We need to stop hiding from things, have a mature discussion on options, and stop pretending it will just go away.

Are you in the real world?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you in the real world?

Yes. Those who think Christmas can be anything like normal this year are the ones who aren't.

 

[DB]

Yes. Those who think Christmas can be anything like normal this year are the ones who aren't.

If you serious think that people will comply with any 'ban' then you are surely mistaken. If they try, there will be widespread flouting of it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you serious think that people will comply with any 'ban' then you are surely mistaken. If they try, there will be widespread flouting of it.

Then we need to have a mature discussion on how we can make a family Christmas possible, e.g. by way of what I suggested, a full lockdown over the 2 weeks of the Christmas break except say 24-27 Dec.

Just shouting "won't won't won't" is not going to make this go away. We need a mature discussion about it.

Scotland I trust to have that discussion (and I think Sturgeon should, and probably will, initiate it soon). England I don't.

 

[102 fan]

Yes. Those who think Christmas can be anything like normal this year are the ones who aren't.

There is no point in debating if you think people will stop celebrating Christmas like it has been for 100's of years, especially after this year.

What police force are going to prosecute families on Christmas day? Only one that will loose whatever public faith they still have.

 

[DB]

Just shouting "won't won't won't" is not going to make this go away. We need a mature discussion about it.

And it's your approach which leads to the "we must do something, even if there's no evidence that it'll make any difference" approach. It's not going away, and there is no precedent, ever, for stopping a widespread respiratory virus. THe only worthwhile discussion is around how can those particularly at risk be protected so far as is possible, and how to avoid overwhelming the health service. There really is nothing else which is worthy of debate, and measures such as masks which have clearly made no difference should be scrapped.

 

[al78]

Then we need to have a mature discussion on how we can make a family Christmas possible, e.g. by way of what I suggested, a full lockdown over the 2 weeks of the Christmas break except say 24-27 Dec.

Just shouting "won't won't won't" is not going to make this go away. We need a mature discussion about it.

Scotland I trust to have that discussion (and I think Sturgeon should, and probably will, initiate it soon). England I don't.

I agree in principle, but when advocating enforcing severe restrictions on people's lives, you have to have a strategy for how to enforce those restrictions. If a regulation is unenforcable, it is useless, it just means the law abiting subset of the population suffer relative to those who flout it without consequence. That is the point that is being made. I'd love a mature discussion, as long as emotion and fallacious arguments doesn't override logic which nearly always happens in situations like this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is no point in debating if you think people will stop celebrating Christmas like it has been for 100's of years, especially after this year.

What police force are going to prosecute families on Christmas day? Only one that will loose whatever public faith they still have.

The same ones who did exactly that with one day's notice at Eid, perchance?

A family Christmas has lots of problems. Granny and grandad, your old uncle with a triple heart bypass, a history of DVT and severe asthma, the young kids and the students just back from uni all in one room with the windows shut plus a load of alcohol suppressing peoples' immune systems. What do you think might happen there?

It is many, many times worse than a group of students down 'Spoons in a student area.

 

[kez19]

and of course the way we will be going, a 4th, 5th....till the penny drops !

Oh will it ever end....

 

[duncanp]

Bah, Humbug:

The idea of a normal Christmas is a "fiction" and Scots should prepare for digital celebrations, national clinical director Ebeneezer Scrooge Jason Leech has said.

Absolutely.

Even Ebeneezer Scrooge allowed Bob Cratchit the day off on Christmas Day to spend with his family, and broke the no household mixing indoors rule when he went round to his nephew's house.

Can't help thinking of Nicola Sturgeon as the wicked stepmother in Cinderella

Nicola Sturgeon : Christmas is cancelled
Scottish People : Oh no it isn't!
Nicola Sturgeon : Oh yes it is!

etc. etc.................

 

[kez19]

Then we need to have a mature discussion on how we can make a family Christmas possible, e.g. by way of what I suggested, a full lockdown over the 2 weeks of the Christmas break except say 24-27 Dec.

Just shouting "won't won't won't" is not going to make this go away. We need a mature discussion about it.

Scotland I trust to have that discussion (and I think Sturgeon should, and probably will, initiate it soon). England I don't.

You kidding right? Sturgeon will do as she pleases but people I have spoken to locally are fed up with all this now, so I can see Scots telling her to take a hike! If they want us to have a digital Christmas I wonder if they do the same? Short answer no

why full lockdown it doesn’t solve anything unless you hoping for another wave? I guess that’s the plan, full lockdown moan about numbers and restrictions then continue adding more on, it’s nothing more than a farce

 

[al78]

There really is nothing else which is worthy of debate, and measures such as masks which have clearly made no difference should be scrapped.

Not clear that assertion is true at all.

https://royalsociety.org/-/media/policy/projects/set-c/set-c-facemasks.pdf?la=en-GB&hash=A22A87CB28F7D6AD9BD93BBCBFC2BB24

Face masks: what the data say

The science supports that face coverings are saving lives during the coronavirus pandemic, and yet the debate trundles on. How much evidence is enough?

www.nature.com

https://aip.scitation.org/doi/full/10.1063/5.0016018

Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus

We talked to UCSF epidemiologist George Rutherford, MD, and infectious disease specialist Peter Chin-Hong, MD, about the CDC’s reversal on mask-wearing, the current science on how masks work, and what to consider when choosing a mask.

www.ucsf.edu

 

[kez19]

Yes. Those who think Christmas can be anything like normal this year are the ones who aren't.

I’ll fetch my coat...care to look at it with all sectors and industries than just one?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You kidding right? Sturgeon will do as she pleases but people I have spoken to locally are fed up with all this now, so I can see Scots telling her to take a hike! If they want us to have a digital Christmas I wonder if they do the same? Short answer no

I'm thoroughly fed up with it but I'm also realistic that it may be needed. That people are fed up doesn't mean they will necessarily disregard it.

I'm presently fed up with sticking pins in myself twice a day while my warfarin levels come up, but I'm still doing it because the alternative is worse.

I was fed up with commuting after a couple of months when I used to have to do it, but I still did it, because the alternative was not getting paid.

 

[DB]

The same ones who did exactly that with one day's notice at Eid, perchance?

That is celabrated by a minority. Chrismas is something entirely different, and is now largely a secular midwinter festival which involves most of the country.

A family Christmas has lots of problems. Granny and grandad, your old uncle with a triple heart bypass, a history of DVT and severe asthma, the young kids and the students just back from uni all in one room with the windows shut plus a load of alcohol suppressing peoples' immune systems. What do you think might happen there?

Well they will be aware of the risks now, and they can make their own decisions, can't they? If they don't want to take the risk then nobody is saying they have to.

I'm thoroughly fed up with it but I'm also realistic that it may be needed. That people are fed up doesn't mean they will necessarily disregard it.

I'm presently fed up with sticking pins in myself twice a day while my warfarin levels come up, but I'm still doing it because the alternative is worse.

I was fed up with commuting after a couple of months when I used to have to do it, but I still did it, because the alternative was not getting paid.

Irrelevant comparisons aren't helping your argument...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well they will be aware of the risks now, and they can make their own decisions, can't they? If they don't want to take the risk then nobody is saying they have to.

Say that to the doctors and nurses who aren't having a family Christmas because they are looking after people who have caught COVID through irresponsible behaviour.

 

[DB]

Say that to the doctors and nurses who aren't having a family Christmas because they are looking after people who have caught COVID through irresponsible behaviour.

"Irresponsible" = "people doing things which as an authoritarian I don't think they should be doing"

 

[kez19]

I'm thoroughly fed up with it but I'm also realistic that it may be needed. That people are fed up doesn't mean they will necessarily disregard it.

I'm presently fed up with sticking pins in myself twice a day while my warfarin levels come up, but I'm still doing it because the alternative is worse.

I was fed up with commuting after a couple of months when I used to have to do it, but I still did it, because the alternative was not getting paid.

So am I already worked through it but what you think realistically isn’t the same as these politicians but I think and as said numerous times now it’s all being made up as they go along.

Why should people give up Christmas/New year?, if they have guts in saying these things back it up and actually do it themselves too but we know this won’t end well.

It is as far as I’m concerned it’s a us/them environment that’s been created, we are already seeing it in Westminster, Holyrood may feel untouched at the moment but I can see a storm coming and Sturgeon is unprepared like I say karma is coming for all these politicians

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Irresponsible" = "people doing things which as an authoritarian I don't think they should be doing"

I think "following the law of the country you live in" is a reasonable base.

It would appear likely that the law of Scotland will be no family Christmases.

So am I already worked through it but what you think realistically isn’t the same as these politicians but I think and as said numerous times now it’s all being made up as they go along.

Why should people give up Christmas/New year?, if they have guts in saying these things back it up and actually do it themselves too but we know this won’t end well.

Certainly some politicians have taken the mick, and they should resign and be prosecuted. However, two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[DB]

I think "following the law of the country you live in" is a reasonable base.

It would appear likely that the law of Scotland will be no family Christmases.

The rule of law only works if the majority follow it, and introducing an every-changing parade of petty restrictions is a good way to reduce respect for law. Laws also need to be enforceable, and any law "banning" families from meeting at Christmas simply wouldn't be as it would be very widely ignored.

 

[kez19]

I think "following the law of the country you live in" is a reasonable base.

It would appear likely that the law of Scotland will be no family Christmases.



Certainly some politicians have taken the mick, and they should resign and be prosecuted. However, two wrongs don't make a right.

Oddly enough in Scotland politicians don’t resign more like given cushy jobs out of sight! Yes I agree 2 wrongs don’t make a right but in Scotland this doesn’t happen.

Yet it’s the public that gets fines for wrong doing politicians get slapped wrists ... I see a pattern here

Yes just like Calderwood went to her second home in Fife resigned or the latest SNP MSP who won’t resign with signs of COVID going to London and returning to Glasgow but still wasn’t prosecuted or that but still had that been a member of the public expect armed guards at your door to ask why you didn’t isolate or be fined, the pattern is happening right in front of you but you cannot see it.

 

[duncanp]

I think "following the law of the country you live in" is a reasonable base.

Following the law is what people should do, providing the laws are formulated in a democratic and reasonable way.

Where is the consultation beforehand?

Where is the evidence to back up the laws that are being proposed?

Has the matter been debated in the Scottish parliament? (I believe it is going to be next week, but Sturgeon seems to assume that MSPs will rubber stamp her proposals, rather then engage in genuine debate, with perhaps some amendments and safeguards.)

St Nicola has already lied to the people of Scotland (She said the circuit breaker was only going to be for 16 days, and it has already been extended by a week, and she has said that it is "not safe" to ease any of the restrictions yet)

So there is no reason to suppose she won't lie again.

 

[Domh245]

Say that to the doctors and nurses who aren't having a family Christmas because they are looking after people who have caught COVID through irresponsible behaviour.

Those same doctors and nurses who'd be working festive periods anyway?

 

[kez19]

Say that to the doctors and nurses who aren't having a family Christmas because they are looking after people who have caught COVID through irresponsible behaviour.

I like the fact that the word irresponsible is brought up, is this the fact of what the media has told you to say? Who is to say that could be in fact people have been responsibly behaved get thrown under a bus and branded as irresponsible? Sorry to say I feel those that are more irresponsible as those in power and that of the media (they are the ones that need more accountability than your citizen)?

I read in my local paper yesterday from a reader letter who has COPD basically telling people who don’t wear a mask to be thrown in jail! I can see where we are heading and how irresponsible the politicians have made it but well done! Don’t wear a mask get jailed, yet criminals get off

 

[duncanp]

Don’t wear a mask get jailed, yet criminals get off

Including certain MPs travelling by Avanti West Coast from Glasgow to London, and London to Glasgow

 

[kez19]

Including certain MPs travelling by Avanti West Coast from Glasgow to London, and London to Glasgow

Thank you, I just mentioned this in above post but bingo.