New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[HowardGWR]

An off peak return from Bristol to Gatwick via route 'Guildford Reading' is £78.90 with a super off peak return at £63.20, whereas via 'Warminster-Salisbury' it's £61.80.

Rather less of a stark difference.

Indeed. My search was a week or two ago. I wonder what made the difference? All the trains gave the same huge difference in price. I tried it on both the GWR site and the SWT site and it gave the same. Strange. Perhaps they have already taken note (I published that finding on another site at the time). Good that they brought it down then, if so!!!

I would probably opt for SWT /SN, anyway, as it would be a more interesting trip, apart from the price.

 

[Class 170101]

Lymington has already been earmarked for a 450 when available (as is used Sat & Sun) - a unit should become available this years once the 707s come into use.. But even before the new franchisee came up with the plan to bin them completely, a 456 would never have made any sense for Lymington, as they would have all been needed for main suburban 10 car running. That's why SWT plan to take them off the Ascot - Guildfords very soon.

The new franchisee intends to extend one Portsmouth to Southampton service to Weymouth, and run a second Portsmouth to Southampton service as well. There's been no suggestion of through running to Lymington.

Fair enough though it must be said I was looking at options to release the 158/159 from said route. The 456 option surely remains available post 2019/2020 when the new trains come in as they will have no work by then? Secondly unless I have mis-understood the comment about the second Portsmouth to Southampton is there no reason why this couldn't be extended to Lymington? Again accepting your comment about through running to Lymington but things can change.

 

[swt_passenger]

Fair enough though it must be said I was looking at options to release the 158/159 from said route. The 456 option surely remains available post 2019/2020 when the new trains come in as they will have no work by then? Secondly unless I have mis-understood the comment about the second Portsmouth to Southampton is there no reason why this couldn't be extended to Lymington? Again accepting your comment about through running to Lymington but things can change.

One 456 to operate the service when the rest have gone makes no sense, they'd at least need a second one as a spare. That ends up being a 'micro fleet' with unique maintenance, spares and training requirements. Far easier to just use a 450 all week. They already publicly announced this but it was delayed when the 458/5 project over-ran.

I think operationally it is much safer to stick with a self contained Lymington branch. It is just the right length for a single unit to reliably shuttle back and forth all day at half hour intervals. Also, with an existing 4 tph service between Southampton and Brockenhurst 3 SW + 1 XC, is there any real need for yet another through service?

I'm reading the ITT spec as strongly suggesting that the Portsmouth - Weymouth service will include a re-jig of one or more of the existing Poole or Weymouth services, and it won't actually be an extra.

But we'll see when the timetable gets explained or confirmed...

 

[Suraggu]

One 456 to operate the service when the rest have gone makes no sense, they'd at least need a second one as a spare. That ends up being a 'micro fleet' with unique maintenance, spares and training requirements. Far easier to just use a 450 all week. They already publicly announced this but it was delayed when the 458/5 project over-ran.

I think operationally it is much safer to stick with a self contained Lymington branch. It is just the right length for a single unit to reliably shuttle back and forth all day at half hour intervals. Also, with an existing 4 tph service between Southampton and Brockenhurst 3 SW + 1 XC, is there any real need for yet another through service?

I'm reading the ITT spec as strongly suggesting that the Portsmouth - Weymouth service will include a re-jig of one or more of the existing Poole or Weymouth services, and it won't actually be an extra.

But we'll see when the timetable gets explained or confirmed...

From what industry sources are speculating on is that Waterloo to Weymouth will be served 1x tph and their will be Waterloo to Wareham 1x tph.

The Waterloo to Poole service will be diverted to Portsmouth Harbour via Botley to meet the increase in services required.

The new Portsmouth Harbour to Weymouth will take the 2BXX path from St Denys to Poole and extend to Weymouth.

So Pompey to Soton will be 2x tph, 1 stopper and 1 semi fast.

 

[southern442]

One 456 to operate the service when the rest have gone makes no sense, they'd at least need a second one as a spare. That ends up being a 'micro fleet' with unique maintenance, spares and training requirements. Far easier to just use a 450 all week. They already publicly announced this but it was delayed when the 458/5 project over-ran.

I think operationally it is much safer to stick with a self contained Lymington branch. It is just the right length for a single unit to reliably shuttle back and forth all day at half hour intervals. Also, with an existing 4 tph service between Southampton and Brockenhurst 3 SW + 1 XC, is there any real need for yet another through service?

Would it make sense to keep the 456's in a Southern-313-type situation? Ascot to Guildford, Lymington Branch and Pompey-Soton? And anywhere else that has a shuttle-type service, not sure if there are any others.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

From what industry sources are speculating on is that Waterloo to Weymouth will be served 1x tph and their will be Waterloo to Wareham 1x tph.

The Waterloo to Poole service will be diverted to Portsmouth Harbour via Botley to meet the increase in services required.

The new Portsmouth Harbour to Weymouth will take the 2BXX path from St Denys to Poole and extend to Weymouth.

So Pompey to Soton will be 2x tph, 1 stopper and 1 semi fast.

Will the Waterloo-Poole one that's being diverted to Portsmouth form the Portsmouth-Weymouth train once it reaches Portsmouth?

Will the new Portsmouth-Weymouth train stop at all stations between Southampton and Weymouth?

 

[Suraggu]

Will the Waterloo-Poole one that's being diverted to Portsmouth form the Portsmouth-Weymouth train once it reaches Portsmouth?

Will the new Portsmouth-Weymouth train stop at all stations between Southampton and Weymouth?

God knows, it's purely industry speculation.

 

[Suraggu]

Would it make sense to keep the 456's in a Southern-313-type situation? Ascot to Guildford, Lymington Branch and Pompey-Soton? And anywhere else that has a shuttle-type service, not sure if there are any others.

They are to be sent packing when the new fleet arrives.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Also First have not been using the slogan "transforming travel" for sometime.

So what was First Scotrail then if they don't use 'First'?

 

[Suraggu]

So what was First Scotrail then if they don't use 'First'?

I suggest you check First's rebrand of its Great Western Franchise and Transpennine Express. All you will find is a subtle 'A First Group company branding.

First Scotrail morphed into Scotrail with small 'Operated by First Group's logos on the doors when the Scottish Government decided to implement changes to the way it's railway franchise was branded.

 

[jopsuk]

So what was First Scotrail then if they don't use 'First'?

It was First ScotRail. Checking through the glossy bits at the front of the annual reports, it appears the last time they used "Transforming Travel" was in the reports for Financial Year 2009, published in 2010. By the 2010 report (published 2011) the slogan was gone.

 

[infobleep]

Portsmouth & Southsea has had barriers since the very early days of privatisation, so early that they predate the Gunwharf Quays development which now means that Southsea is the quietest of the three Portsmouth stations. Fratton has never had barriers, Portsmouth Harbour is a logistical nightmare to add barriers to due to the requirement to allow access to the Wightlink Terminal.

Could they just not issue station tickets, similar to the footbridge passes at Guildford to cross the station.

 

[jimm]

The figures quoted show reasonable growth West of Salisbury for many stations in the region of several thousand. However, growth isn't the key factor if the single three carriage trains are already crowded to start off with.

What growth there has been - in some cases the figures were negative in case you have already forgotten - is, as tbtc pointed out when posting, below the national average over that period in most cases. Unlike what happened over the same period in other parts of the country.

I don't object the franchise going "off piste" to Frome etc. I do object to them squandering diesel sets on electric diagrams and giving them away to other operators when there are people standing in the vestibules. I suspect the artificial revenue costs of running additional carriages (in terms of track access charges etc) may be putting them off resolving the situation satisfactorily.

The sets with GWR and EMT were not 'given away' to other operators - they are being used by other operators rather than sitting in Salisbury depot, which is why they were released from SWY in the first place. If the SWT fleet was struggling to cope with demand on WoE services as you keep claiming, then they would not have been available for redeployment in the first place, nor would SWT be using dmus on electrified lies, or adding extra services off the core route - though you don't mind that...:roll::roll::roll:

Without going through them indetail most (if not all) of these look be in marginal time where they would be unable to make any difference to peak capacity into / out of Waterloo.

Until his most recent post, about afternoons, yorksrob had not said what time of day he had encountered problems but his beef is what is happening

west of Salisbury

nothing was said by hime about east of Salisbury in the peaks, when crowded trains aren't exactly a surprise, like any service around London.

I would agree there may be some scope to withdraw these and leave this in the hands of the GW franchise holder. However some may value the direct service that SWT offers to Bristol.

They can't withdraw the Bristol service, it is a core requirement in the franchise for the whole term. The Somerest extras are experimental and could potentially be ditched at the end of 2018.

Granted it was probably an ORCRATS raid to start with but those passenger numbers suggest the 'raid' has actually done more than that.

The hand of Orcats raiding is all over this one - traffic at Warminster actually fell in 2015-16, after strong growth between 2012-13 and 2014-15, which probably helped attract SWT's interest. Similar growth spurt at Westbury, and still growing there in 2015-16, and who wouldn't like a few coppers from Castle Cary's Glastonbury Festival week? Frome and Bruton have both grown consistently over the period.

Interestingly, I recently compared the cost of an off peak return from Bristol to Gatwick via Clapham Junction (SWT and SN) and it was £62 odd and with GWR via Reading, it was £227, IIRC.

You weren't looking at an off-peak GWR fare - the Anytime return is £221...

For whats its worth, SWT have been restricting their autumn/winter/spring fares on-line promotions to start from Yeovil Junction due to a stated "lack of capacity" West of there - thats SWTs words, not mine.

Promotional fares are used to fill seats on service where there is spare capacity, so if trains are well used, they won't bother offering them. Ryanair don't offer 5p seats on flights where they know they can sell them for a lot more, nor do TOCs offer lots of cheap advances at busy times.

Aren't GWR meant to start running a Devon Metro service to Honiton soon or is that dependent on the 166's being cascaded to SPM and Bristol area?

Anyway if GWR do the Devon Metro to Honiton, that would then allow for the minor stations between Honiton & Central to be omitted by SWT (or whatever their successor is this particular week) meaning faster journey times for those to/from London.

The Devon Metro plan aims for a half-hourly service as far as Axminster, not Honiton, and requires a lot more than just more GWR dmus - in particular an additional passing loop would have to be built at Cranbrook or Whimple. And it would rather defeat the point of increasing the frequency if the London services then only called at Honiton and Axminster.

 

[swt_passenger]

Would it make sense to keep the 456's in a Southern-313-type situation? Ascot to Guildford, Lymington Branch and Pompey-Soton? And anywhere else that has a shuttle-type service, not sure if there are any others.

Can't see why it would make much sense, no. They'll have plenty of 450s to operate the services you mention. Besides, there is increasing evidence that the Portsmouth - Southampton service will be extended to Weymouth, about a three hour trip if calling at nearly all stations as is suggested.

 

[bb21]

Would it make sense to keep the 456's in a Southern-313-type situation? Ascot to Guildford, Lymington Branch and Pompey-Soton? And anywhere else that has a shuttle-type service, not sure if there are any others.

Absolutely not.

456s already struggle with the climb up Bagshot bank as it is, which is why they must operate as pairs on the route. The sooner they can move on the better for everyone.

 

[swt_passenger]

From what industry sources are speculating on is that Waterloo to Weymouth will be served 1x tph and their will be Waterloo to Wareham 1x tph.

The Waterloo to Poole service will be diverted to Portsmouth Harbour via Botley to meet the increase in services required.

The new Portsmouth Harbour to Weymouth will take the 2BXX path from St Denys to Poole and extend to Weymouth.

So Pompey to Soton will be 2x tph, 1 stopper and 1 semi fast.

The ITT did seem to suggest breaking the Waterloo - Poole service at Southampton, but I can't see it being diverted to Portsmouth via Botley all day. That would remove a stopper into Southampton from the Eastleigh direction. However they do already do that in the down direction evening peak, they introduce a few short workings to cover the stoppers in the Winchester - Eastleigh - Southampton part of the route, (some have been DMUs in recent years).

Will be interesting to see if they retain the long layovers at Southampton and Brockenhurst if it is definitely the former down Poole service which links with the service from Portsmouth. At the moment the down Poole stopper leaves Southampton just before (7 mins?) the stopper from Portsmouth arrives, so they'd be the obvious trains to link.

Another minor point - it seems an extra over the spec is running a train as far as Wareham, the ITT suggested one of the three trains west of Southampton should still terminate at Poole, with two going through to Weymouth,

 

[yorksrob]

What growth there has been - in some cases the figures were negative in case you have already forgotten - is, as tbtc pointed out when posting, below the national average over that period in most cases. Unlike what happened over the same period in other parts of the country.



The sets with GWR and EMT were not 'given away' to other operators - they are being used by other operators rather than sitting in Salisbury depot, which is why they were released from SWY in the first place. If the SWT fleet was struggling to cope with demand on WoE services as you keep claiming, then they would not have been available for redeployment in the first place, nor would SWT be using dmus on electrified lies, or adding extra services off the core route - though you don't mind that...:roll::roll::roll:



Until his most recent post, about afternoons, yorksrob had not said what time of day he had encountered problems but his beef is what is happening nothing was said by hime about east of Salisbury in the peaks, when crowded trains aren't exactly a surprise, like any service around London.

TBTC's comparison of passenger numbers spans four years (as you doubtless remember).

One three carriage 159 every hour doesn't compare particularly favourably to the nine carriage rake of mk2's that used to trundle down to Exeter every two hours, twenty-five years ago. It's hardly surprising that a single unit every hour isn't enough in this day and age. It doesn't live up to the growth the railways have seen over that period.

Others on here have backed up my anecdotal observations of people standing in the vestibules. There would be no excuse for units sitting in Salisbury depot.

 

[LowLevel]

The reason the sets are released are that by and large, for example, EMT couldn't operate their booked services without 889 in the fleet.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Assuming that the Swanage Railway's trial (when it eventually happens) of running their DMU all the way into Wareham, would the scope exist to tweak the arrival and departure times at Wareham to allow people to connect with the Swanage Railway trains?

 

[Goldfish62]

Would it make sense to keep the 456's in a Southern-313-type situation? Ascot to Guildford, Lymington Branch and Pompey-Soton? And anywhere else that has a shuttle-type service, not sure if there are any others.

They'd have to fit toilets to them in line with their franchise commitment. Quite apart from this no one I've come across who works with them has a good word to say about these units. They're going.

 

[jopsuk]

Assuming that the Swanage Railway's trial (when it eventually happens) of running their DMU all the way into Wareham, would the scope exist to tweak the arrival and departure times at Wareham to allow people to connect with the Swanage Railway trains?

The heritage railway will almost certainly try to organise its timetable around the mainline timetable for this.

 

[The Ham]

Assuming that the Swanage Railway's trial (when it eventually happens) of running their DMU all the way into Wareham, would the scope exist to tweak the arrival and departure times at Wareham to allow people to connect with the Swanage Railway trains?

I would guess that the Swanage Railway would have more scope to adjust their timetable to allow their services to have a reasonable connection with the mainline services than the other way around.

However, for now it is a little academic as the service is due to run a certain number of days a year (I would guess probably just summer and school holiday weekends), with it increasing as they see demand grow (going via school holidays and weekends before it even gets to every day, if it gets that far - which I hope it does but it is likely to be at least a few years off).

Given that the alternative is a relatively slow bus from Bournemouth or Wareham (both subject to traffic congestion, especially in the summer) it is likely that even a 20 minute wait wouldn't be too bad in the overall journey time when comparing both options.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is there any scope for SWTs to run "Summertime Specials" to Swanage or after the 2 158 units to be permanently transferred (1 to EMT, 1 to GWR) and units out of service for routine maintenance and/or exams would they near enough need all their 158s and 159s for running the existing timetable on the West of England line?

I'm thinking if the scope is there it'd arrive at Swanage around about 10:00/11:00 ish and return back to where it came from around 16:00/17:00ish

 

[Feathers44]

Over the summer I was down in Templecombe one day a week for four months, travelling down on the 8:30ish from Clapham and back on the 4:45ish. Traveling down was almost always comfortably empty (except a couple of times in August), filling disproportionately at Tisbury on occasion.

Travelling back, I (or anyone else) only had to 'vestibule travel' once on a particularly full service that I noticed.

Obviously, I'm not talking full peak here although it was noticeable that the one occasion I got the 4:00 all stopper and changed to a 444 at Basingstoke, the EMU was absolutely rammed while the 159 had given me a carriage to myself for half the journey west of Salisbury. (We picked up school traffic from there which didn't fill the train by any means...except in volume).

 

[jimm]

TBTC's comparison of passenger numbers spans four years (as you doubtless remember).

One three carriage 159 every hour doesn't compare particularly favourably to the nine carriage rake of mk2's that used to trundle down to Exeter every two hours, twenty-five years ago. It's hardly surprising that a single unit every hour isn't enough in this day and age. It doesn't live up to the growth the railways have seen over that period.

Others on here have backed up my anecdotal observations of people standing in the vestibules. There would be no excuse for units sitting in Salisbury depot.

Yes, I do doubtless remember, and the fact is that those GWR area stations show stronger and more sustained growth over that period than almost all of the WoE route ones, where the figures are much more patchy and various factors are clearly at play.

At Pinhoe the leap probably has plenty to do with the introduction of extra trains and the ticket barriers at Exeter Central, which put a stop to people getting a free ride into Exeter, knowing full well that the guard would be unlikely get to them to sell a ticket in the course of the five-minute journey. Those trips now actually earn money for the railway. A lot of Axminster and Honiton's growth will be people travelling to and from Exeter, encouraged to take the train by the enhanced frequency and maybe a bit of the ticket barriers factor as well.

I lived in Exeter for a couple years when nine-carriage rakes of Mk2s used to trundle down the line and they were carrying around a lot of air the further west you were - if every train nowadays were lengthened all the way west by coupling on two or three more coaches, then for much of the day you would just be recreating that situation.

SWT has done a lot with the timetable lately to spread out demand, such as a 30-minute frequency from London out to Yeovil from 15.20 to 19.20, presumably based on actual passenger counts over sustained periods, as opposed to anecdotes of occasional trips.

I could come up with anecdotes about overcrowded trains that I have travelled on in all sorts of places over the years, but they don't necessarily prove anything - you only have to look at the post back up the thread about a full and standing service at Salisbury on Saturday morning, which, on further investigation, was down to the cancellation of the first train out of Exeter and the following service picking up the best part of two trains' worth of passengers.

 

[RPI]

Yes, I do doubtless remember, and the fact is that those GWR area stations show stronger and more sustained growth over that period than almost all of the WoE route ones, where the figures are much more patchy and various factors are clearly at play.

At Pinhoe the leap probably has plenty to do with the introduction of extra trains and the ticket barriers at Exeter Central, which put a stop to people getting a free ride into Exeter, knowing full well that the guard would be unlikely get to them to sell a ticket in the course of the five-minute journey. Those trips now actually earn money for the railway. A lot of Axminster and Honiton's growth will be people travelling to and from Exeter, encouraged to take the train by the enhanced frequency and maybe a bit of the ticket barriers factor as well.

I lived in Exeter for a couple years when nine-carriage rakes of Mk2s used to trundle down the line and they were carrying around a lot of air the further west you were - if every train nowadays were lengthened all the way west by coupling on two or three more coaches, then for much of the day you would just be recreating that situation.

SWT has done a lot with the timetable lately to spread out demand, such as a 30-minute frequency from London out to Yeovil from 15.20 to 19.20, presumably based on actual passenger counts over sustained periods, as opposed to anecdotes of occasional trips.

I could come up with anecdotes about overcrowded trains that I have travelled on in all sorts of places over the years, but they don't necessarily prove anything - you only have to look at the post back up the thread about a full and standing service at Salisbury on Saturday morning, which, on further investigation, was down to the cancellation of the first train out of Exeter and the following service picking up the best part of two trains' worth of passengers.

being a regular user of services West of Salisbury I'd agree, most services on a normal day I get two seats to myself and the two "shuttles" that run to Honiton (1636 from exd) and Axminster (1746 from exd) nicely spread the load at peak time, only on the 1725 from exd have I ever actually had to stand and even then after Honiton there's a lot of fresh air.

 

[TEW]

They'd have to fit toilets to them in line with their franchise commitment. Quite apart from this no one I've come across who works with them has a good word to say about these units. They're going.

The doors are nice and quick compared to a Desiro, that's about the only good thing I can say for them. It would be interesting to see how a pair coped with the timetable on a Portsmouth-Southampton stopper compared to a 450. But it's all academic, they're all going.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there any scope for SWTs to run "Summertime Specials" to Swanage or after the 2 158 units to be permanently transferred (1 to EMT, 1 to GWR) and units out of service for routine maintenance and/or exams would they near enough need all their 158s and 159s for running the existing timetable on the West of England line?

I'm thinking if the scope is there it'd arrive at Swanage around about 10:00/11:00 ish and return back to where it came from around 16:00/17:00ish

SWT have run services to Wareham already on Summer Saturdays during the period that 2 x 158s have been loaned out. So if they can do that already with the current fleet they should still be able to do it again.

You asked nearly the exact same question at the end of 2015 in this thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=124918&highlight=swanage+railway+wareham

and I referred you back to this one: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2088008#post2088008

...where the relevant track access application for the Saturday Wareham service was discussed. Each time you got a positive answer. So if they can do that already with the 2015/2016 fleet they should still be able to do it again.

There is a commercial impact of through running to Swanage though, which must be accounted for. If SWT went all the way, they'd want to keep the fares wouldn't they? So that would presumably reduce the Swanage Railway income. Probably why most heritage lines around the country don't include through running by the local TOC as a matter of course, it's only done for PR purposes periodically, or for rail tours.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

They'd have to fit toilets to them in line with their franchise commitment. Quite apart from this no one I've come across who works with them has a good word to say about these units. They're going.

Putting a pair of 456s on the Netley road would be asking for trouble, with its steep climbs up to Swanwick and Hamble, Woolston/Sholing.

They struggle to get out of Guildford, Camberley and Bagshot.

 

[Muzer]

I commute from London, and I find that the West of England services in the evening (especially the 18:50 which is among the first of the services to drop down significantly in length after the evening peak) are by far the busiest of the trains towards Basingstoke. I am often left standing on them. Weymouth services are very quiet given it's the peak; the Portsmouth via Eastleighs/Poole stoppers in the evening peak aren't too bad either despite being only 8 coaches.