New trains for East Midlands Franchise

[RealTrains07]

XC itself is under Government review before the award of the next franchise (hence the Arriva extension). I took part by means of survey in that review and they are scrutinising everything on XC from rolling stock to the XC network itself. Im not sure cascading Meridians would help, as then XC will have 2 incompatible fleets in 220/221 vs 222 plus additional maintenance contract headaches. It is highly likely (as hinted in the survey) that the 220/221 fleet will be replaced on XC in the new franchise with a 125mph bi-mode alternative offering more capacity. It could mean more 800/802's being built, but Bombardier have also got an equivalent (looks much better than the IET) called the Inter-City Aventra and I think Bombardier will be in the mix for future new rolling stock for XC.

XC need HST replacements first, then 220.

 

[Chester1]

Waste of time replacing the meridian fleet, they are arguably far younger compared to their HST counterparts.

Meridians will be used by another ToC, probably CrossCountry. They are not right for the MML in the long term. A new fleet will make the most platform lengths to increase capacity, be faster between St Pancras and Market Harborough and reduce diesel emissions.

 

[RealTrains07]

Well since abellio hasnt confirmed to be ordering bi modes yet, anything could happen since their are still areas of non electrified line on MML

Meridians will be used by another ToC, probably CrossCountry. They are not right for the MML in the long term. A new fleet will make the most platform lengths to increase capacity, be faster between St Pancras and Market Harborough and reduce diesel emissions.

 

[RealTrains07]

Does anyone know what abellio is going to do about 153,156 and possibly 158 replacement? The first two are in need of binning and replaced with modern reliable trains

 

[hwl]

Well since abellio hasnt confirmed to be ordering bi modes yet, anything could happen since their are still areas of non electrified line on MML

You probably aren't aware that DfT asked the existing franchise to start the procurement process for the Bi-modes, hence why we know about the requirement to match 222s on diesel requirement.
100% Intercity Bi-mode isn't news...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Does anyone know what abellio is going to do about 153,156 and possibly 158 replacement? The first two are in need of binning and replaced with modern reliable trains

My hunch is they'll keep the 158s and get more from Transport for Wales. Possibly the 175s too... in fact, if they end up with Hull's 180s they'll become a retirement home for dodgy Alstom rubbish!

The only reason EMTs 156s look tired is the lack of TLC they get... to think this is the same company that felt the need to put notices up in units transferred from (old) Northern apologising for the state of them. A refurbished Northern 156 would now wipe the floor with anything EMT could muster.

The high density layout of their 158s is poor too, although arguably needed on the Hope Valley service.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Is it fact or speculation about the new home of TPEs class 185s? If Iarnrod Eireann get their hand on the 185s and re-guage them then hey I'll shut up, but if a new home can be found in the UK then surely replacing EMTs regional fleet wouldnt be a bad shout, yes they are heavy and thirsty but pretty reliable and on a number of routes would never need to be opened up (engine wise) to high rpms to achieve the current timetables and they will become available soon

 

[hooverboy]

It's also a question on whether they'd order 7/9 car units or any 4/5 car too.

uniform fleet of 6 car 395 type(20m bodyshell) with bi-mode would be ideal...you can still fit 2 of those nose to tail at st pancras.they will also fit wellingborough which is overrun on 8 car HST and voyager sets presently.

that would also give about 10-15% extra in seating as well.(very welcome improvement on 4/5 car 222 which are frequently standing room only)

I'm not sure that 24m+ carriage length would be an option with potenital gauging problems at the curved platforms of bedford/wellingborough.

 

[hooverboy]

My hunch is they'll keep the 158s and get more from Transport for Wales. Possibly the 175s too... in fact, if they end up with Hull's 180s they'll become a retirement home for dodgy Alstom rubbish!

The only reason EMTs 156s look tired is the lack of TLC they get... to think this is the same company that felt the need to put notices up in units transferred from (old) Northern apologising for the state of them. A refurbished Northern 156 would now wipe the floor with anything EMT could muster.

The high density layout of their 158s is poor too, although arguably needed on the Hope Valley service.

I think the 153's will certainly go.....lincoln-peterborough, matlock line and derby-crewe would quite easily be doubled up to 2 car unit...156 or 150 would seem the most likely option as they are both cheap to operate,and peterborough/crewe diagrams are usually full to standing, so bonus points here for improvement!

158's are nice but have their limits....on coastal lines like skeggy the vestibule is frequently clogged up with suitcases as there's no overhead luggage space( 156's are a bonus in this respect, but not as comfortable to travel on)

as abellio have just offloaded their 170's from anglia...perhaps they are planning to transfer to EMT after an overhaul/refurb at litchurch(please fit better overhead luggage!),re-bogie to flexx eco and regear to 90mph to improve acceleration.

 

[jw]

Abellio’s Anglia 170s are destined for Wales, but West Midland 170s will be freed by their new CAF units. With a mix of 2 and 3 cars, they'd be ideal 153 and 156 replacements.

I'd be surprised if the 158s left the franchise.

 

[jw]

I take it 379's for Corby is a given?

I'd imagine the owners of the 350/2, 360 and possibly even 365 fleets would be keen to find a home for their fleets.

 

[angryskipfan]

Why 350/2 when Abelio will want to cascade all their GA 360's refurbished onto Corby freeing up 222's. This is most likely scenario for Abelio.

 

[hwl]

Why 350/2 when Abelio will want to cascade all their GA 360's refurbished onto Corby freeing up 222's. This is most likely scenario for Abelio.

The 360s aren't "theirs" either they belong to Angel, the 350/2 (also currently used by Abellio @ WM) are owned by Porterbrook and 379s by Macquarie.

 

[Thunderer]

XC need HST replacements first, then 220.

XC are actually considering more HST's for the Plymouth-Newcastle/Edinburgh corridor as a stop gap and to free up more Voyagers to double up on other services. It is at this point just a consideration, but groups in the SW are lobbying and pushing for more XC HST's because of the issues at Dawlish and bad weather where Voyagers are restricted through there or even not run at all. Watch this space, as with anything these days, who knows what will really happen.

 

[CAF397]

When you look at the description of the trains required for the new Liverpool-Nottingham and Derby-Norwich ..

Refurbished modern trains
Passenger Information system displays
Free onboard WiFi
At seat power sockets
USB points
Air conditioning
Tables at all seats
Increased luggage space

Basically that has just described how 185s are now following their refurbishment . All 51 have been refurbished by TPE, yet as we know not all are staying with the TOC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The new Class 185 interior is absolutely lovely - seriously classy, not far off ICE standard - and is ideal for this kind of long-run regional express. Would be more than happy to spend 3+ hours on one.

Very large overhead racks also help.

The only bad thing is the layout of 1st with a bit of Standard and a toilet trapped past it.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The new Class 185 interior is absolutely lovely - seriously classy, not far off ICE standard - and is ideal for this kind of long-run regional express. Would be more than happy to spend 3+ hours on one.

Very large overhead racks also help.

The only bad thing is the layout of 1st with a bit of Standard and a toilet trapped past it.

They may choose to retain a larger fleet of them if they’re to take over more services. Nova 4, anyone?

 

[whhistle]

In the same sentance, it states that Abellio will run "zero-carbon pilots at six stations along the route"; any ideas? Is this also a reference to traction and rolling stock?

Leicester could be one of these.
With plans for more platforms and an aging platform environment, updating it could be on the cards, making it carbon neutral at the same time.

 

[jcc]

See my post here about a complete fleet replacement.

 

[hwl]

EMT current local fleet is 62 units with 103 cars in total.
The Available 170s from WM are 23 units with 52 cars total
The 175 are 27 units with 70cars total.

Hence it looks like there might not be enough 170/175s? (even after shortening Liverpool Norwich)

Have TfW actually signed the leases for the ex Anglia ones or are they still dithering?

 

[anamyd]

Have TfW actually signed the leases for the ex Anglia 170s or are they still dithering?

Not sure, but a TfW employee has said they may now be transferring in the summer rather than October. I noticed a few posts up that they've already been "offloaded" - if so what has replaced them, not 755s already surely?!

 

[Class 170101]

No 170s have left Anglia as the Class 755s are yet to enter service.

 

[Nym]

I think 80x would be very suitable indeed. (Must...not...mention...the...se.....aaarghhh! )[1]

But if there is no other company bidding the price could be outrageous.

[1] Actually thinking of the only major problem with said units, Abellio have a history on all their recently awarded TOCs of not choosing the cheapest of the cheap - might they be the ones to get a different seat certified for 125mph, such as the FISA LEAN maybe?

No, please no, they're horrible units...

Leaky, gas everyone inside, sickening, and they ride worse than a voyager, even on the ECML.

Not to mention the waaayyyy too narrow gangways and interior walkways, I'm not that fat but I have to lift my arms up above the seats to walk through clearly.

"Modern diesel" presumably 222s released by EMUs to Corby

From April 2022 suggests it isn't Hitachi Bi-modes as they could be delivered sooner...

Phew.

 

[High Dyke]

One would assume that means e.g. solar station lighting and heat pump based heating.

Blimey...station lights are currently being replaced at stations across Lincolnshire, maybe others too, following an incident where a lamp column fell on a member of public.

 

[anamyd]

No 170s have left Anglia as the Class 755s are yet to enter service.

what was that "offloaded" thing all about that hooverboy mentioned then...? apparently the West Midlands Railway 170s are also all available as well despite not being replaced by 196s until next year as far as I know!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not to mention the waaayyyy too narrow gangways and interior walkways, I'm not that fat but I have to lift my arms up above the seats to walk through clearly.

Class 180s will be practice for that. The aisle is narrower than my hips, the only 2+2 seated UK unit (other than the identical 175) to be so.

 

[nat67]

No 170s have left Anglia as the Class 755s are yet to enter service.

I suspect the 170's, 156's and 153's will go to Northern.

 

[43096]

I suspect the 170's, 156's and 153's will go to Northern.

Anglia 170s are earmarked for TfW.

 

[nat67]

Anglia 170s are earmarked for TfW.

Ok I am surprised as TFW have no training on them. But neither did SR with the HST's until now.

 

[Yindee8191]

what was that "offloaded" thing all about that hooverboy mentioned then...? apparently the West Midlands Railway 170s are also all available as well despite not being replaced by 196s until next year as far as I know!

Certainly some of the 170s can be replaced by 323s (or other electrics), as the Chase line is now electrified but still being run by 170s (at least when I travelled on it on Saturday).