Newcastle-Morpeth/Chathill

[TheWalrus]

Hi

Just a quick question, what stock is used on these services? I believe the Chathills are 156s but not entirely sure. What stock operates the Alnmouth-Newcastles? If they are diesels why couldn't they be switched to electric operation?

 

[142094]

Newcastle - Morpeth is normally 142s, although the occasional 156 pops up. We even had the pleasure of a 158 a couple of years ago that came from Central Trains.

Newcastle - Chathill is normally 156s, but again 142s pop up. There are only two workings each way per day that are Northern, so the rest of the services stopping at Alnmouth are EC and XC, so 91s, HSTs and Voyagers.

Main reason why the Newcastle - Chathill services cannot be electric are that the Chathill train has to go into a siding at Belford before returning south (which is unelectrified, but of course wouldn't cost that much to put some OHLE up) and they normally run through to the Metrocentre after Newcastle which again isn't wired up. Plus we'd have to find electric trains from somewhere and I don't thinnk Northern would want to move them from Manchester or Leeds.

 

[TheWalrus]

Newcastle - Morpeth is normally 142s, although the occasional 156 pops up. We even had the pleasure of a 158 a couple of years ago that came from Central Trains.

Newcastle - Chathill is normally 156s, but again 142s pop up. There are only two workings each way per day that are Northern, so the rest of the services stopping at Alnmouth are EC and XC, so 91s, HSTs and Voyagers.

Main reason why the Newcastle - Chathill services cannot be electric are that the Chathill train has to go into a siding at Belford before returning south (which is unelectrified, but of course wouldn't cost that much to put some OHLE up) and they normally run through to the Metrocentre after Newcastle which again isn't wired up. Plus we'd have to find electric trains from somewhere and I don't thinnk Northern would want to move them from Manchester or Leeds.

Kinda what I thought. If EMUs did become available would it be worth putting them on this route? Then electrify to Metro Centre and stick a turn back at Berwick to enable the Chathills to run to Berwick (only a short distance further than Belford) to accommodate onward North-bound connections and then there's also no need to electrify the Belford siding. They could also build a station at Belford like has been previously proposed, but on the mainlines to make it more worthwhile.

Do you think this makes sense?

 

[MCR247]

By extending Chathills to Berwick you would probably affect EC or XC

 

[TheWalrus]

By extending Chathills to Berwick you would probably affect EC or XC

An EMU would save a little bit of time (can't be sure how much), and couldn't they leave Newcastle a bit earlier to accommodate this?

Also it appears on Google Maps that there is already a turnback siding at Berwick, can anyone confirm this and is it electrified?

 

[thefab444]

It might be a better idea, were stock available, to run an hourly Newcastle - Edinburgh stopping service, calling at Cramlington, Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar and Musselburgh. It would have to be looped somewhere before or after Berwick though.

This would mean long distance trains would no longer need to call at Morpeth or Alnmouth (and to a certain extent Dunbar) outside of peak hours.

 

[142094]

The demand is not great on the stations north of Newcastle and south of Berwick except Cramlington, Morpeth and Alnmouth. I did the first train of the day Newcastle - Chathill and for most of the journey was the only one on board. Only one person got on for the southbound working at Chathill.

There have been plans banded around for the TW Metro to serve the MetroCentre, and also Dunston and Blaydon, although this is unlikely. If this did happen it would mean that Newcastle - MetroCentre could not be electrified. Plus during the day the Morpeth - MetroCentre shuttles are not used to a great extent anyway. Best investment would be either new DMUs or getting the the Durham Coast line electrified.

 

[TheWalrus]

Maybe a Berwick terminator instead of Chathill would be beneficial? plus you would get more because of Berwick pax. EMU would be cheaper too.

 

[sprinterguy]

I think an hourly Berwick-Newcastle EMU stopper would be a reasonable idea, to take up passengers from Morpeth and Alnmouth and replace the Morpeth-Metrocentre service. An EMU would have higher acceleration and a higher top speed than the current DMU service, so wouldn't get in the way of the fast anglo-scottish services as much as an equivalent DMU operated service would, plus there are turnback sidings at Berwick (including an electrified loop).

The Morpeth-Metrocentre shuttle could then be cut back to Newcastle-Metrocentre, and increased to half hourly (it is currently hourly right? It's so long since I've been back home to the north east that I can't remember) to give a 15 minute Newcastle-Metrocentre frequency.

I don't much fancy the idea of the Metro running through to Metrocentre via the current heavy rail route (not that it'll happen now anyway), it would interfere with the heavy rail services too much. I'd be interested to know how it was envisaged that the Metro would link into the Tyne Valley Line when this plan was mooted? Extending the Metro from St. James into Newcastle's west end on the north side of the river would be a much more sensible idea.

 

[tbtc]

I don't think you'd attract lots of Berwick passengers onto a two car 142/ 156 stopping at all Northumberland stations when there's presumably a Voyager/ HST/ 225 that does the trip a lot quicker

The hourly Berwick - Newcastle EMU sounds a good idea, if stopping only at Alnmouth/ Morpeth/ Cramlington. You could probably slot that into the existing timetable okay (especially if East Coast are running slightly fewer Edinburgh services in future), and speed the long distance trains up. HOWEVER, the problem is running a "semi fast" to Edinburgh. Lack of passing places and the tight windows into Waverley mean I can't see this happening.

 

[142094]

I think an hourly Berwick-Newcastle EMU stopper would be a reasonable idea, to take up passengers from Morpeth and Alnmouth and replace the Morpeth-Metrocentre service. An EMU would have higher acceleration and a higher top speed than the current DMU service, so wouldn't get in the way of the fast anglo-scottish services as much as an equivalent DMU operated service would, plus there are turnback sidings at Berwick (including an electrified loop).

In days gone, there used to be such as service that used the south facing bay at Berwick - a picture I've seen shows a 143 in the TWPTE colours stabled there. This could be a good idea, although as has been said people from Berwick would choose the faster EC/XC train, unless there was an incentive (such as a cheaper fare, similar to what happened when the Javelins were introduced).

The Morpeth-Metrocentre shuttle could then be cut back to Newcastle-Metrocentre, and increased to half hourly (it is currently hourly right? It's so long since I've been back home to the north east that I can't remember) to give a 15 minute Newcastle-Metrocentre frequency.

There is 2 tph Morpeth - MetroCentre, 1tph Middlesbrough - Hexham and 1tph Newcastle -Carlisle, which effectively means one every 15 minutes anyway. However you normally find the Carlisle and Middlesbrough services are packed with people going there, especially at weekends and school holidays, and the Newcastle/Morpeth-Metrocentre services are fairly lightly loaded.

I don't much fancy the idea of the Metro running through to Metrocentre via the current heavy rail route (not that it'll happen now anyway), it would interfere with the heavy rail services too much. I'd be interested to know how it was envisaged that the Metro would link into the Tyne Valley Line when this plan was mooted? Extending the Metro from St. James into Newcastle's west end on the north side of the river would be a much more sensible idea.

One of the many plans I've been told about was to run Metros (or even heavy rail again) along Scotswood Rd like it used to, use the bridge that is still there to get to Blaydon and reverse to the MetroCentre. New stations would be built at Scotswood and Elswick, and would mean that Blaydon and Dunston get more services per day. The train would then get back to either Central via Gateshead and the ECML. How it could link back into the Metro system from there would be tricky. I wouldn't think that any extension of the Metro would go past Blaydon (perhaps as far as Wylam) due to it being outside Nexus's remit.

It would be good to get the Metro into the West End of Newcastle but tunnelling would be too costly. Instead it was envisaged under Project Orpehus that tram-trains would be able to run on the surface from the west end and enter a tunnel at St James to continue the journey from there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
EDIT - there is 1tph Morpeth - MetroCentre not 2, but there is the Newcastle - MetroCentre shuttle which effectively means 4tph Newcastle - MetroCentre, although the timings do change through the day.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Best investment would be either new DMUs or getting the the Durham Coast line electrified.

This would definately open up a lot of opportunities, especially for Northern - as we suffer overcrowding often during summer and peaks. But there again, there's no rolling stock to cover!

 

[sprinterguy]

If it wasn't for the Sunderland Metro extension then electrifying the Durham coast would be a more viable option: But seeing as the Metro catenary is already in place between Sunderland and Pelaw it can never happen.

Not sure how much use electrifying the Durham coast route would be actually; if the current interconnectivity between Middlesborough, Sunderland and Hexham and Carlisle was to be retained, then the Tyne Valley line would have to be electrified as well: Seems a bit costly given the service frequency it supports.

 

[142094]

Either that or the Leamside line is reopened and electrified, to make Newcastle - Middlesbrough services go via a faster route.

 

[sprinterguy]

Either that or the Leamside line is reopened and electrified, to make Newcastle - Middlesbrough services go via a faster route.

That sounds like an attractive proposition: Newcastle-Washington-Ferryhill-Darlington-Middlesborough half hourly EMU services. Much like the old Newcastle-Saltburn service except omitting Durham and adding the Leamside route (and not being a 142!). I'd like to see SOMETHING done with the Leamside line.

Not sure how much journey time it would save, seeing as it would be routed via Darlington (unles you made use of the currently freight only Ferryhill-Teesside line, but I think running to Darlington would be a good move), but I reckon Leamside could be quite a fast route (excluding Victoria bridge) with a couple of intermediate stops.

 

[blue sabre]

If it wasn't for the Sunderland Metro extension then electrifying the Durham coast would be a more viable option: But seeing as the Metro catenary is already in place between Sunderland and Pelaw it can never happen.

Is there no way the olhe could be made double tier - with mainline voltage ohl being set higher than the existing Metro equipment? I know it would take a lot of re-engineering with regards to bridges etc, but I'd imagine there would be a way to do it?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Not even remotely possible!

Just one of many issues:
How could a pantograph reach the higher contact wire if there's something beneath it? (Have a good look at pantograph designs)

 

[blue sabre]

Not even remotely possible!

Just one of many issues:
How could a pantograph reach the higher contact wire if there's something beneath it? (Have a good look at pantograph designs)

The cabling for main line voltage is at a higher level then the ohle for hte metro system before the system's join at Pelaw junction. Obviously the trains using the upper system would only be able to follow the one path until the Metro leaves the NR tracks as any attempt to change over lines on points would lead to the ohle being fouled by the pantograph - not really an issue on that route as there are very few places/reasons to have to change other than possibly at Sunderland station.

 

[flymo]

The cabling for main line voltage is at a higher level then the ohle for hte metro system before the system's join at Pelaw junction.

eh?

Which mainline voltage are you talking about? There is no 25kv at Pelaw Junction, or any part of the Metro line from there to South Hylton, only 1500 DC Metro voltage. The nearest 'mainline' voltage would be at the south end of the High Level Bridge at Gateshead.

 

[Doorslammer]

The cabling for main line voltage is at a higher level then the ohle for hte metro system before the system's join at Pelaw junction. Obviously the trains using the upper system would only be able to follow the one path until the Metro leaves the NR tracks as any attempt to change over lines on points would lead to the ohle being fouled by the pantograph - not really an issue on that route as there are very few places/reasons to have to change other than possibly at Sunderland station.

This has got to be the silliest thing I've ever read since I seen the bloke who tried to put sand in his car's fuel tank to "port and polish" the cylinder head.

 

[jopsuk]

Is there no way the olhe could be made double tier - with mainline voltage ohl being set higher than the existing Metro equipment? I know it would take a lot of re-engineering with regards to bridges etc, but I'd imagine there would be a way to do it?

Different to how you envisage, but yes: there is a way to do it.

It would require a fundamental rengineering of the metro cars however, and I don't know how compatible it would be with fast running lines.

 

[sprinterguy]

Different to how you envisage, but yes: there is a way to do it.

It would require a fundamental rengineering of the metro cars however, and I don't know how compatible it would be with fast running lines.

Wow, that's quite an interesting set up. Looks like it would be exceedingly complex to set up over the 9 miles (or however much it is) of shared Metro/heavy rail route. I can envisage a lot of problems with potential pantograph dewirements and entanglements, I've never seen anything like that before!

More workable than two-tier OHLE I think though

 

[jopsuk]

There's only a few miles of shared above-ground track, then the rest (into the main terminal) is underground using the rails. Not sure how the junction works!

 

[sprinterguy]

Aware that this is going off topic a tad, but this is interesting:

So does the shared above-ground section use two wires at different voltages running side by side then? I would think that having to suspend a rail from the usual overhead masts would be a bit unfeasible.

I imagine that pantogrpahs would have to be lowered when traversing crossovers or junctions, and the train would "coast" through the section just on momentum, unless there is some sort of ingenious arrangement of points for the overhead!

 

[142094]

That sounds like an attractive proposition: Newcastle-Washington-Ferryhill-Darlington-Middlesborough half hourly EMU services. Much like the old Newcastle-Saltburn service except omitting Durham and adding the Leamside route (and not being a 142!). I'd like to see SOMETHING done with the Leamside line.

Not sure how much journey time it would save, seeing as it would be routed via Darlington (unles you made use of the currently freight only Ferryhill-Teesside line, but I think running to Darlington would be a good move), but I reckon Leamside could be quite a fast route (excluding Victoria bridge) with a couple of intermediate stops.

One of the plans in the Teesside LTP and Durham County Council's LTP is for the use of the Stillington Branch from Ferryhill to get to Middlesbrough. If it was routed via Darlington, there is also the plan for extra platforms where the avoiding lines are. It would probably also be feasible for something like a circular route Newcastle - Washington - Darlington - Durham - Newcastle, which would bring extra capacity (needed especially in mornings and evenings).

I agree that the double OHLE looks interesting, but I suspect that if there were any plans for the Durham Coast line to be electrified these will be in the bin since the Metro got extended. Best thing now would be to get faster line speeds and faster diesels.

 

[jopsuk]

Aware that this is going off topic a tad, but this is interesting:

So does the shared above-ground section use two wires at different voltages running side by side then? I would think that having to suspend a rail from the usual overhead masts would be a bit unfeasible.

I imagine that pantogrpahs would have to be lowered when traversing crossovers or junctions, and the train would "coast" through the section just on momentum, unless there is some sort of ingenious arrangement of points for the overhead!

Sorry, I really don't know. I've tried to find more on the internet, but my german is non-existant. The units with the "side" pantographs are fantastically odd looking though- I assume they can never, ever be turned around!

 

[sprinterguy]

One of the plans in the Teesside LTP and Durham County Council's LTP is for the use of the Stillington Branch from Ferryhill to get to Middlesbrough. If it was routed via Darlington, there is also the plan for extra platforms where the avoiding lines are. It would probably also be feasible for something like a circular route Newcastle - Washington - Darlington - Durham - Newcastle, which would bring extra capacity (needed especially in mornings and evenings).

I agree that the double OHLE looks interesting, but I suspect that if there were any plans for the Durham Coast line to be electrified these will be in the bin since the Metro got extended. Best thing now would be to get faster line speeds and faster diesels.

Yeah I've heard about plans to build extra Darlington platforms where the avoiding lines are: Depending on how it was done, there's still scope to retain the avoiding lines in one form or another. It would be useful for something like a Leamside electric service. A circular service with a Durham arm would be a bright idea.

I agree that upgrading line speed, particularly on the Seaham-Stockton stretch would be the best bet for the Durham Coast, seeing as electrification is off the cards. And it would be a pleasant change to see brand new 3-car 172 Turbostars operating the long distance services (Not that it'll ever happen). A half hourly Middlesborough-Newcastle frequency would be nice as well.
Opening the Metro to Sunderland really ruined the prospects of the Durham Coast route as a whole. I'm not at all sure I prefer the Metro to the old Sunderland-Newcastle 15 minute frequency there was before either. Even if Fellgate station had still opened, but as a heavy rail station, I bet the journey time would still have been quicker from my local station, Seaburn, to Newcastle by heavy rail than Metro.

Sorry, I really don't know. I've tried to find more on the internet, but my german is non-existant. The units with the "side" pantographs are fantastically odd looking though- I assume they can never, ever be turned around!

Fair enough, my German is completely absent as well: I studied French at school, and even my knowledge of that is negligible these days! I think I'll have to track down a photo of these "side pantograph" trains.

 

[jopsuk]

Fair enough, my German is completely absent as well: I studied French at school, and even my knowledge of that is negligible these days! I think I'll have to track down a photo of these "side pantograph" trains.

Here's a good start!
Edit: from what I've found, apparently next year they'll be starting to get dual-voltage sets, with an eye to going AC and removing the odd arrangement. A shame!

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

I'm sure I've heard somewhere that any new metrocars will be dual voltage 1500VDC and 25kVAC to allow for the Durham coast line to be electrified...

 

[sprinterguy]

I'm sure I've heard somewhere that any new metrocars will be dual voltage 1500VDC and 25kVAC to allow for the Durham coast line to be electrified...

*Jaw drops* Well if that's the case that's surely going to push up the cost of replacement rolling stock in 10 years time!

Here's a good start!
Edit: from what I've found, apparently next year they'll be starting to get dual-voltage sets, with an eye to going AC and removing the odd arrangement. A shame!

Hmm yeah that is an interesting arrangement...A sideways pantograph. And true, the trains must never be able to be turned! Shame they're getting rid of that rare arrangement, I suppose it makes a lot of sense operationally though.