Newcastle-Morpeth/Chathill

[jopsuk]

With much improved insulators and more knowledge on what gaps can be handled without sparks, would 25kV throughout the Metro be out of the question? And would "conventional" stock fit, or are there weak bridges/steep gradiants/sharp corners that would mean it would have to be light rail cars?

 

[sprinterguy]

With much improved insulators and more knowledge on what gaps can be handled without sparks, would 25kV throughout the Metro be out of the question? And would "conventional" stock fit, or are there weak bridges/steep gradiants/sharp corners that would mean it would have to be light rail cars?

Most of the Metro network is built on former heavy rail routes that were converted for Metro use, so there should be no problems with using conventional stock on the network: EXCEPT for the tunnels under Gateshead and Newcastle, which were built specifically for the Metro so I have a feeling that they are only suitable for use by the Metrocars. I'm not entirely convinced that all of the trackwork is up to the standard necessary to be traversed by heavy rail vehicles either.

I can't see why the whole network couldn't be converted to 25kV AC, although it would be an expensive refit programme.

EDIT: I should also add that train lengths would be limited to a MAXIMUM of three carriages, as that is roughly the length of even the longest of the Metro platforms (Barring the few surviving original platforms at the likes of Whitley Bay). So I think that despite most of the alignment being suitable for use by heavy rail services, there would still be quite a few complications that make it unlikely.

 

[blue sabre]

This has got to be the silliest thing I've ever read since I seen the bloke who tried to put sand in his car's fuel tank to "port and polish" the cylinder head.

Well clearly the designers is Switzerland don't agree with that. Whilst not quite achieved in the way I described it it is possible to run dual ohle over the same section of track.
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Most of the Metro network is built on former heavy rail routes that were converted for Metro use, so there should be no problems with using conventional stock on the network: EXCEPT for the tunnels under Gateshead and Newcastle, which were built specifically for the Metro so I have a feeling that they are only suitable for use by the Metrocars. I'm not entirely convinced that all of the trackwork is up to the standard necessary to be traversed by heavy rail vehicles either.

I can't see why the whole network couldn't be converted to 25kV AC, although it would be an expensive refit programme.

EDIT: I should also add that train lengths would be limited to a MAXIMUM of three carriages, as that is roughly the length of even the longest of the Metro platforms (Barring the few surviving original platforms at the likes of Whitley Bay). So I think that despite most of the alignment being suitable for use by heavy rail services, there would still be quite a few complications that make it unlikely.

When the idea of Metro was first envisaged, weren't BR wanting to run it with 25kv OHLE?

 

[142094]

I'm sure I've heard somewhere that any new metrocars will be dual voltage 1500VDC and 25kVAC to allow for the Durham coast line to be electrified...

I've never heard that, the only replacement I've heard details about is the tram-train type mentioned as part of Project Orpheus. Still though any new stock should be looked at as compatible with the normal UK OHLE and the Metro ones converted where necessary.

Most of the Metro network is built on former heavy rail routes that were converted for Metro use, so there should be no problems with using conventional stock on the network: EXCEPT for the tunnels under Gateshead and Newcastle, which were built specifically for the Metro so I have a feeling that they are only suitable for use by the Metrocars. I'm not entirely convinced that all of the trackwork is up to the standard necessary to be traversed by heavy rail vehicles either.

I can't see why the whole network couldn't be converted to 25kV AC, although it would be an expensive refit programme.

EDIT: I should also add that train lengths would be limited to a MAXIMUM of three carriages, as that is roughly the length of even the longest of the Metro platforms (Barring the few surviving original platforms at the likes of Whitley Bay). So I think that despite most of the alignment being suitable for use by heavy rail services, there would still be quite a few complications that make it unlikely.

The tunnels would be a problem, even the Tamper they use on the system had to be specially ordered in a smaller size to get the necessary clearance.

The underground station platforms were all built with extra room for another carriage, which was good thinking at the time as we'll probably need the room in a few years time. However means that some of the other above ground stations would need lengthening or even selective door opening on new trains.

 

[blue sabre]

The underground station platforms were all built with extra room for another carriage, which was good thinking at the time as we'll probably need the room in a few years time. However means that some of the other above ground stations would need lengthening or even selective door opening on new trains.

Is there any reason that the platforms at Haymarket are so much longer than elsewhere?

 

[142094]

The only thing I can think of is that when the first services started they ran from Haymarket to Tynemouth, so could be due to the need for extra room to get more sets in. Apart from that I'm not sure.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there any reason that the platforms at Haymarket are so much longer than elsewhere?

AIUI all the underground new construction station tunnels had structural headwalls far enough apart for 3 unit (6 car) trains.

The platforms are only fitted out over 2/3 of their actual length, the end bulkheads are fairly lightweight partitions.

 

[142094]

Haymarket is much longer than this, you could probably get a 8 car in at a push

 

[flymo]

Only the OUT platform at Haymarket is unusually long, not the IN platform. I recall it is as long as it is because of the lift shaft that comes down from the concourse level and this was the only way to fit in a lift due to the position of the concourse and platforms. If you walk down the Monument end of the OUT platform you can only access the lift, you cannot cross platforms or get out any other way.

 

[142094]

Only the OUT platform at Haymarket is unusually long, not the IN platform. I recall it is as long as it is because of the lift shaft that comes down from the concourse level and this was the only way to fit in a lift due to the position of the concourse and platforms. If you walk down the Monument end of the OUT platform you can only access the lift, you cannot cross platforms or get out any other way.

That actually makes quite a lot of sense - just looked at my line diagram and indeed platform 2 is longer.

 

[O L Leigh]

Meanwhile, back at the topic...

I can't see any benefit under the current arrangements for Northern to operate an EMU service north of Newcastle. Northern is primarily a DMU operator and, apart from this particular route, all of their services run out from under the wires. It may not be the most efficient use of their fleet to run a 75mph DMU under the wires to collect punters from places like Chathill and Morpeth, but it is the only realistic option they have. Providing an EMU service would mean either maintaining a tiny electric fleet at Heaton (probably just two units, one in service and one as a standby/maintenance spare) at some not inconsiderable cost, or pinching units from Neville Hill with associated long ECS moves. It wouldn't even assist in strengthening Northern's current diesel services, as I suspect that the requirement is for just one DMU which possibly works to other destinations away from the wires as part of the same diagram anyway.

Assuming no further electrification in the region, the best current option for an electric service would be for it to be operated by FScR using either Cl322, Cl334 or even Cl380 EMU's as an extension of the existing North Berwick service. FScR are an existing operator of EMU's and have both a sufficiently large fleet and are adequately provided with convenient servicing locations.

O L Leigh

 

[tbtc]

Assuming no further electrification in the region, the best current option for an electric service would be for it to be operated by FScR using either Cl322, Cl334 or even Cl380 EMU's as an extension of the existing North Berwick service

Extending the North Berwick service?

 

[142094]

AFAIK Heaton doesn't maintain any EMUs, so if they were brought up here either they'd have to move some people in from Leeds/Manchester, or have units go south and dragged (unless they went via Doncaster) for maintenance, so this seems to be a big barrier to any electrics running Newcastle - Morpeth - Chathill.

 

[jopsuk]

Aye- bit difficult to "extend" the North Berwick service- a new service, perhaps limited stop out to Drem, would be required.

 

[O L Leigh]

Extending the North Berwick service?

Yes I know North Berwick is at the end of a branch off the ECML, but you get the idea.

Northern are not set up to operate a single electric service this far north of their usual electric base, but FScR are. However, it wouldn't be possible without somehow linking Edinburgh and Newcastle with some manner of "local" service.

O L Leigh

 

[dubscottie]

Extending the North Berwick service?

That was the plan!

I bought a load of secondhand Railway magazines from 1989-1993 for research for my model railway, And in more than one of them, It stated that one of the North Berwick pool of 5 Emu's (class 307 then changed to Class 305) was to be used on the peak Newcastle - Berwick turns.

That was when they still ran. (Using a class 143 or 142)

I think the stoppers stopped upon electrification.