No Eurostar to Amsterdam for almost a year

[zwk500]

I am perfectly aware of the reasons for it and know that it can’t change - but, what an utter waste. And no surprise that E* struggles with offering cheaper tickets.

Hopefully when they get the final terminal in Amsterdam long term they can run full trains from the start.

 

[Mainline421]

I am perfectly aware of the reasons for it and know that it can’t change - but, what an utter waste. And no surprise that E* struggles with offering cheaper tickets.

In 2020 they sold tickets and carried passengers for Amsterdam to Brussels in the other half of the train.

 

[DanielB]

In 2020 they sold tickets and carried passengers for Amsterdam to Brussels in the other half of the train.

Yes, they did that in the past but temporarily suspended it during COVID. After the temporary suspension it was permanently cancelled as this allowed for a shorter stop in Brussels and thus a shorter journey to London.
When I recall correctly the intra-Schengen half of the train was actually hardly used, which made the decision to suspend it easier.

 

[Austriantrain]

In 2020 they sold tickets and carried passengers for Amsterdam to Brussels in the other half of the train.

I know, but the restrictions entailed with it (namely an extremely long stop in Brussels) meant that wouldn’t work either.

When I recall correctly the intra-Schengen half of the train was actually hardly used, which made the decision to suspend it easier.

Which would not be the case now anymore I suppose, since it would be sold on the same platform as the „ex-Thalys“ service.

Still, you can’t offer an attractive journey time with such a long stop.

 

[Taunton]

It has, actually. Morning departures from St. Pancras are limited to around 600 passengers.

This in conjunction with abandoning Ebbsfleet I find strange. I see it said that staff are more productive at St Pancras than Ebbsfleet, but presumably they are going on their 2019 experience when this was significantly because Ebbsfleet was grossly overstaffed for the numbers, and frequency, using it. It must be more straightforward to recruit staff in Medway than in inner London, and if trains are having to run part empty because of St Pancras overcrowding it just doesn't equate with then closing their second London area stop.

 

[zwk500]

This in conjunction with abandoning Ebbsfleet I find strange. I see it said that staff are more productive at St Pancras than Ebbsfleet, but presumably they are going on their 2019 experience when this was significantly because Ebbsfleet was grossly overstaffed for the numbers, and frequency, using it. It must be more straightforward to recruit staff in Medway than in inner London, and if trains are having to run part empty because of St Pancras overcrowding it just doesn't equate with then closing their second London area stop.

They have to restrict capacity by about one third for a couple of departures to each destination. Once the morning rush is done they can sell the rest of the departures full from London. That more than makes up for not having to staff and maintain Ebbsfleet.

 

[Mainline421]

Yes, they did that in the past but temporarily suspended it during COVID. After the temporary suspension it was permanently cancelled as this allowed for a shorter stop in Brussels and thus a shorter journey to London.
When I recall correctly the intra-Schengen half of the train was actually hardly used, which made the decision to suspend it easier.

The through trains to London and consequent partitioning of the train like that also started during the height of Covid, so not the reason for the suspension.

It seems like it would make more sense to temporarily revert to the 2019 method of operation with through trains to Amsterdam and Rotterdam though. For the return Rotterdam can even keep it's through service in the front portion, and the rear portion could be sold as a regular Thalys from Amsterdam and Schipol to Brussels. Would definitely help E* retain their share of market in the long term.

 

[zwk500]

It seems like it would make more sense to temporarily revert to the 2019 method of operation with through trains to Amsterdam and Rotterdam though. For the return Rotterdam can even keep it's through service in the front portion, and the rear portion could be sold as a regular Thalys from Amsterdam and Schipol to Brussels. Would definitely help E* retain their share of market in the long term.

While this might be the better solution it doesn't address the depot problem discussed above.

 

[DanielB]

While this might be the better solution it doesn't address the depot problem discussed above.

When the train doesn't need to be security cleared, it probably won't need a ban on reversing. That would allow using another yard for cleaning, provided tracks and cleaning platforms are long enough for a Eurostar set.

 

[zwk500]

When the train doesn't need to be security cleared, it probably won't need a ban on reversing. That would allow using another yard for cleaning, provided tracks and cleaning platforms are long enough for a Eurostar set.

Is there another yard with 400m tracks that can accept a Eurostar set or two overnight?

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Eurostar's letter earlier this year seemed to imply that the London departure restriction is ultimately because of the need for the French Border Police (PAF) to stamp all non-EU passports on entry to the Schengen zone. If they have insufficient staff on dutry, queues mount up quickly and block the security check area as well. Once people start missing their trains in consequence, delays can build up throughout the day. So the idea is to limit the number tickets sold on the earlier trains to head-off problems arising.

Respondents: please also note that the two Governments impose a security regime under which all baggage has to be screened. This is nothing to do with Schengen/Brexit etc. etc. So the departure areas in NL are needed for this purpose as well.

The ES trains were little used intra-Schengen between Amsterdam and Brussels, but the service was hardly marketed. Clearly there is some demand, currently packed onto the Thalys trains at present as well as the hourly IC trains via Breda (which often run fairly full)....

 

[Citybreak1]

Are we expecting an announcement today says they are trying to rescue the service? I’ve been to Amsterdam once where is Zuid compared to the existing station?

Also 2036 seems a while to wait to move?

 

[scragend]

I’ve been to Amsterdam once where is Zuid compared to the existing station?

It's to the south

Amsterdam-Zuid is in the business district of Amsterdam. So arguably better placed for Eurostar depending on what their target market is (business/tourists).

That's not an argument I want to get into btw...

 

[dutchflyer]

Well, there were for some time definite plans to move all INTERNational train workings for AMS to that South station ((even before it got its direct metroline via the centre) but these seem to have been quietly shelved in the attic of lost ideas.
I would assume that there must have been weeks long serious consideration of all possible alternatives and for whatever reason were found unrealistic or impractic. Nonetheless a day-or 2- ago dutch parliament again asked for a thorough search if it stil could not be done.

 

[zwk500]

Well, there were for some time definite plans to move all INTERNational train workings for AMS to that South station ((even before it got its direct metroline via the centre) but these seem to have been quietly shelved in the attic of lost ideas.
I would assume that there must have been weeks long serious consideration of all possible alternatives and for whatever reason were found unrealistic or impractic. Nonetheless a day-or 2- ago dutch parliament again asked for a thorough search if it stil could not be done.

There was an article in the NL Times today that had conflicting views: https://nltimes.nl/2023/06/06/eurostar-hopeful-keeping-amsterdam-london-high-speed-train-running

Eurostar said they're convinced a solution can be found, Prorail said 'nothing fundamental has changed'. Also relevant was this part:

According to Eurostar, the alternative of diverting to Rotterdam Central Station is impossible. The carrier called that option commercially unprofitable because too few passengers can board there.

If the parties involved manage to find a way to keep the Eurostar train in Amsterdam, they’ll have to do so in the coming months. Eurostar usually sells its tickets for the summer period nine months in advance. “We must, therefore, have clarity by the end of this year,” a Eurostar spokesperson told the newspaper.

The Amsterdam Regional Council for Transport was scheduled to meet this week to discuss a motion by the PvdA, GroenLinks, and D66 to ensure the Amsterdam-London train can continue running despite the renovations at Amsterdam Central Station. That meeting, which was to be chaired by traffic alderman Melanie van der Horst, was canceled for unknown reasons.

It would seem that certain parties (Including Eurostar themselves, who obviously see a lot of financial potential in the route) are pressing hard for a solution, although how realistic that is I don't know. However there does appear to be some foot-dragging. Our Dutch colleagues will have a far better sense of attitudes towards E* in NL politics than I do.

 

[DanielB]

Well, there were for some time definite plans to move all INTERNational train workings for AMS to that South station ((even before it got its direct metroline via the centre) but these seem to have been quietly shelved in the attic of lost ideas.

No, the main problem is that the Zuidasdok project is delayed by many years after a failed tender for the construction. And before it is feasible to move international trains to Zuid an additional platform is required.

Our Dutch colleagues will have a far better sense of attitudes towards E* in NL politics than I do.

It was in the news recently that NS and Eurostar where positive about a solution allowing Eurostar to continue to run from the existing terminal.
In that approach it would only need to be cancelled a few weeks (instead of months) during actual ongoing works. But ProRail was against and managed to talk into NS to agree with their approach.

Is there another yard with 400m tracks that can accept a Eurostar set or two overnight?

I suppose the tracks at the new Westhaven yard are long enough, as they also clean the long Nightjet consists there now. But have no idea if capacity is sufficient there.

 

[rvdborgt]

Well, there were for some time definite plans to move all INTERNational train workings for AMS to that South station ((even before it got its direct metroline via the centre) but these seem to have been quietly shelved in the attic of lost ideas.

They're not. The decision was taken (purely on financial grounds) and has not changed since. It's just that execution takes a lot more time.
I'd be interested in any indications you can point out that would suggest otherwise, but I'm not aware of any.

 

[Beachcomber]

I suppose the tracks at the new Westhaven yard are long enough, as they also clean the long Nightjet consists there now. But have no idea if capacity is sufficient there.

Westhaven yard is large enough, but not the "high security" facility required by the UK partners. Watergraafsmeer yard was adapted specifically for Eurostar.

My feeling is that the issue is/will become highly political and that the Ministry will be forced to "ask" ProRail to find a solution. The recent 12-hour break-down of all signalling in the wide Amsterdam area - although unrelated - will not have strengthened ProRail's credibility.

No, the main problem is that the Zuidasdok project is delayed by many years after a failed tender for the construction. And before it is feasible to move international trains to Zuid an additional platform is required.

To clarify for those interested: the stations at Zuid (rail and metro) are in the centre reservation of the (very busy) Ring motorway. It has been decided to bring the road underground, both for environmental reasons, and for the ongoing development of the valuable "Zuidas" area. It is this complicated road tunnel project - to be constructed with minimal disruption of road and rail traffic - that has been delayed. This blocks the area needed for the extra platform and the secure area around the Eurostar terminal.

The rerouting of all international traffic and east-west domestic Intercity's through Amsterdam Zuid remains the ultimate goal.

 

[kevin_roche]

At least it isn't happening before my trip next month.

 

[DanielB]

Westhaven yard is large enough, but not the "high security" facility required by the UK partners. Watergraafsmeer yard was adapted specifically for Eurostar.

But I suggested that yard only in a discussion on options for running non security swept to Brussels and checking train and passengers there.

My feeling is that the issue is/will become highly political and that the Ministry will be forced to "ask" ProRail to find a solution. The recent 12-hour brake-down of all signalling in the wide Amsterdam area - although unrelated - will not have strengthened ProRail's credibility.

OT: Amsterdam's signalling failure is not even fixed yet. The signallers are still in the backup control room in Utrecht (which is now used for the first time in 10 years).

The rerouting of all international traffic and east-west domestic Intercity's through Amsterdam Zuid remains the ultimate goal.

Further clarified: all through Intercities on the east - west corridor already run through Zuid. It's the services terminating at Centraal that will be moved to Zuid.
With east-west being the corridors from Almere and Amersfoort. Nijmegen - Den Helder technically is also east-west, but those will remain running through Centraal.

 

[387star]

Heartbreaking
I travelled on this excellent service last week. Bang on time both ways and very convenient.

 

[Teebs]

It looks like speculation about political pressure may have been accurate, hopefully something will come of this.

Government now trying to keep Eurostar in Amsterdam after intense criticism

State Secretary Viviann Heijnen of Infrastructure will try to keep the Eurostar high-speed train between Amsterdam and London running during renovations to Amsterdam Central Station next year. She said this on Tuesday after meeting with Eurostar CEO Gwendoline Cazenave and after severe criticism...

nltimes.nl

 

[zwk500]

It looks like speculation about political pressure may have been accurate, hopefully something will come of this.

Government now trying to keep Eurostar in Amsterdam after intense criticism

State Secretary Viviann Heijnen of Infrastructure will try to keep the Eurostar high-speed train between Amsterdam and London running during renovations to Amsterdam Central Station next year. She said this on Tuesday after meeting with Eurostar CEO Gwendoline Cazenave and after severe criticism...

nltimes.nl

A lot of pressure but I'd not be hopeful of the suggested solution of keeping the current terminal in use while all around it is a construction site. Mind you, given a temporary terminal was judged unfeasible and the new terminal won't be ready for a year, that does seem the only option to keep Eurostar in the city.

 

[popeter45]

A lot of pressure but I'd not be hopeful of the suggested solution of keeping the current terminal in use while all around it is a construction site. Mind you, given a temporary terminal was judged unfeasible and the new terminal won't be ready for a year, that does seem the only option to keep Eurostar in the city.

always the nuclear option of postponing the bridge work till new checkin is ready but no idea if thats possible

 

[zwk500]

always the nuclear option of postponing the bridge work till new checkin is ready but no idea if thats possible

That would knock the entire programme back, from the sounds of it. Given this is part of a fairly major reconfiguration of Amsterdam's (and by extension much of the Netherlands's) train services I don't see Eurostar trumping that. Providing a corridor along the back of the platform hoarded off from the construction side should be feasible, if undesirable though. It'll come down to the compromise between how disruptive to the works maintaining access would be, and is that worth the benefit of maintaining E* in Amsterdam.

 

[zwk500]

(will automerge)

Reports in Dutch Press that a solution has been found for the majority of the time period to allow Eurostar to continue serving. Not sure if this is the same solution that was proposed ages ago and is just being refloated or if it's actually getting somewhere within NS.

Solution in sight for London-Amsterdam Eurostar train services - DutchNews.nl

Direct train services between Amsterdam and London will be able to continue for most of the period when platforms are closed because of major engineering works, the AD reported on Friday. A Swiss engineering company has come up with a solution which means the route will not be shut down for up...

www.dutchnews.nl

 

[DovaModaal]

Not NS but Prorail are responsible for the track infrastructure. NS is the train company that drives the Eurostar trains in the Netherlands.

It is real new news, but the details and the shorter time period will be communicated at the end of the month.

 

[Bemined]

If only it was that simple. The terminal is owned by the NS, but is currently located on ProRail ground. The new terminal will be located on NS ground, but the stairs to the platform are still owned by ProRail.

 

[AlbertBeale]

But I suggested that yard only in a discussion on options for running non security swept to Brussels and checking train and passengers there.

OT: Amsterdam's signalling failure is not even fixed yet. The signallers are still in the backup control room in Utrecht (which is now used for the first time in 10 years).

Further clarified: all through Intercities on the east - west corridor already run through Zuid. It's the services terminating at Centraal that will be moved to Zuid.
With east-west being the corridors from Almere and Amersfoort. Nijmegen - Den Helder technically is also east-west, but those will remain running through Centraal.

I'm a bit confused about the apparent lack of capacity at Centraal, if most east-west through services, and all terminating services, are going to Zuid. So what's going to go to Centraal then, just a minority of through trains?

 

[DanielB]

I'm a bit confused about the apparent lack of capacity at Centraal, if most east-west through services, and all terminating services, are going to Zuid. So what's going to go to Centraal then, just a minority of through trains?

You'll still have the trough services from Utrecht towards Zaandam (both Sprinter and IC) which is one of the corridors with a train every 10 minutes. Besides that there will still be Sprinter services towards Almere and both Sprinter and IC services towards Haarlem. And obviously the airport Sprinters towards Schiphol Airport. But that's only when all plans have been implemented so at this moment there is stil an intermediate situatiion with more trains at Centraal.

Capacity will also be reduced due to reconstruction of the stations and tracks leading in to it. Widening the narrow platforms will eliminate most of the trough tracks without platforms, practically also reducing capacity as currently trains use those tracks to pass other trains to enable multiple trains using the long platforms simultaniously.
And don't forget that Amsterdam Centraal has actually very little platforms: only 11 for the second-busiest station, with platform 1 only being useable towards Haarlem for relatively short trains and 15 dissappearing eventually reducing it to 10 platforms.
In contrast: the busiest station in the Netherlands (Utrecht Central) has 16 platforms.