No trains to call at Altnabreac for the foreseeable future

[Dai Corner]

What confuses me here is that, even if they do "own the platform"; as Altnabrec is a station at which trains do/should call, do they then have to maintain the platform in the same way NR and other owners of platforms on private land would have to?

That's a good point. If they were responsible for maintenance but didn't do so satisfactorily ScotRail would have to stop calling there which would inconvenience them more than anyone else.

 

[alxndr]

While I’m in no means on the side of the cottage owners, there does seem to be a bit of discrepancy between what Network Rail thought they owned in 2016 and what the land registry says now.

I found this site who mapped data obtained from Network Rail via a FOI request in 2016. They’ve also mapped “other government” data in the Altnabreac region but I can’t find a way of seeing who this actually is. Plus also there could have been changes in the last 8 years, but interesting nonetheless.

Their mapping isn’t very good as it doesn’t show many features, but I’ve overlaid it on the ScotGIS maps which does show some differences:
- The section along the south-west edge bounded by the red box but not coloured pink shows as being Network Rail.
- The section along the north-east edge under dispute by the track is shown as being both Network Rail and “other government”.

 

[Stathern Jc]

Sometimes I wonder whether the owners of Station Cottage have ever been approached by one of those "helpful" legal organisations offering a "No Win - No Fee" service to establish a Wayleave (or Scottish equivalent) agreement to allow access to the station for maintenance etc.
I imagine that the owners of many parcels of land will have had such an approach to extract a fee (less their commission) from Network Rail.

Such an outfit could save the owners of Station Cottage the need to rely on a "Go Fund Me" appeal, and if they were to say something on the lines of "Sod off, we ain't touching that!", then that would give them a pretty clear indication that they were flogging a dead horse for minimal outlay. Simple?

I regularly receive such offers from a couple of these organisations telling me that there is a power cable in my garden. I wasn't aware that there was and for about 30 years I've dug up my potatoes and lived to eat them, so I don't really care and send each the other's uncompleted form in their prepaid envelopes.
Ah, the childish satisfaction from the days before junk mail came electronically!

 

[Elwyn]

I don’t think the owners of Station House own the platform. If they did (which I think would be surprising), it would have come with legal requirements in respect of access, maintenance etc which they would have surely been aware of when they bought the property. I have not seen mention of that never mind convincing evidence of ownership of the platform (and other disputed areas).

I think the owners of Station House may not really understand precisely what they do own. If uncertain, they need good legal advice. Urgently. And they also need to discuss the likely success of their reported proposed litigation claims. It might bankrupt them and they might lose their home. Their legal advisor will be best placed to guide them.

The owners appear to be restricted financially, hence presumably their crowdfunding appeal, so all the more important they get good advice. They probably can’t afford a large costs award .

Some replies on this board suggest to me that the owners of Station House might monitor it. If they are reading this (and I suspect they do), I would just say that most members here would probably just like to see the station reopened for passengers soon and for you not to forfeit your home. That’s achievable with a bit of tact. Can you do that? Discuss with your legal advisor. This can be resolved without a major row or court case and with reduced costs for you. (I think).

Also, since you don’t apparently have a car, a resumed train service will make it much easier for you to get to Court in Inverness. You might find that helpful. And your Highland Railcard may get you a reduced fare (if still valid of course).

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is what's so bizarre about it. They want a train service. So why risk that train service (and huge costs) over a few quid you could charge to Network Rail for access, when in all likelihood if such a charge was found to be legal (and it very much seems like it isn't, but if it was) then NR would presumably just close the station as the tiny usage would render it not worth it?

It would make a bit of sense if their aim was closure, but it isn't?

 

[Elwyn]

I live in rural Northern Ireland and the legal arrangements here may well not be comparable with Altnabreac, but I have a neighbour who has 2 telegraph poles in his fields for which he gets about £115 a year. That seems to me to give a sense of the potential sums involved in a minor access dispute involving a station with a few hundred passengers a year. No-one is going to make much money here about access paths, and so on, save for the lawyers.

To the owners of Station House my advice is to use your crowdfunding money to get good legal advice from a reputable solicitor in Inverness, Wick or wherever. If the advice is that your prospects of legal success are low, settle the matter promptly and then live your life in peace (which is presumably why you went to Altnabreac). Tell NR and let them re-open the station.

There will surely be a big surge of passengers on re-opening day. It’s been reported that you are very friendly. There are apparently no public catering facilities within 30 miles. Make money from that. Perhaps you can welcome them with Altnabreac Venison Burgers & Ice Cream?

 

[Recessio]

I'm just observing that NR's map of property holdings appears to differ from the RoS title plan wrt to Station Cottage. The NR version seems more cut-and-dried about the ownership of the access track past SC than the RoS title plan. I wondered what NR base their plan on and what veracity it has. I appreciate it can't be definitive (in fact neither version appears to be definitive in the case of a dispute).

I can't comment on the specifics of this case, but I think I recall a few cases where NRs plans (inherited from Railtrack) were slightly wrong, probably rushed during privatisation. When BRB Residuary was abolished, a few segments of operational land were transferred to NR, that really should have been transferred to Railtrack in the first place but for some reason we're technically still BRBR land (although I may be wrong about this though, trying to recall something I probably read on here years ago!)

But the point is, it's not outside the realm of possibility that NRs map is wrong as it has been in the past. However I doubt it would be wrong to the extent of getting ownership of the platforms completely wrong.

 

[norbitonflyer]

While I’m in no means on the side of the cottage owners, there does seem to be a bit of discrepancy between what Network Rail thought they owned in 2016 and what the land registry says now.

I found this site who mapped data obtained from Network Rail via a FOI request in 2016. They’ve also mapped “other government” data in the Altnabreac region but I can’t find a way of seeing who this actually is. Plus also there could have been changes in the last 8 years, but interesting nonetheless.

Their mapping isn’t very good as it doesn’t show many features, but I’ve overlaid it on the ScotGIS maps which does show some differences:

What is the significance of the blue stripe running across the pink areas in those diagrams? It does not correspond to a building, but runs straight through the main house.
Neither of those diagrams are easy to relate to the situation on the ground as they do not show the buildings, to provide a reference point. This is important as the dispute seems to be about whether, as NR claim, the boundary is the edge of the building, or as the residents claim, it is a little to the north east of the building line.

 

[skyhigh]

This is what's so bizarre about it. They want a train service. So why risk that train service (and huge costs) over a few quid you could charge to Network Rail for access, when in all likelihood if such a charge was found to be legal (and it very much seems like it isn't, but if it was) then NR would presumably just close the station as the tiny usage would render it not worth it?

It would make a bit of sense if their aim was closure, but it isn't?

The bit about the crossing concerns me.

And given the apparent lack of basis in fact to their arguements it wouldn't surprise me that if the station were just closed their argument would pivot to the actual railway line being on their land...

 

[Hedge Fund]

This is what's so bizarre about it. They want a train service. So why risk that train service (and huge costs) over a few quid you could charge to Network Rail for access, when in all likelihood if such a charge was found to be legal (and it very much seems like it isn't, but if it was) then NR would presumably just close the station as the tiny usage would render it not worth it?

It would make a bit of sense if their aim was closure, but it isn't?

They have to be careful when trying to obtain that few quid from Network Rail. You can easily blow your chances.

I was reading about a few cases of NR needing access over private land to perform maintenance, and apparently the negotiations usually go this this:

NR: We need access to your land for the next 3 weeks to access the trackside, and we propose to give you £50 a day.
Landowner: No chance! I want £10k otherwise I won't let you anywhere near my land. Pay up or get lost.
NR: OK then, we will just take you to court for access and get it for free, then you'll get nothing.
Landowner: Wait! I'll let you have access for £1000!
NR: You have a deal, as thats cheaper than our legal fees would be.

Essentially, if you be silly with your demands or try to hold them to ransom, they will just ask a court to permit them access and you might not see a penny. If you are reasonable, then you might get a few quid out of them as paying the landowner a small sum saves them time and money over a trip to court.

 

[tspaul26]

What is the significance of the blue stripe running across the pink areas in those diagrams?

It denotes land subject to a real burden on the title sheet, in this case a private way reserved by an earlier disposition.

 

[BRX]

It denotes land subject to a real burden on the title sheet, in this case a private way reserved by an earlier disposition.

What does this mean in plain English?

 

[Bald Rick]

NR: We need access to your land for the next 3 weeks to access the trackside, and we propose to give you £50 a day.
Landowner: No chance! I want £10k otherwise I won't let you anywhere near my land. Pay up or get lost.
NR: OK then, we will just take you to court for access and get it for free, then you'll get nothing.
Landowner: Wait! I'll let you have access for £1000!
NR: You have a deal, as thats cheaper than our legal fees would be.

should have gone with the first offer

 

[PG]

What does this mean in plain English?

This land is yours but another party has a right of access across a part of it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What does this mean in plain English?

Legal jargon is arcanely worded (something my postings on this website have been accused of in the past.. ) and years ago, when dealing with a solicitor I used to attend secondary school with in our younger days who still has a sense of humour told me one of his comical renditions.....

Passer-by seeing a solicitor walking down the road with a lead in his hand attached to a rolled paper bound with a ribbon...."What's that at the end of the lead?"

Solicitor ...." Don't worry, I'm just exercising a lien"

 

[D6130]

Legal jargon is arcanely worded (something my postings on this website have been accused of in the past.. ) and years ago, when dealing with a solicitor I used to attend secondary school with in our younger days who still has a sense of humour told me one of his comical renditions.....

Passer-by seeing a solicitor walking down the road with a lead in his hand attached to a rolled paper bound with a ribbon...."What's that at the end of the lead?"

Solicitor ...." Don't worry, I'm just exercising a lien"

 

[BRX]

Looks to me like they are making a very basic mistake, which is that they are overlaying satellite imagery on the map that shows their boundary line, and thinking that any useful conclusion can be drawn from that composite image.

There's no guarantee that the satellite imagery and the base map for the boundary line are accurately aligned, and there's not even any guarantee that the base map is accurate. As I understand it, when determining boundaries, it's usually done relative to physical features and might be party or wholly defined by something in writing. If the red line follows a line marked on the OS base map, all it really means is that the boundary follows "some sort of physical feature approximately here" and if you are lucky, in the deeds somewhere it might identify that feature as a stone wall or a fence or whatever. Those OS base maps aren't usually accurate down to the level of the width of a track.

This has probably all already been said earlier in the thread. Only came across this thread after one of their videos popped up in my youtube feed and I was curious what the full story was.

 

[QueensCurve]

This footage was showing a BTP visit was posted on 3 September.

 

[dgl]

I wonder if the troublemakers will be required to pay Network Rail's legal fees when they inevitably win and if the bill for that might end up with the current home owners having to sell up to pay for them, in Network Rail's case it would be killing two birds with one stone.
They could also make sure no other home owners are ever unsure about their boundaries.

 

[jfowkes]

This footage was showing a BTP visit was posted on 3 September.

The description for that video says, partially, "Network Rail do NOT own ANY land at Altnabreac" - the simplest interpretation of this would be that they are claiming ownership of the station, platforms, surrounding land and possibly the trackbed.

 

[Killingworth]

The description for that video says, partially, "Network Rail do NOT own ANY land at Altnabreac" - the simplest interpretation of this would be that they are claiming ownership of the station, platforms, surrounding land and possibly the trackbed.

After watching all that I've still not heard the police get a sentence in edge ways.

 

[Bletchleyite]

After watching all that I've still not heard the police get a sentence in edge ways.

They definitely come across as one of that breed of people known as "auditors", i.e. people who gain enjoyment from winding up people of authority and then getting them in trouble if they don't comply to the letter of the rules even if they are acting totally reasonably. For instance calling out that Police Officer who had showed up without a warrant card when they knew full well who he was as he had attended and shown it before.

I thought the behaviour of the two officers was absolutely exemplary.

 

[jfowkes]

They definitely come across as one of that breed of people known as "auditors", i.e. people who gain enjoyment from winding up people of authority and then getting them in trouble if they don't comply to the letter of the rules even if they are acting totally reasonably. For instance calling out that Police Officer who had showed up without a warrant card when they knew full well who he was as he had attended and shown it before.

There's a hint of "we taught ourselves the law online and now we can be our own solicitors" about it. They know just enough to think they're experts.

If they had proper legal advice, they wouldn't be trying to DIY it, certainly not on camera.

 

[Bald Rick]

“The true triumph of reason is that it enables us to get along with those who do not possess it”

(That should be the motto for the Speculative Ideas sub forum. I might use this as my signature now…)

 

[james_the_xv]

I for one cannot wait until they get their comeuppance. This has gone far beyond a civil dispute about access and is just two crackpots who have bought a property without doing due diligence or thinking they can swindle one over on NR. F* around and find out I say

 

[Moderating team]

A related update

Altnabreac couple to stand trial at Wick – pair deny going on the rails as trains were approaching

A couple living beside a remote railway station in Caithness are alleged to have repeatedly stood on the rail track in the path of oncoming trains.

www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk

A couple living beside a remote railway station in Caithness are alleged to have repeatedly stood on the rail track in the path of oncoming trains.

Ian Appleby (48) and 49-year-old Elizabeth Howe denied the charge at Wick Sheriff Court on Tuesday, when they also pleaded not guilty to subjecting police officers to threatening or abusive behaviour.

 

[MrJeeves]

From 6 April onwards, it appears ScotRail have re-inserted timetabled passenger calls at Altnabreac.

This ties in conveniently to the couple's recent appearance in court, where they were "granted bail with a condition banning them from the crossing and the rail track."

ScotRail/Network Rail may be trying to show that the couple are the sole reason which they have not been calling at the station.

Highland pair in court accused of endangering passengers by going on railway line

Ian Appleby, 48, and Elizabeth Howe, 49 are accused of crossing barriers onto the level crossing at Altnabreac Station, and onto the rail track while trains were approaching.

www.pressandjournal.co.uk

Ian Appleby, 48, and Elizabeth Howe, 49 are accused of crossing barriers onto the level crossing at Altnabreac Station, and onto the rail track while trains were approaching.

The pair also pleaded not guilty to subjecting police officers to threatening or abusive behaviour and so will stand trial...

 

[hexagon789]

From 6 April onwards, it appears ScotRail have re-inserted timetabled passenger calls at Altnabreac.

This ties in conveniently to the couple's recent appearance in court, where they were "granted bail with a condition banning them from the crossing and the rail track."

ScotRail/Network Rail may be trying to show that the couple are the sole reason which they have not been calling at the station.

Highland pair in court accused of endangering passengers by going on railway line

Ian Appleby, 48, and Elizabeth Howe, 49 are accused of crossing barriers onto the level crossing at Altnabreac Station, and onto the rail track while trains were approaching.

www.pressandjournal.co.uk

Someone tweeted ScotRail the other day to ask about this, and ScotRail replied to say they have no update on when services will be able to call due to a 'local dispute'.

https://x.com/davwheat_/status/1907492618457465201

The timetable was amended last night to re-add Altnabreac as a scheduled call for all services from 6 April onwards into the May timetable change. Is this an error, or is there something else afoot?

Hi, we'll look into this as haven't been advised that the station is reopening. ^Paul

 

[Adam Williams]

Someone tweeted ScotRail the other day to ask about this, and ScotRail replied to say they have no update on when services will be able to call due to a 'local dispute'.

https://x.com/davwheat_/status/1907492618457465201

Hard to know if that's just a frontline social media person who is just repeating (outdated) lines they've been given and there's more to it than this, or if it is just a screw-up with the data in the CIF.

Somebody needs to sort it out either way though, or tickets will be mis-sold.

Forum meet at Wick on Sunday?

 

[Bald Rick]

Somebody needs to sort it out either way though, or tickets will be mis-sold.

Plural?