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Northern Ad hoc cancellations

Trackman

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I don't know what was going on beyond the standard "Issue with traincrew" excuse, but Northern really need to sort themselves out.
I've been travelling in Northern land this weekend, I've seen loads of 'Issues with the train crew'.
One train I was booked on was cancelled due to this, it was showing as OK the day before - I wonder if they knew beforehand, or were there no overtime takers.
 
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RailUK Forums

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I wonder if they knew beforehand, or were there no overtime takers.

There's normally a mix of cancellations at this point, both before the day and on the day. If you go on Journey Check (https://www.journeycheck.com/northern/) later in the evening, you can usually see Northern starting to cancel a load of the next days services. I've seen the number of cancellations on there hit 200+, currently looking at it, there's 82 trains cancelled for today.
 
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Northern are desperate for staff. They've got more staff retiring and leaving than they have joining and the government/DfT are making life more difficult by not letting them hire as many new staff as they actually need.

Between the ex-TPE depots at Barrow and Blackpool they're around 30 conductors short currently (I don't know how short they are at their other depots but I can imagine it's in line with these 2).

Unless they do a TPE and cut their services.. this is going to go on for a long time. Either way, they're going to keep successfully deterring people from rail travel.
I thought there was a queue of people wanting to work on the railway, whats the wage for a guard on Northern at Barrow, I might be mad enough to consider moving up there!
 
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I thought there was a queue of people wanting to work on the railway, whats the wage for a guard on Northern at Barrow, I might be mad enough to consider moving up there!
There is, but like I said, DfT aren't letting them hire as many people as they actually need. And when they are allowed to hire (currently live vacancies at Barrow on their website if you're genuinely interested), not everyone applying will even be able to make it through the industry standard assessments and medical screenings, so the vacancies will stay unfilled, while even more existing staff retire or leave.
 

ModernRailways

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I thought there was a queue of people wanting to work on the railway, whats the wage for a guard on Northern at Barrow, I might be mad enough to consider moving up there!
One of the big issues Northern has is training capacity and like @lrailadventure says a not insignificant number of people jumping ship, or retiring. A training group for Conductors is around 2-3 months before they go off to their own local depot. I believe they can have up to 4 concurrent training groups at most on the East side, with around 12 people per group at a maximum. This is to cover all depots on the East, so from Newcastle, to Hull, Leeds, and Sheffield, I'm aware Leeds specifically is haemorrhaging staff with some trainees dropping out before they have even worked a train solo.
A shortage of conductors and a shortage of drivers ultimately leads to where we're at right now, and it's not looking like it will get better anytime soon.

Northern has the luxury of running so many services and over shorter distances that it usually just impacts local people, TPE is more an Intercity operator with fewer services and a more noticeable impact across the country when they cancel one. A local newspaper/media outlet may pick up on Northern cancelling every service to their area, Morecambe, for example, but it's only the local media that will care. TPE would get the attention of Manchester, Leeds, York, Newcastle media outlets and then ultimately the national media outlets/newspapers pick up and started reporting on it. Northern is arguably in a much worse state than TPE was, and in my own personal opinion, Tricia Williams who will be taking over next year will only see to make things much worse as a DaFT yes person.
 

scrapy

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I thought there was a queue of people wanting to work on the railway, whats the wage for a guard on Northern at Barrow, I might be mad enough to consider moving up there.

There is, but like I said, DfT aren't letting them hire as many people as they actually need. And when they are allowed to hire (currently live vacancies at Barrow on their website if you're genuinely interested), not everyone applying will even be able to make it through the industry standard assessments and medical screenings, so the vacancies will stay unfilled, while even more existing staff retire or leave.
Pay is a little over 30k, slightly more for exTPE staff who have less favourable t&c's. There is likely to be a £1750 increase within the next few weeks with more to come should disputes be sorted out. It currently equates to about £16 per hour.

Whilst it used to be considered well paid, it's not that much more than many other jobs these days as pay rises haven't kept up with other industries. Early starts, late finishes, the fact that shifts can be changed at short notice, difficulties getting annual leave, lone working, constant threats of DOO trains and changes to working practices/Ts&cs, dealing with drunks, and the fact that you can't use public transport to get to work so probably need the expense of a car all make this an unattractive proposition to many.

BAE systems, Barrows largest employer have had to massively increase wages recognising low supply of suitable workers in the labour market in Barrow, but it isn't just a problem at Barrow, as many Northern managers are now becoming frustrated as they used to have their pick of hundreds of good applicants whereas now they are struggling to find enough suitable applicants.

Conductors used to stay in the job for many years whereas many are leaving after a year or two. This will only get worse as other wages increase at a faster rate. This is unsustainable with the amount of training required and there is insufficient places on courses.
This is unlikely to change in the near future as the government seem hell bent on making the rail industry a less attractive place to work.
 
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Geeves

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Another issue that I have not seen posted is that during the pandemic Northern went out of their way to sweep up all the former airline workers, perfect candidates for guards and of course as that industry has reopened many have returned to the job they didnt want leave in the first place, I would say at Victoria alone 10 to 20 have left in the last few months
 

skyhigh

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Another issue that I have not seen posted is that during the pandemic Northern went out of their way to sweep up all the former airline workers, perfect candidates for guards and of course as that industry has reopened many have returned to the job they didnt want leave in the first place, I would say at Victoria alone 10 to 20 have left in the last few months
Loads have gone- both drivers and guards. Quite a few have also walked off the job immediately rather than waiting out the notice period too which doesn't help.
 

LowLevel

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The airline thing is certainly a point - though unusually where I am a few have gone back but the vast majority have stayed on the railway.
 

KirkstallOne

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The 17:19 Leeds to Skipton train has been cancelled for the second time this week. Out of 6 journey’s there have been 2 cancellations and at least two significant delays. This has been going on for weeks now.

Surely it is way past time that Northern accept that they cannot run their timetabled services. I would rather that than having trains randomly cancelled.
 

AndrewE

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The 17:19 Leeds to Skipton train has been cancelled for the second time this week. Out of 6 journey’s there have been 2 cancellations and at least two significant delays. This has been going on for weeks now.

Surely it is way past time that Northern accept that they cannot run their timetabled services. I would rather that than having trains randomly cancelled.
but at least you have 7 trains in the 2 hours 1600 to 1800...
Spare a thought for the people travelling west from Derby towards Crewe on EMT, 2-hour gaps in the timetable and even then some of the others which should be hourly fail to run! I am very fortunate that I have noticed the cancellations when I have been going elsewhere rather than been depending on one. Even the alternative route via Tamworth suffers from cancellations of the XC Nottingham to Cardiffs...
 

KirkstallOne

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but at least you have 7 trains in the 2 hours 1600 to 1800...
Spare a thought for the people travelling west from Derby towards Crewe on EMT, 2-hour gaps in the timetable and even then some of the others which should be hourly fail to run! I am very fortunate that I have noticed the cancellations when I have been going elsewhere rather than been depending on one. Even the alternative route via Tamworth suffers from cancellations of the XC Nottingham to Cardiffs...
Only 4 stop at my station but yes I am sure other people are suffering more.

Frustrating though when they cancel my train and you know that the ilkley train, for example, is leaving soon and passing through Kirkstall Forge but not stopping. When trains started running from there it was really quiet but nowadays it is a busy stop.
 

Paul1160

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I have to agree with the comments KirkstallOne has made.
When I used to work in the office building next to Kirkstall Forge station,a lot of my work colleagues used to commute daily from Leeds and Bradford.
 

308165

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The 17:19 Leeds to Skipton train has been cancelled for the second time this week. Out of 6 journey’s there have been 2 cancellations and at least two significant delays. This has been going on for weeks now.

Surely it is way past time that Northern accept that they cannot run their timetabled services. I would rather that than having trains randomly cancelled.
And on Monday they cancelled both the 1656 and 1719 Leeds - Skipton leaving smaller stations on the Airedale line with nothing from 1626 to 1740, and this meant to be a commuter route out of a major city.

Meanwhile yesterday they cancelled the 1726 Leeds - Morecambe, and there is hardly a frequent peak service north of Skipton.
 

Thornaby 37

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Nothing will change as long as TOCs are allowed to P-code trains {ie, cancel them by 22:00 the day before and not have to pay out delay repay]
This appears to be a favourite tactic if the TOC is unable to source enough available traincrew to run the service
 

AMD

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Whilst it used to be considered well paid, it's not that much more than many other jobs these days as pay rises haven't kept up with other industries. Early starts, late finishes, the fact that shifts can be changed at short notice, difficulties getting annual leave, lone working, constant threats of DOO trains and changes to working practices/Ts&cs, dealing with drunks, and the fact that you can't use public transport to get to work so probably need the expense of a car all make this an unattractive proposition to many.
If anything the pay has stalled since 2019. A number of conductors at Barrow have left recently, to become cleaners at Sellafield as the pay for that job is nearer £20/hour now, hence the increase in cancellations around Cumbria in the past couple of months.
 

td97

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Nothing will change as long as TOCs are allowed to P-code trains {ie, cancel them by 22:00 the day before and not have to pay out delay repay]
This appears to be a favourite tactic if the TOC is unable to source enough available traincrew to run the service
Northern have not P-coded any services so far this week.
 

Bantamzen

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And on Monday they cancelled both the 1656 and 1719 Leeds - Skipton leaving smaller stations on the Airedale line with nothing from 1626 to 1740, and this meant to be a commuter route out of a major city.

Meanwhile yesterday they cancelled the 1726 Leeds - Morecambe, and there is hardly a frequent peak service north of Skipton.
Its definitely getting worse on the Aire and Wharfe routes, and this is before the 331/1s are swapped over for the 331/0s. How long before there's a bunch of cancellations in the peak and a 3 car 331 rocks up to mop up?
 

northernchris

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Its definitely getting worse on the Aire and Wharfe routes, and this is before the 331/1s are swapped over for the 331/0s. How long before there's a bunch of cancellations in the peak and a 3 car 331 rocks up to mop up?

Indeed, both Skipton and Leeds seem to be short of conductors. Last Saturday the 1708, 1713 and 1720 from Shipley to Leeds were all cancelled due to lack of crew. Northern are also short forming a lot of the Carlisle services, with 2 car 158s showing up far too often, further reducing available capacity.
 

david737

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After what has been a reasonable week re cancellations it looks as if normal service has resumed on Northern, over 60 already cancelled for tomorrow and quiet a few for today as well although there has been a major signaling failure between Leeds and Halifax which is causing chaos on the Calder Valley route.
 

scrapy

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After what has been a reasonable week re cancellations it looks as if normal service has resumed on Northern, over 60 already cancelled for tomorrow and quiet a few for today as well although there has been a major signaling failure between Leeds and Halifax which is causing chaos on the Calder Valley route.
The rest day working agreement is actually likely to make things worse on a Sunday as nothings changed for Sunday but anyone who worked extra Sundays may prefer to work extra shifts in the week instead.

Also guards are likely to be getting a substantial amount of back pay over Xmas, due to how long the dispute has lasted, so are less likely to volunteer to work overtime. An entirely predictable consequence of government interference in the dispute.
 
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43066

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The rest day working agreement is actually likely to make things worse on a Sunday as nothings changed for Sunday but anyone who worked extra Sundays may prefer to work extra shifts in the week instead.

Also guards are likely to be getting a substantial amount of back pay over Xmas, due to how long the dispute has lasted, so are less likely to volunteer to work overtime. An entirely predictable consequence of government interference in the dispute.

What is the northern RDW arrangement? Is it a % extra plus booking on fee etc.?

If the drivers where I work are anything to go by, you’d be surprised by the potential appetite for rest day work. Nine days per month is doable. That means working pretty much every day, with the occasional day off to comply with Hidden, but it’s sustainable for brief periods, especially if a particular financial objective needs to be achieved eg a holiday, a gift etc.
 
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td97

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After what has been a reasonable week re cancellations it looks as if normal service has resumed on Northern, over 60 already cancelled for tomorrow and quiet a few for today as well although there has been a major signaling failure between Leeds and Halifax which is causing chaos on the Calder Valley route.
Sunday disruption (North West) is down to guard shortages, so the driver RDW will make little difference.
 

northwichcat

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There now seems to be a recurring problem with "train crew members being delayed by service disruption", even when there doesn't seem to be any infrastructure problems and the only cancellations are those relating to train crews being unavailable. Possibly driver can't return to their base station because the service they're due to travel back on is cancelled due to no driver for that service?
 

43066

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There now seems to be a recurring problem with "train crew members being delayed by service disruption", even when there doesn't seem to be any infrastructure problems and the only cancellations are those relating to train crews being unavailable. Possibly driver can't return to their base station because the service they're due to travel back on is cancelled due to no driver for that service?

Quite likely. If a “pass” train is cancelled (ie a train on which a driver is booked to travel on as a passenger) it will often be impossible for them to reach their next working in time.
 

trainophile

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Quite likely. If a “pass” train is cancelled (ie a train on which a driver is booked to travel on as a passenger) it will often be impossible for them to reach their next working in time.

If it was the last run of their booked shift, would they be expected to drive the train, knowing they would have to wait around at destination station before travelling back to base? I imagine if that was the case they would be entitled to overtime for the extra time before being able to clock off?
 

43066

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If it was the last run of their booked shift, would they be expected to drive the train, knowing they would have to wait around at destination station before travelling back to base? I imagine if that was the case they would be entitled to overtime for the extra time before being able to clock off?

The answer to this will be “it depends”; do they sign the route and traction, for example? One issue would be if the train they’re booked to pass on doesn’t finish its journey where they leave it, there may be nobody to take it further and nowhere to stable it. The knock on effect to their next duty will need to be considered, and of course goodwill (or lack thereof) also comes into it, and will affect how likely people are to be willing to extend their working day to help out.

If days are extended overtime is indeed payable,
albeit generally not at the enhanced rate paid for working on days off.
 
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northwichcat

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Regarding Helsby to Ellesmere Port (while it's currently displaying on Journey Check)

18:50 Helsby to Ellesmere Port due 19:01 will be cancelled.
This is due to a member of train crew being unavailable.
19:06 Ellesmere Port to Liverpool Lime Street due 20:28 will be cancelled.
This is due to a member of train crew being unavailable.
Additional Information
We apologise for the cancellation of this service today.
Replacement Road Transport will run as follows -
1 x taxi will depart Helsby at 18:50 and call at Ince and Elton and Ellesmere Port. Operated by Alpha Taxis (Liverpool)
1 x taxi will depart Ellesmere Port at 19:06 calling at Ince and Elton and Helsby. Operated by Alpha Taxis (Liverpool).

 

Kite159

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Regarding Helsby to Ellesmere Port (while it's currently displaying on Journey Check)



Nothing unusual with that line being the first in line to get axed. Typical use when it runs probably will fit comfortably in a taxi
 

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