Northern Ad hoc cancellations

[northwichcat]

It’s common in all sorts of industries to incentivise people to work overtime, work anti social hours etc. I’m not sure why people expect the railway to be any different.

However inevitably people will also want to spend time with loved ones/friends over the festive season, so there is a need for more of an incentive at this time of year - especially where the employer has chosen to keep Sundays outside the working week thus being entirely reliant on overtime to provide the service, as seems to be the case with Northern. It would be interesting to know whether the refusal to provide an incentive comes from management or the DfT.

In some industries you may get a higher than normal hourly rate for overtime e.g. 1.5 times the normal hourly wage, or you may get normal pay for a shorter shift e.g. you get paid the same for 9-4 on a Sun as you get for 9-6 on a Thurs.

However, a random figure of £100 as an additional incentive for working Christmas Eve when there may already be an incentive for volunteering to work a Sunday shift wouldn't be normal practice.

For some people money alone won't be an incentive. For example, if you have relatives visiting from abroad for just 1 week from 24-31 Dec then the employer offering £250 might not be tempting. Not having to work from 25-31 Dec in exchange for working 24 Dec might be a different matter.

 

[43066]

However, a random figure of £100 as an additional incentive for working Christmas Eve when there may already be an incentive for volunteering to work a Sunday shift wouldn't be normal practice.

Who defines normal practice?

It’s absolutely “normal practice” where I work, and in various industries: some NHS staff earn time*2 for working over Xmas vice time*1.5 for usual overtime. Similar arrangements exist in other sectors.

For some people money alone won't be an incentive. For example, if you have relatives visiting from abroad for just 1 week from 24-31 Dec then the employer offering £250 might not be tempting. Not having to work from 25-31 Dec in exchange for working 24 Dec might be a different matter.

Time will tell. If there isn’t enough of an incentive, there will simply be cancellations! I would have expected a competent business that has chosen to rely entirely on overtime to be working very hard to incentivise staff to come in, yet Northern don’t appear to be doing so.

 

[Bevan Price]

Is it time to change how punctuality and reliability figures are calculated. I understand that if a train is cancelled on the previous evening, it is omitted from those calculations. Perhaps this should be changed so that the calculation refers to the actual delay to passengers.

So, regardless of when it is cancelled, on an hourly service, all cancelled trains should be treated as if they were 60 minutes late -plus any lateness of the next train that actually runs.

 

[td97]

Northern have issued a do not travel warning for Sunday 24th, due to traincrew (guard) unavailability

⚠️We ask that customers DO NOT TRAVEL on the below routes on Christmas eve (24/12/23):

Morecambe/Heysham – Lancaster
Blackpool South – Colne
Wigan – Stalybridge
Clitheroe – Manchester Victoria
Manchester Victoria – Chester
Manchester Piccadilly – Chester (Via Altrincham)
Manchester Piccadilly - Crewe

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Northern have issued a do not travel warning for Sunday 24th, due to traincrew (guard) unavailability

Also being discussed, at some length, here...

Northern: DO NOT TRAVEL on Sunday 24th December

Due to a shortage of train crew, we will be operating a reduced service on Christmas Eve with services finishing earlier than usual and multiple routes being impacted by disruption. Customers are advised to plan their journey and check before they travel. Customers with tickets dated 24th...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Kite159]

When I was at Edge Hill earlier in the week I noticed they don't even give a reason for cancelling services anymore "this is due to... *Blank space*"

The local bus companies & car park companies must be laughing their way to the bank

 

[Dieseldriver]

With 24 December being a Sunday it's not in my normal work week (I don't work on the railways). However, if my employer said I could have £100 extra for doing a 24 Dec shift (on top of being paid for working the Sunday) I'd bite their hand off and make sure I had it in writing before accepting - as it would sound too good to be true.

As will some railway staff. And I guarantee that many of your colleagues would decline the offer. Every workplace in every industry is staffed with individuals, each with individual needs/wants.

 

[jayah]

As will some railway staff. And I guarantee that many of your colleagues would decline the offer. Every workplace in every industry is staffed with individuals, each with individual needs/wants.

When drivers are being paid £54.5k a year basic, it is very unattractive. The tax & N.I means you would be lucky to take home half of the gross earnings. You can have all the headcount you want, this will only be resolved when Sunday services are completely removed from the timetable, or Sunday working is added to the contract of employment.

 

[TUC]

Who defines normal practice?

It’s absolutely “normal practice” where I work, and in various industries: some NHS staff earn time*2 for working over Xmas vice time*1.5 for usual overtime. Similar arrangements exist in other sectors.

The difference is, whilst NHS staff do indeed get paid these additional amounts, there is not usually any choice over whether to work at Christmas if you are in a service, such as inpatient wards, which operate on those days (although decent management will try and accommodate specific needs, such as relatives visiting from overseas). It's that element of, alongside double time, accepting it as part of the job that is missing from parts of the rail industry.

 

[43066]

The difference is, whilst NHS staff do indeed get paid these additional amounts, there is not usually any choice over whether to work at Christmas if you are in a service, such as inpatient wards, which operate on those days (although decent management will try and accommodate specific needs, such as relatives visiting from overseas). It's that element of, alongside double time, accepting it as part of the job that is missing from parts of the rail industry.

Some NHS staff will be required to work, but that isn’t true across the board - otherwise there would be no need to pay double time! The NHS relies heavily on overtime to operate over Xmas (we also read constantly of NHS staff shortages and widespread dissatisfaction, so it isn’t a model the railway should follow).

In any case, the point is that those staff won’t have signed contracts stating that they aren’t required to work Christmas Day and Boxing Day, as rail staff have. As such working on those days (and - relevantly to this thread - Sundays at some locations) expressly isn’t “part of the job” for many rail staff. If employers/government now want to move the goal posts that will need to be paid for…

 

[northwichcat]

You can have all the headcount you want, this will only be resolved when Sunday services are completely removed from the timetable, or Sunday working is added to the contract of employment.

There's no chance of the former happening. Saturday services are oversubscribed and, unlike 30 years ago, Sunday is not generally seen as a closed day anymore. The obvious solution is the European style 7 day timetable.

On Sunday morning I saw a packed Pendolino leaving Crewe for Euston, followed by a busy 12 carriage London Northwestern stopping service for Euston. And that was despite train operators doing everything they could to discourage travel that day. Imagine what it would be like if train operators provided a proper Sunday service, with resources to be able to deliver it. Even the cancelled and then reinstated Northern and TfW Rail services had healthy loadings.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Northern have issued a do not travel warning for Sunday 24th, due to traincrew (guard) unavailability

Piccadilly to Chester via Altrincham was reinstated on the 31st.

 

[northwichcat]

Piccadilly to Chester via Altrincham was reinstated on the 31st.

After Northern said, on the 29th, services would be suspended all day on the 31st with no replacement buses! Even after that message was withdrawn they weren't exactly guaranteeing services would run as there was still a "Check before travel" message for the line on Journey Check. I heard the loading on one Chester-Manchester bound service was around 100 on Sunday. That was much higher than the non-existent loading on the 17:54 Stockport to Chester I caught yesterday.

 

[jayah]

There's no chance of the former happening. Saturday services are oversubscribed and, unlike 30 years ago, Sunday is not generally seen as a closed day anymore. The obvious solution is the European style 7 day timetable.

On Sunday morning I saw a packed Pendolino leaving Crewe for Euston, followed by a busy 12 carriage London Northwestern stopping service for Euston. And that was despite train operators doing everything they could to discourage travel that day. Imagine what it would be like if train operators provided a proper Sunday service, with resources to be able to deliver it. Even the cancelled and then reinstated Northern and TfW Rail services had healthy loadings.

So we seem to be in agreement that for the railway to be viable, Sundays need to go into the contract and as a business viability issue, endless negotiations, trade union agreement and huge pay increases are not required.

 

[RAPC]

So we seem to be in agreement that for the railway to be viable, Sundays need to go into the contract and as a business viability issue, endless negotiations, trade union agreement and huge pay increases are not required.

Well the Unions have always been very agreeable to including Sundays. Easy solution is for Government to allow TOCs to sort reasonable pay increases alongside the inclusion of Sundays, without trying to bring in additional requirements to intentionally stop it happening.

Government, rather than Unions are the ones stopping Sundays being part of contracts. If they do that and sort pay reasonably, then I'd say there is every chance of there being a viable, working railway.

 

[jayah]

Well the Unions have always been very agreeable to including Sundays. Easy solution is for Government to allow TOCs to sort reasonable pay increases alongside the inclusion of Sundays, without trying to bring in additional requirements to intentionally stop it happening.

Government, rather than Unions are the ones stopping Sundays being part of contracts. If they do that and sort pay reasonably, then I'd say there is every chance of there being a viable, working railway.

There will be no agreement on pay for this. The unions think Sundays are worth double digit increase on top of what is already being paid. Having wasted 18 months arguing about double digit pay increases, they just need to change the terms and move forward.

 

[RAPC]

There will be no agreement on pay for this. The unions think Sundays are worth double digit increase on top of what is already being paid. Having wasted 18 months arguing about double digit pay increases, they just need to change the terms and move forward.

That would be a decision for Union membership. As nobody has proposed any such offer, I’m not sure how you have such a clear view of it being rejected out of hand.

The wasted 18 months has been caused by government politicians, not unions. Trying to illegally change the terms is wishful thinking at best, or just clueless posturing for an anti-union rant at worst.

I think you are aiming your frustration in the wrong direction.

 

[northwichcat]

Ad hoc cancellations are an issue every day of the week, not just Sundays. However, when Northern advertise things like the following on Sundays

20:59 Chester to Manchester Piccadilly due 22:26 will be cancelled.
This is due to a short-notice change to the timetable.

Northern JourneyCheck - Train times and live real time delay/cancellation/disruption information.

Northern JourneyCheck provides real time, up-to-date train times and train disruption information keeping you informed about any delays or cancellations on the network and helping you know what to do when your journey is affected. Train Cancellations, Delays, Alterations and Engineering Work...

www.journeycheck.com

It's unacceptable. That's the last train of the day and the previous one is 2 hours earlier. At present there's no clear indication of whether they will be attempt to source a replacement bus.

 

[Confused52]

Ad hoc cancellations are an issue every day of the week, not just Sundays. However, when Northern advertise things like the following on Sundays

Northern JourneyCheck - Train times and live real time delay/cancellation/disruption information.

Northern JourneyCheck provides real time, up-to-date train times and train disruption information keeping you informed about any delays or cancellations on the network and helping you know what to do when your journey is affected. Train Cancellations, Delays, Alterations and Engineering Work...

www.journeycheck.com

It's unacceptable. That's the last train of the day and the previous one is 2 hours earlier. At present there's no clear indication of whether they will be attempt to source a replacement bus.

I think you can guess! The service and its inbound were both cancelled on Friday at 1630 ish. The previous service on that unit diagram all ran to and from Buxton. Northern just couldn't find a volunteer at Piccadilly on Friday. We are past the holidays excuse now.

 

[scrapy]

It's unacceptable. That's the last train of the day and the previous one is 2 hours earlier. At present there's no clear indication of whether they will be attempt to source a replacement bus.

It does seem a replacement bus is scheduled to run although the end to end journey time is 3 hours.

 

[Confused52]

It does seem a replacement bus is scheduled to run although the end to end journey time is 3 hours.

Indeed and only visible on the National Rail site. It seems that this is because it is the last service, one wonders what the cut-off time is for this level of care?

 

[Moonshot]

I think you can guess! The service and its inbound were both cancelled on Friday at 1630 ish. The previous service on that unit diagram all ran to and from Buxton. Northern just couldn't find a volunteer at Piccadilly on Friday. We are past the holidays excuse now.

No guard means train doesn't run. That's the reality. Guards are perfectly entitled not to work overtime.

 

[jayah]

That would be a decision for Union membership. As nobody has proposed any such offer, I’m not sure how you have such a clear view of it being rejected out of hand.

The wasted 18 months has been caused by government politicians, not unions. Trying to illegally change the terms is wishful thinking at best, or just clueless posturing for an anti-union rant at worst.

I think you are aiming your frustration in the wrong direction.

The subject has prevuously surfaced in the ASLEF dispute. It would be dismissed out of hand unless sweetened with a large increase in pay, which isn't going to happen either.

It is not illegal to change T&Cs over a business viability issue, which this is.

 

[muz379]

The subject has prevuously surfaced in the ASLEF dispute. It would be dismissed out of hand unless sweetened with a large increase in pay, which isn't going to happen either.

It is not illegal to change T&Cs over a business viability issue, which this is.

You are conflating the massive number of proposed changes to terms and conditions that were tired into pay offers in the national disputes , with agreements over sunday working which is precisely what the RDG have been doing at the behest of the government over this last 18 months .

If negotiations on just sunday working were opened then a deal could very easily be reached on that , indeed such has happened successfully at other TOC's in recent times .

You can repeat your desire for them to just change terms and conditions as much as you want , this is just simply not going to happen so stop being unrealistic .

 

[Confused52]

No guard means train doesn't run. That's the reality. Guards are perfectly entitled not to work overtime.

North West guards are. Others do not have the same unfettered ability to inconvenience customers just for the sake of it.

 

[Moonshot]

North West guards are. Others do not have the same unfettered ability to inconvenience customers just for the sake of it.

Guard think of themselves and families first before overtime and rightly so. If there is any desire from above to either committed Sundays or Sundays inside the week, then ( as pointed out) that would have to be negotiated for extra pay. It's that simple. I have yet to see any evidence of that and I don't think I will be doing anytime soon. Until that day arrives, then services will be cancelled.

 

[Jamesrob637]

When I was at Edge Hill earlier in the week I noticed they don't even give a reason for cancelling services anymore "this is due to... *Blank space*"

The local bus companies & car park companies must be laughing their way to the bank

I noticed this for the 21:41 to Rochdale or somewhere at Manchester Victoria last night. What must first-timers or novices to the railway think?! Thankfully everything I was scheduled to catch yesterday ran, and additionally ran to within 5min of schedule.

 

[Geeves]

I could be wrong but east side Sundays are in the working week because they sold them for a wage rise during Arriva days while the west side sold some conditions under FNW Sundays wasn't one of them, hence why there are still two different contacts to this day.

As far the announcements go to while the option can be displayed on the screens there are certain things she just cannot say especially if it's a new reason because it hasn't been recorded.

That's why you get "this train has been cancelled due to..." Nothing!

 

[Alz]

Morale for staff at northern is terrible at the moment. We’ve got politicians who haven’t got a clue about running a railway pulling strings in the background. Public abusive to staff because of the poor service given. Disputes still on going with the government refusing to take talks with the unions. Rest day agreements are in place but very few people are prepared to work because of the cancellations and abuse that they get from passengers. I don’t think anything will improve until we have a change of government.

 

[Kite159]

Morale for staff at northern is terrible at the moment. We’ve got politicians who haven’t got a clue about running a railway pulling strings in the background. Public abusive to staff because of the poor service given. Disputes still on going with the government refusing to take talks with the unions. Rest day agreements are in place but very few people are prepared to work because of the cancellations and abuse that they get from passengers. I don’t think anything will improve until we have a change of government.

Even if you changed the government, you will still have all the senior civil servants within the DfT trying to play train management.