Northern cancellations getting worse

[headshot119]

It’s no good just throwing up some pieces of legislation you’ve read about (or more likely you’ve read someone else commenting on).

You’re the one claiming a breach is occurring so it’s up to you to show what it is. Specifically which provisions are being breached and why?

I’ve also asked a few times now for some evidence that the current NRCOT are reducing passenger numbers, as you’ve asserted above.

Look mate, don't try and tell me that selling a ticket that's only valid on the 1000 Anytown > Bobsville to a punter 8 weeks ahead of travel, then cancelling the 1000 Anytown > Bobsville at 2159 the night before, then telling the punter to like it or lump it that's what the contract says is in anyway passenger friendly or acceptable. Be part of the solution not the problem.

 

[td97]

Chaos at Bolton this morning, courtesy of Northern.
0749 to Manchester Victoria/Rochdale (0649 from Clitheroe) 2 carriages vice 3 - left passengers behind at Hall I th wood and Bolton.
0754 to Manchester Piccadilly/Airport (0653 from Blackpool North) 3 carriages vice 6. This is full and standing after Horwich/Lostock with all 6 carriages and has been known to leave passengers behind at Bolton and/or Salford Crescent when fully formed.
Probably at least a hundred left at Bolton for the next, delayed, service to Alderley Edge.

https://twitter.com/RossColderley/status/1575019794184785921?t=ul-oTF2C5RhdkM2vBc6VDQ&s=19

https://twitter.com/JOSHLBGCOX/status/1575018546182377472?t=ul-oTF2C5RhdkM2vBc6VDQ&s=19

https://twitter.com/hin79930126/status/1575023738336206849?t=5HIisciLexj4B5oO7ty5GA&s=19

Speculation of replacing 6 carriages (2x331/0) with 4 (1x331/1) is ludicrous.

Northern's Twitter replies sound increasingly desperate, stating "I'm very sorry to hear this, we have sent everything we had available this morning".

 

[43066]

Look mate, don't try and tell me that selling a ticket that's only valid on the 1000 Anytown > Bobsville to a punter 8 weeks ahead of travel, then cancelling the 1000 Anytown > Bobsville at 2159 the night before, then telling the punter to like it or lump it that's what the contract says is in anyway passenger friendly or acceptable. Be part of the solution not the problem.

I never said it was acceptable, but neither is it a breach of contract law. As far as I can see people in that position are still entitled to travel on subsequent services under NRCOT, this is just related to delay repay. At the end of the day being able to claim a few quid back for ah advanced ticket (or not) isn’t going to remove the inconvenience of a cancellation.

When I read hyperbolic and inaccurate claims by a poster who, in every other post they make, seems to delight in constantly complaining and attacking staff, unions and advancing conspiracy theories about the railway deciding it “can’t be bothered” to run any trains I will call them out.

 

[MikeWM]

1645 now cancelled as well!

And (a week late; I've been away) here's what eventually happened



There was no disruption or infrastructure issues causing this, they just cancelled *6 trains in a row*, so just one ran in a period of over 2 hours - when in 2019 there would have been 10, as this is on an already reduced timetable that hasn't fully recovered post-covid.

The 1709 (I was on it) was incredibly busy and left a number of people behind.

I'm not sure I've ever seen 6 trains in a row cancelled (when there isn't some external infrastructure reason) before. No wonder people are trying to avoid relying on the train. Of course there are no trains on this route at all today, which may or may not be worse.

 

[Philip]

I'm not sure I've ever seen 6 trains in a row cancelled (when there isn't some external infrastructure reason) before. No wonder people are trying to avoid relying on the train. Of course there are no trains on this route at all today, which may or may not be worse.

I'm having to travel across town on the buses today. I'm afraid it is clear how much more difficult bus travel is compared with using the train, at least in this area. People are making their journeys more difficult by trying to avoid using the train. This is one of many reasons why the government should be investing in the railways by increasing their subsidy rather than planning cuts; this includes all roles (booking offices included), service frequency improvements, cheaper fares, more new rolling stock etc.

 

[43066]

I'm having to travel across town on the buses today. I'm afraid it is clear how much more difficult bus travel is compared with using the train, at least in this area. People are making their journeys more difficult by trying to avoid using the train. This is one of many reasons why the government should be investing in the railways by increasing their subsidy rather than planning cuts; this includes all roles (booking offices included), service frequency improvements, cheaper fares, more new rolling stock etc.

Unfortunately this is an impossible wish-list! If anything that argument will be turned around by the DfT to justify getting rid of booking offices to pay the operational staff more. I hate to say it but, if you’re currently in a booking office, and not close to retirement, I’d think carefully about the future.

 

[geoffk]

We need better conditions for bus travel as well for the many for whom train is not an option, including secure long-term funding, better information and more priority on the highway. I've been on a packed Stagecoach bus today from Exmouth to Exeter. Because of the increased road traffic and the time taken for the driver to take fares from those unfamiliar with the system, the journey took one hour against 45 minutes scheduled, and 24 to 27 minutes on the train.

 

[Philip]

Unfortunately this is an impossible wish-list! If anything that argument will be turned around by the DfT to justify getting rid of booking offices to pay the operational staff more. I hate to say it but, if you’re currently in a booking office, and not close to retirement, I’d think carefully about the future.

It is during cancellations and disruption where the booking offices play a more vital role, ironically. The media have reported plans to close them all but this is a non-starter.

 

[43066]

It is during cancellations and disruption where the booking offices play a more vital role, ironically. The media have reported plans to close them all but this is a non-starter.

They almost certainly will all be closed eventually, possibly apart from major London terminals. That’s the simple reality of the situation.

Perhaps that’s no bad thing, so long as staff can be redeployed. In an age where everyone has a phone that they can run their entire lives from, let alone contactless cards etc. paper tickets bought from ticket offices are increasingly fading into irrelevance. Surely you can see that? There’s no point in being a Luddite and the reality is that defence of of ticket offices simply isn’t a hill worth dying on these days…

 

[skyhigh]

The media have reported plans to close them all but this is a non-starter.

This isn't the thread to discuss it, but I really wouldn't be so sure on that.

 

[yorksrob]

Goodness. Posters up-thread are quoting passenger figures of 90-93% of pre-covid levels. Any normal, sensible country would be celebrating that as an excellent bounce-back for the railway. But not here - just an excuse for more cuts !

 

[Kite159]

Goodness. Posters up-thread are quoting passenger figures of 90-93% of pre-covid levels. Any normal, sensible country would be celebrating that as an excellent bounce-back for the railway. But not here - just an excuse for more cuts !

Passenger figures are one thing, but the issue from the DfT is revenue isn't at 90-93% of pre-Covid levels (depending on operator).

 

[yorksrob]

Passenger figures are one thing, but the issue from the DfT is revenue isn't at 90-93% of pre-Covid levels (depending on operator).

DfT and Treasury need to learn the value of the service to passengers, instead of dreaming about lost funding models.

 

[MikeWM]

I'm having to travel across town on the buses today. I'm afraid it is clear how much more difficult bus travel is compared with using the train, at least in this area. People are making their journeys more difficult by trying to avoid using the train.

It depends on the journey made - Liverpool to Huyton, the journey I was making last week, has very frequent, albeit rather slower, buses, so for that at least there is an alternative.

But I agree that people want to use the railway *in theory*. Whether they actually do so when faced with no trains for two hours - followed by a train so full the person standing next to me felt she was about to have a panic attack - or indeed no trains at all as today and also next Saturday, is a rather different matter. And how many people who do try to travel on these days are put off and switch to some other form of transport, not trying the train again until some months/years from now? (And yes, this isn't the thread to discuss this, but how many further people will be put off if there is no longer a booking office at the station?)

 

[JamesT]

DfT and Treasury need to learn the value of the service to passengers, instead of dreaming about lost funding models.

But when it comes down to the government making the choice between directing funding to schools and hospitals or more subsidy for the rail network, which do you think they’ll choose? Which priority are most of the electorate going to agree with?

 

[yorksrob]

But when it comes down to the government making the choice between directing funding to schools and hospitals or more subsidy for the rail network, which do you think they’ll choose? Which priority are most of the electorate going to agree with?

If you go with that argument, you may as well ot fund defence, highways maintenance or anything else that's not health or education.

The passenger railway is an essential service because it is the only viable form of public mass transit for medium-long distance travel. Anyone who suggests otherwise is living in cloud cuckoo land.

 

[43066]

But when it comes down to the government making the choice between directing funding to schools and hospitals or more subsidy for the rail network, which do you think they’ll choose? Which priority are most of the electorate going to agree with?

It doesn’t have to be a zero sum game… It’s also interesting that the same government that balks at public spending thinks it can afford uncosted tax breaks for people earning £150k+…

 

[TUC]

It is during cancellations and disruption where the booking offices play a more vital role, ironically. The media have reported plans to close them all but this is a non-starter.

Surely when there are cancellations it is online where many people would look for information these days? I certainly would. I want to find the alternatives as quickly as possible, not spend time in a long queue.

 

[Matt_pool]

Shocking number of cancellations on the Liverpool -Warrington-Manchester Oxford Rd line today!

 

[Peterthegreat]

Shocking number of cancellations on the Liverpool -Warrington-Manchester Oxford Rd line today!

A shocking number of cancellations across the Northern Network.
The Journey Check for Northern shows the 19.00 Sheffield to York as cancelled with passengers told to catch the next available Northern service. Which happens to be at 16.14 next Sunday. It is not just the ongoing cancellations it is this type of thing that just shows what an incompetent organisation Northern are.

 

[Llandudno]

Shocking number of cancellations on the Liverpool -Warrington-Manchester Oxford Rd line today!

Chosen a good route to cancel seeing as though Manchester United are at Everton this evening…!

Coincidence or intentional…..?

 

[175001]

It is not just the ongoing cancellations it is this type of thing that just shows what an incompetent organisation Northern are.

Government ran these days. I think we can safely say its a fair representation of the last 12 years of Westminster rule

 

[Bikeman78]

Again showing a lack of understanding. If you buy a train ticket you do so subject to the NRCOT ie they’re incorporated into the contract and you’re deemed to have accepted them whether you’ve bothered to read them or not. Clearly it isn’t ideal but if the train is cancelled the inconvenience remains irrespective of whether you can claim delay repay.

Realistically, almost no one reads terms and conditions. Dave Gorman proved that a few years ago. The 36 pages of terms and conditions for the Boris bikes in London claimed that a leap year has 364 days instead of the correct 366 days. When Dave spotted it, the bike scheme had been running for 18 months. He reported the error and it was corrected within two days.

As regards cancellations, presumably the option of a full refund still exists if a train is cancelled and the passenger does not travel? Still a bit rubbish though. I'm not going to stay up until 22:00 if I'm catching the 06:XX the next morning.

 

[RT4038]

If you go with that argument, you may as well ot fund defence, highways maintenance or anything else that's not health or education.

But the pressure is there, not just health and education - social care, benefits, pensions.

The passenger railway is an essential service because it is the only viable form of public mass transit for medium-long distance travel. Anyone who suggests otherwise is living in cloud cuckoo land.

That may well be your opinion, but a large percentage of voters have, have access to or aspire to cars which are seen as a more desirable alternative, for all but certain journeys. This will have an effect on the decisions of priorities.

 

[Watershed]

Chosen a good route to cancel seeing as though Manchester United are at Everton this evening…!

Coincidence or intentional…..?

It's quite common for the number of volunteers for overtime to be lower on days where there are major sporting fixtures, yes. And given that Sundays are outside the working week for the west side Northern depots, the resultant cancellations should come as little surprise.

 

[td97]

the resultant cancellations should come as little surprise.

Presumably after the RMT strike yesterday, most west-side guards have opted for a full weekend off work.

 

[AMD]

Presumably after the RMT strike yesterday, most guards have opted for a full weekend off work.

It's actually drivers opting not to work Sundays, apart from their booked ones.
From the depots I get sight of over 85% of conductor jobs are filled today, but it's nearer 60% of drivers jobs covered; and add in the fact that drivers are still on emergency rostering, that 60% will end up being less than 50% of actual work covered......

 

[HullRailMan]

If you go with that argument, you may as well ot fund defence, highways maintenance or anything else that's not health or education.

The passenger railway is an essential service because it is the only viable form of public mass transit for medium-long distance travel. Anyone who suggests otherwise is living in cloud cuckoo land.

The word ‘essential’ is tricky when it comes to government spending. I’d suggest anything concerned with a possible life or death situation (health, defence, security, police, welfare etc) would be deemed far more essential, if push comes to shove, than rail. Rightly or wrongly, there is only so much government budget (if managed properly) and railways will always be competing for funds in the ‘other’ section.

 

[Horizon22]

DfT and Treasury need to learn the value of the service to passengers, instead of dreaming about lost funding models.

Loads of people paying £1 for train travel isn't a sustainable transport model, unless the government of the time decides that extra subsidy is an acceptable model (spoiler: they don't). There is limited "value of passengers" if they don't pay that much (unfortunately). Also too many cheap passengers - without an uplift in capacity - leads to overcrowding, which isn't going to give those people much "value". That being said, few TOCs would list 6 subsequent cancellations and would try their best to have them spread.

Obviously there's a perfect equilibrium between demand, supply and pricing to get the maximum revenue but it is in constant flux and there are pricing and revenue managers who are experts at this sort of thing with a vast array of data at their fingertips.

I as much as many on these forums would love to see big advances and improvements in staffing, infrastructure, systems and customer service but I am also a realist of the framework the railway industry (and indeed many sectors) sit within.

 

[Bevan Price]

Looking at RTT, the hourly service between St. Helens Central & Liverpool Lime St. today (9 Oct.) had no trains between 13:29 and 18:45.
With an equivalent 5 hour gap in the opposite direction for the Liverpool/St.Helens /Wigan / Blackpool service.
Marginally worse than last Sunday when the gap was only 4 hours.