Northern cancellations getting worse

[Nicholas Lewis]

That would cause network wide contagion of the issues limited to certain TOCs during OT bans. It would make the railway effectively unusable, including the bits that are currently working fine. For that reason it‘s about as likely as the entire railway being closed down to save money (albeit that’s something I’m sure many on here would actively relish!)

Im sure but overtime is a controllable cost that can be easily switched off and we seem to have the DfT just needing to save cash without worrying about consequences. Presumably it would then be a matter of optimising the train service around what resources are available however poor an outcome that would give passengers. Personally id rather see overtime used than trains sent to the scrap heap as the lead time to replace them is years but if traffic picks up easy to switch back on overtime. However, I suspect that on many routes revenue is dependant on maintaining service frequency so it will probably be a mix of both depending on operators.
Of course id rather the status quo of existing service provision was just kept as its inadequate on many routes already.

 

[stephen rp]

This is all due to the boffins of the Manchester Recovery Taskforce who decided splitting it at Warrington was the best thing for performance...

Stupid idea, reflecting that other routes in GM got preference, and ripping up the CLC pattern that had (generally) worked ok for decades. But Irlam and Urmston will also be affected by cancellations (Northern and TPE) so Mayor Burnham will be getting worked up again.

But if Northern's first response to shortage of staff and trains is to give up on the CLC, and abandoning the Liverpool-Warrington service looks like that may be the case, plus TPE cancellations of the Cleethorpes - LIV services, what on earth can be done?

I can't imagine what else is being cut (because Real Time Trains doesn't show what should run) but the idea that a TPE to Liverpool could sit for 30 mins on platform 2 at Oxford Road and the only service that needed to use another platform to get past it was a freightliner is just ridiculous.

Who exactly are those "boffins"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stupid idea, reflecting that other routes in GM got preference, and ripping up the CLC pattern that had (generally) worked ok for decades.

Not very many decades. One and a half I reckon. It's just a return to the service (ish*) that ran until the mid 2000s since the 1980s (I think) opening of the Windsor Link.

* That pattern had one more fast and many if not most of the locals on the Manchester side only ran to Irlam. If I recall rightly (I used the line a lot in 1997-1998 and about weekly after that until 2001) it was an hourly TPE (Warrington, Birchwood), an hourly Norwich (Widnes, Warrington), an hourly Liverpool-Manchester Airport semifast (can't recall what all the stops were but I did use it a few times, it was typically a single Pacer and rammed in the AM peak) and the two 1tph locals at each end, Liverpool-Warrington and (Warrington-)Irlam-Manchester. The 0749 Norwich did Hunts Cross, Birchwood, Irlam and Urmston in addition to its normal stops if I recall, and there was something similar the other way in the evening too.

 

[43066]

Im sure but overtime is a controllable cost that can be easily switched off and we seem to have the DfT just needing to save cash without worrying about consequences. Presumably it would then be a matter of optimising the train service around what resources are available however poor an outcome that would give passengers. Personally id rather see overtime used than trains sent to the scrap heap as the lead time to replace them is years but if traffic picks up easy to switch back on overtime. However, I suspect that on many routes revenue is dependant on maintaining service frequency so it will probably be a mix of both depending on operators.
Of course id rather the status quo of existing service provision was just kept as its inadequate on many routes already.

You can never say never with this government, I suppose . That said, I’m not sure about the “easily switched off” bit, at least in practical terms On the TOC side I doubt it would be possible to run a meaningful service without it. Where I am driver overtime has been relied on heavily even to run strike timetables, which gives you some idea. Interestingly where I am a 12 month RDW agreement has just been agreed, rather than the usual 6 months…

Presumably on the NR side you’d end up with boxes closed, track not being inspected.

 

[Confused52]

Not very many decades. One and a half I reckon. It's just a return to the service (ish*) that ran until the mid 2000s since the 1980s (I think) opening of the Windsor Link.

* That pattern had one more fast and many if not most of the locals on the Manchester side only ran to Irlam. If I recall rightly (I used the line a lot in 1997-1998 and about weekly after that until 2001) it was an hourly TPE (Warrington, Birchwood), an hourly Norwich (Widnes, Warrington), an hourly Liverpool-Manchester Airport semifast (can't recall what all the stops were but I did use it a few times, it was typically a single Pacer and rammed in the AM peak) and the two 1tph locals at each end, Liverpool-Warrington and (Warrington-)Irlam-Manchester. The 0749 Norwich did Hunts Cross, Birchwood, Irlam and Urmston in addition to its normal stops if I recall, and there was something similar the other way in the evening too.

Well either one of the unions or Northern don't approve of the shuttle between Lime Street and Warrington Central, every such train has been cancelled today.

 

[scrapy]

Well either one of the unions or Northern don't approve of the shuttle between Lime Street and Warrington Central, every such train has been cancelled today.

Decisions regarding which trains to cancel due to short staffing are made by Northern not the unions.

Seems they are doing the same tommorow.

 

[DownUmmy]

OK here's a belter today from Northern. I caught the 10.38 from Gainsborough (1L52 ex Lincoln) already aware that there were signalling problems between Gainsborough & Retford. This resulted in about a 20 minute delay. However what happened next defied belief. The guard announced after leaving Retford that the train would terminate at Worksop. Not only that, the following hourly service had already been cancelled and the next available train to Sheffield would leave Worksop at 13.02 - effectively 2 hours late! Disgruntled passengers detrained at Worksop with the guard only able to tell us that there were signalling problems and that he had tried to get hold of control without success. I suspected that the intention was to turn the train round there & run back to Lincoln to recover the cancelled service but no, to everyones amazement the EMPTY unit (complete with full train crew) set off 10 minutes later and ran through to Sheffield (as 5L52 arriving 5 minutes later than original 1L52 timings). I have asked Northern for an explanation but doubt anyone could think of an acceptable reason to leave passengers for 2 hours when the train (& crew) ran anyway. RTT states service was cancelled between Worksop and Leeds 'due to an issue with the train crew' - the guard certainly wasn't aware of one at the time! I know some Northern staff are on here and if any of them can help it would be appreciated - I'm not holding my breath for any sense from Northern who on today's evidence don't give a flying f about passengers.

 

[87015]

Safety system not available = not able to run with passengers. Hardly 'defies belief'

 

[DownUmmy]

Safety system not available = not able to run with passengers. Hardly 'defies belief'

Would it have been an idea (& polite) to tell passengers that?

 

[Confused52]

Decisions regarding which trains to cancel due to short staffing are made by Northern not the unions.

Seems they are doing the same tommorow.

So why do Northern so often choose to cancel them from Liverpool, might it be because they have no choice perhaps?

 

[gazzaa2]

Well either one of the unions or Northern don't approve of the shuttle between Lime Street and Warrington Central, every such train has been cancelled today.

I just assume those trains will never run. The 07:10 from Warrington Central to Lime Street (pre-timetable) rarely ever run. That's now 06:44 and hasn't run once and rarely, if ever, will.

If you want to get a train at Warrington Central you'd better hope it's come from, or going to, Manchester Oxford Road, as splitting them at Warrington is just a roundabout way of saying we're not going to run that service.

I'd rather Merseyrail took over the Hunts Cross to Lime Street portion at least and maybe extended to Widnes/Warrington as Northern have no interest in serving trains past Warrington on that route.

 

[htafc]

Earlier today, a station announcent relayed that my Leeds-Wigan train was delayed due to a trespass incident earlier. Anyone know anything about it?

 

[skyhigh]

Earlier today, a station announcent relayed that my Leeds-Wigan train was delayed due to a trespass incident earlier. Anyone know anything about it?

Drunk person on the line, removed by BTP.

 

[htafc]

Drunk person on the line, removed by BTP.

Cheers

 

[Iskra]

Multiple cancellations and part cancellations at Sheffield this morning, should be an interesting day on the rails on a Northern only ticket…

 

[scrapy]

So why do Northern so often choose to cancel them from Liverpool, might it be because they have no choice perhaps?

As you can see from other posts in this thread trains are cancelled on many routes not just Liverpool. Northern will look at what resources they have and decide what to cancel based on that. Liverpool does seem to have a bad run at the moment. Earlier in the year Barrow and Windermere services went through similar. The unions do not have any input on which services Northern choose to cancel.

Routes like Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington are only signed by drivers at 2 depots (Liverpool and Piccadilly) and even then not all links at Piccadilly sign the route. Therefore if short they can't just get a driver from Wigan or Victoria for example. There are other routes that may be signed by drivers from 5 or 6 depots and have more options. Which depots sign which routes is decided by Northern management and the local union reps are often pressing for more routes for their respective depots.

 

[Peterthegreat]

It would appear that Northern are now cancelling trains without telling anyone. They do not appear on their website or on Journey Check as cancelled or amended. They are simple removed from the database (on RTT) and only show up when doing an online point to point enquiry on NRES.

 

[Confused52]

As you can see from other posts in this thread trains are cancelled on many routes not just Liverpool. Northern will look at what resources they have and decide what to cancel based on that. Liverpool does seem to have a bad run at the moment. Earlier in the year Barrow and Windermere services went through similar. The unions do not have any input on which services Northern choose to cancel.

Routes like Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington are only signed by drivers at 2 depots (Liverpool and Piccadilly) and even then not all links at Piccadilly sign the route. Therefore if short they can't just get a driver from Wigan or Victoria for example. There are other routes that may be signed by drivers from 5 or 6 depots and have more options. Which depots sign which routes is decided by Northern management and the local union reps are often pressing for more routes for their respective depots.

Thanks for your reply which is clear. It does appear that the problem is with Liverpool drivers in all probability as there was just one service which ran on Wednesday but only from Liverpool to Warrington and then went off to Oxford Road as ECS. I met a NR planner at the opening of Warrington West and who took a delight in saying that the service would be reduced. It has been and the promise of turn-rounds in the Integrated Rail review are, according to Rail North, now after electrification and re-signalling (i suppose because only Manchester and Liverpool have any clout). Whilst the need for signalling is clear to allow a turn-round if we have electrification then the SRTs will be lower anyway. NR refused to stop at Warrington West with either of the semi-fasts because it would add a 1 or 2 minute delay ignoring the horrendous mess at Sheffield and the Hope Valley. We have a new station with excellent foot-fall but a service that doesn't match the business case that the local council used to fund NR building the station. It was meant to relieve car parking at WAC but it can't without a semi-fast service.

 

[JD2168]

Northern Trains & other operators at Sheffield not helped today around midday due to a broken down freight train between Swinton & Doncaster causing delays of up to an hour.

 

[Sheridan]

I was at Lancaster yesterday planning to travel to Hellifield via the Bentham Line. My chosen train (the 1745) was not running, and neither was the 2030. In the end I went up to Carlisle and back down via Settle, which got me back sooner than hanging around for the 2131. This was a gap of 6h44 between direct trains, the previous one being at 1447. I will say that at least that last train did run, whether by luck or by Northern taking action to ensure it was covered, so at least no taxis or overnight accommodation were needed.

(I’m not sure if Northern (or indeed Avanti) would have been okay with me using the ticket to travel via Carlisle. I’d like to think so, but I’ll never know as my ticket wasn’t checked on either leg.)

 

[swissrailpassion]

First train from Hull to Scarborough and vv has disappeared from RTT. Not shown on cancellations.
What is going on?

 

[yorksrob]

I was at Lancaster yesterday planning to travel to Hellifield via the Bentham Line. My chosen train (the 1745) was not running, and neither was the 2030. In the end I went up to Carlisle and back down via Settle, which got me back sooner than hanging around for the 2131. This was a gap of 6h44 between direct trains, the previous one being at 1447. I will say that at least that last train did run, whether by luck or by Northern taking action to ensure it was covered, so at least no taxis or overnight accommodation were needed.

(I’m not sure if Northern (or indeed Avanti) would have been okay with me using the ticket to travel via Carlisle. I’d like to think so, but I’ll never know as my ticket wasn’t checked on either leg.)

The Bentham Line is usually very reliable when I use it, however I've noticed it's been subject to cancellations this week. Definitely a problem for services with long gaps.

 

[Peterthegreat]

First train from Hull to Scarborough and vv has disappeared from RTT. Not shown on cancellations.
What is going on?

Northern have taken out many trains this week from the timetable and not told anyone.

 

[td97]

First train from Hull to Scarborough and vv has disappeared from RTT. Not shown on cancellations.
What is going on?

Northern have taken out many trains this week from the timetable and not told anyone.

All are visible if you enable the "CAN" filter on RTT in detailed search mode. You need to be careful interpreting the cancellations though.
Services marked "VCN" are cancelled the day before, "this service is cancelled due to a short notice change to the timetable" type.
Services marked "CAN" are genuine cancellations, usually for engineering works.

 

[mike57]

First train from Hull to Scarborough and vv has disappeared from RTT. Not shown on cancellations.
What is going on?

Certainly didnt run, and niether has return service from Scarborough which gets to ours at 7.22. I was in the kitchen making a cuppa at about 6.15am when it goes up to Scarborough, and usually see/hear it.

 

[Peterthegreat]

All are visible if you enable the "CAN" filter on RTT in detailed search mode. You need to be careful interpreting the cancellations though.
Services marked "VCN" are cancelled the day before, "this service is cancelled due to a short notice change to the timetable" type.
Services marked "CAN" are genuine cancellations, usually for engineering works.

Thanks for the info. My main issue with this is the trains are not mentioned on the Northern Rail website nor that of Journey Check. Whether the trains are VCN or CAN matters not. They are cancelled. Even TPE shows these type of trains as cancelled.
As an aside the Northern MD told the Transport Select Committee last week they didn't do this!

 

[td97]

Whether the trains are VCN or CAN matters not.

It does. CAN usually affects early morning/late night services and should have a rail replacement bus provided in the timetable (usually funded by Network Rail). These are planned and published weeks/months in advance.
VCN, P-code and "short notice change to the timetable" are all the same and typically published a day in advance by the TOC. These are where Northern seem to absorb themselves of any responsibility of providing replacement transport or delay repay.

As an aside the Northern MD told the Transport Select Committee last week they didn't do this!

To be fair, east side Northern didn't practice this until recently. It was only west side Northern.

 

[Confused52]

It does. CAN usually affects early morning/late night services and should have a rail replacement bus provided in the timetable (usually funded by Network Rail). These are planned and published weeks/months in advance.
VCN, P-code and "short notice change to the timetable" are all the same and typically published a day in advance by the TOC. These are where Northern seem to absorb themselves of any responsibility of providing replacement transport or delay repay.

To be fair, east side Northern didn't practice this until recently. It was only west side Northern.

What I recall the Northern MD to have said was that they did not exclude the P-code cancellations from the ORR data so that they were included in the Calculated Performance Index for the TOC, TPE did not include them. He did not say that they did not use P-codes and they still do.

 

[Peterthegreat]

It does. CAN usually affects early morning/late night services and should have a rail replacement bus provided in the timetable (usually funded by Network Rail). These are planned and published weeks/months in advance.
VCN, P-code and "short notice change to the timetable" are all the same and typically published a day in advance by the TOC. These are where Northern seem to absorb themselves of any responsibility of providing replacement transport or delay repay.

To be fair, east side Northern didn't practice this until recently. It was only west side Northern.

To the general public the trains ARE cancelled. By not highlighting it Northern are negligent (as I said even TPE show them) and in breach of the industry wide "pledge" on information.
As soon as we are aware of a problem aff ecting your journey, we will: • update our digital information channels and stations/on train information screens with any cancellations, delays, or changes to the stations the train will call at • give you a reason for the alteration if the train is delayed by over ten minutes, if the train is cancelled or if we change the stations that the train will be calling at
So my question is why are Northern NOT showing these cancellations?

 

[nedchester]

Seems Northern have thrown in the towel for the 24th and 27th…..