Northern franchise awarded to Arriva.

[6Gman]

• I really don’t get the fascination with Nottingham to Carlisle (and then up the GSW to Glasgow... always up the GSW... :roll. It seems to crop up in these discussions pretty regularly. Never Derby to Carlisle, or Hull to Carlisle or even Bradford to Carlisle. Is there some amazing demand to get from Nottingham to Carlisle? Or is this just the usual “BR did it a generation ago, and it looks good on a map” approach?
  

It's because The Trent Clyde Express would look better on a headboard than The Humber Clyde Express!

 

[455driver]

So after taking on (and getting stung with) one franchise (Cross Country) they go and take on another high subsidy lame duck!

I wish them well but am not optimistic!

 

[yorksrob]

Is Northern that much of a lame duck though?

Everyone knows it's going to be subsidised. If they want to keep their credibility with the public, don't start price gouging.

(in other words, do the opposite of what they've done with XC!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

When you're limited in train paths, terminal capacity and platform lengths, wasting it on slow, short, low capacity, unreliable trains that can't work in multiple at longer lengths is the wrong idea.

You can have up to 6 cabs in a Sprinter/Pacer formation, which means a triple Pacer can run in service. That isn't a tiny train, equivalent to roughly 4x23m.

The plan to eliminate Pacers and significantly increase capacity is absolutely the right thing to do, as long as we continue to increase capacity by train lengthening and procuring additional units well into the future - that's something we can only ever do when we've got new units coming in from a new manufacturer and it's possible to order new carriages.

As long as we do, and we don't, as we did with TPE, stop there.

 

[bunnahabhain]

[*]I really don’t get the fascination with Nottingham to Carlisle (and then up the GSW to Glasgow... always up the GSW... :roll. It seems to crop up in these discussions pretty regularly. Never Derby to Carlisle, or Hull to Carlisle or even Bradford to Carlisle. Is there some amazing demand to get from Nottingham to Carlisle? Or is this just the usual “BR did it a generation ago, and it looks good on a map” approach?

I think it would have been a bit more popular prior to the Nottingham - Leeds service, if timed well it would be quicker than using Cross Country or East Coast services between the East Midlands, South Yorkshire and Leeds to Glasgow. If priced and timed well it would probably cover its costs, talking from experience there are quite a large number of passengers who do travel from the East Midlands to West Scotland, so that is probably why it keeps cropping up in discussions both on here and in more entrepreneurial circles.

 

[ag51ruk]

So after taking on (and getting stung with) one franchise (Cross Country) they go and take on another high subsidy lame duck!

I wish them well but am not optimistic!

While we're comparing to XC, I notice the promise that you will be able to purchase advance tickets up to 15 minutes before departure - so I guess on Connect services we can expect reservation displays that say "may be reserved later in journey" on most of the seats...

 

[WatcherZero]

Digital, data uploaded straight to the train.

 

[geoffk]

While we're comparing to XC, I notice the promise that you will be able to purchase advance tickets up to 15 minutes before departure - so I guess on Connect services we can expect reservation displays that say "may be reserved later in journey" on most of the seats...

Well spotted as this is one of the daftest ideas from Cross-Country. Let's hope User Groups get this one knocked on the head. Unless of course it means "up to 15 minutes before the start of the train's journey".

 

[Philip]

So what will the off peak service pattern through Bolton look like beyond December 2017 and what will be diesel and electric?

From what I've seen up to now, it looks along the lines of:

1 x EMU TPE Man Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh
1 x EMU NC Man Airport to Blackpool North
1 x DMU NC Manchester ? to Barrow/Windermere
1 x EMU local Man Vic to Blackpool North
1 x EMU local Hazel Grove to Preston
2 x EMU local Man Vic to Wigan Wallgate
2 x DMU local Man Vic to Blackburn/Clitheroe

Anything missing off there or are any of those wrong? What about cross-Manchester services from the Crewe and Stoke directions going on towards Preston?

 

[wigwamman]

Won't be EMU into Wallgate as there's no plans to electrify into Wallgate.

 

[JaJaWa]

I presume they will be able to sell the 15 minute advance tickets without a seat reservation (as they do with their current advances).

 

[mwmbwls]

So what will the off peak service pattern through Bolton look like beyond December 2017 and what will be diesel and electric?

From what I've seen up to now, it looks along the lines of:

1 x EMU TPE Man Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh
1 x EMU NC Man Airport to Blackpool North
1 x DMU NC Manchester ? to Barrow/Windermere
1 x EMU local Man Vic to Blackpool North
1 x EMU local Hazel Grove to Preston
2 x EMU local Man Vic to Wigan Wallgate
2 x DMU local Man Vic to Blackburn/Clitheroe

Anything missing off there or are any of those wrong? What about cross-Manchester services from the Crewe and Stoke directions going on towards Preston?

No Airport to Southport service?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are both the Southports not going via Atherton?

 

[thealexweb]

There's commitment for Bolton to have two trains to Stockport per hour from 2019 isn't there? Where will they go after that?

 

[northwichcat]

No Airport to Southport service?

Are both the Southports not going via Atherton?

Previous new stories/documents had hinted the Airport-Southport service and that there would be 2tph from Victoria to Southport via Atherton with a Kirkby-Wigan shuttle. The new franchise news confirms there will be an hourly Southport-Victoria-Bradford-Leeds Northern Connect service, so presumably that would be the faster service between Southport and Manchester.
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Because many Northern and TPE (moving to Northern) services are running over 30% PIXC, and there will be a sparks effect.

I'd be interested to see if this so called 'sparks effect' happens this time. Normally lines with potential for growth get electrification. This time the lines being electrified have already seen a lot of growth and we're seeing revisions to services.

If the TPE network had been electrified by 2006 and the new Desiros had been electric I'm sure some people would have claimed the high growth on TPE was down to electrification, when it's down to new trains, better reliability, a more clock face timetable and more demand for rail services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's commitment for Bolton to have two trains to Stockport per hour from 2019 isn't there? Where will they go after that?

It appears Hazel Grove will be getting 4tph most hours from the interactive map: http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html so possibly a half-hourly Hazel Grove to Bolton service?

I think it's a real shame that 4 paths are going to be used between Manchester and Hazel Grove every hour by Northern services and it's appears none of them are going to be used to enhance Sheffield services.

 

[Class 170101]

Won't be EMU into Wallgate as there's no plans to electrify into Wallgate.

I thought there was talk of making more use of the Up side bays at Wigan North Western.

 

[WatcherZero]

This proposed timetable is swinging pretty far in the opposite direction, North Westerns gonna be hammered by new services leaving Wallgate pretty quiet. At least three services an hour moving from Wallgate to North Western. 3tph westwards from Wallgate (Kirkby and 2x Southport) eastwards cant really tell yet, 4tph to Manchester from North Western (Barrrow via Atherton, Chat Moss Airport, 2x Electric via Bolton).

Total Wigan Manchester 7
4x Atherton
2x Bolton
1x Chat Moss

 

[lejog]

Previous new stories/documents had hinted the Airport-Southport service and that there would be 2tph from Victoria to Southport via Atherton with a Kirkby-Wigan shuttle. The new franchise news confirms there will be an hourly Southport-Victoria-Bradford-Leeds Northern Connect service, so presumably that would be the faster service between Southport and Manchester. .......

No not Northern Connect, most likely to be joined to the current Leeds-Brighouse stopper for most of the day, through Bradford during rush hours. Both the Chester and Southport services are shown as routed to Leeds both via Bradford and Dewsbury, with the Chester service described as going via Bradford most of the day.

I've speculated earlier in the thread as to what this means.

 

[northwichcat]

Barrrow via Atherton, Chat Moss Airport

Based on this

1 fast Northern Connect service train per hour to/from Manchester Oxford Road, Piccadilly and the Airport (replacing the TransPennine Express service which currently operates on this route, but which will revert to operating via Bolton from December 2017)

And considering Arriva have said they'll be 12 'Northern Connect' routes I think it means either:
1. Airport to Barrow services will go via Chat Moss.
2. Airport to Barrow services will go via Wigan (not via Chat Moss) but not call at any stations between Oxford Rd and Wigan.

Your idea of both would make Wigan to Manchester Airport via Chat Moss a 13th Northern Connect route.

Number 1 sounds probable given Barrow services won't run every hour and some hours they'll be a Windermere service in lieu. (Sending Windermere via Chat Moss will allow it to be fully electric once Oxenholme-Windermere is wired.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No not Northern Connect, most likely to be joined to the current Leeds-Brighouse stopper for most of the day, through Bradford during rush hours. Both the Chester and Southport services are shown as routed to Leeds both via Bradford and Dewsbury, with the Chester service described as going via Bradford most of the day.

Oh yes Liverpool to Bradford/Leeds will be Northern Connect but Southport to Bradford won't be. Leeds/Bradford to Manchester Airport and Chester will both be Northern Connect routes, as will York to Blackpool so the Southport service will be a bit of a strange one being an ordinary Northern service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Seen posted elsewhere that LM are expected to take on some of the released FGW 153s and will release their 150/1s, which will allow Northern to take on all the 150/1s by the time FGW are releasing theirs as well.

 

[WatcherZero]

The map shows the Barrow/Windermere via Atherton, of course Windermere wont be wired for at least another five years (post Dec 2019). Their website blurb says windermere/Barrow will be operated by new 100mph trains from 2019 while the timeline suggests the last batch of new stock arriving in 2021. So I think its pretty likely Windermere will be operated by the same diesel stock as Barrow from commencement of franchise until 2021.

 

[geoffk]

Liverpool to Bradford/Leeds will be Northern Connect but Southport to Bradford won't be. Leeds/Bradford to Manchester Airport and Chester will both be Northern Connect routes, as will York to Blackpool so the Southport service will be a bit of a strange one being an ordinary Northern service.

So ordinary in fact that it will actually stop at useful stations like Sowerby Bridge, Littleborough and Smithy Bridge. Sorry to appear cynical but these are quite busy stations deserving a better service and with Northern Connect predominating on the Calder Valley it's not looking promising. But there's no detail yet and we will have to wait and see.

 

[lejog]

Oh yes Liverpool to Bradford/Leeds will be Northern Connect but Southport to Bradford won't be. Leeds/Bradford to Manchester Airport and Chester will both be Northern Connect routes, as will York to Blackpool so the Southport service will be a bit of a strange one being an ordinary Northern service.

Along of course with the current Burnley stopper, which is already routed west of Victoria, so doesn't get a mention in the maps.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So ordinary in fact that it will actually stop at useful stations like Sowerby Bridge, Littleborough and Smithy Bridge. Sorry to appear cynical but these are quite busy stations deserving a better service and with Northern Connect predominating on the Calder Valley it's not looking promising. But there's no detail yet and we will have to wait and see.

Sowerby Bridge and Mytholmroyd already get a service which will become Northern Connect and I wouldn't be surprised to see it provide a much faster rush hour service to Leeds (thats my interpretation of the Chester to Leeds map). But you are absolutely correct that stations between Todmorden and Rochdale have had no improvements in service over the last 10 years (indeed have had services to Halifax and Bradford axed in favour of Burnley and Dewsbury) and aren't mentioned here.

 

[northwichcat]

The map shows the Barrow/Windermere via Atherton, of course Windermere wont be wired for at least another five years (post Dec 2019). Their website blurb says windermere/Barrow will be operated by new 100mph trains from 2019 while the timeline suggests the last batch of new stock arriving in 2021. So I think its pretty likely Windermere will be operated by the same diesel stock as Barrow from commencement of franchise until 2021.

The map also doesn't show any Manchester-Wigan via Chat Moss service so in that case presumably the replacement Wigan to Manchester Airport service will run express via Atherton opposed to Chat Moss.

Given the eastern end of Chat Moss will be getting an additional service (the Northern Connect Chester service) routing the fast Wigan service via Atherton makes sense to free up a path for it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Along of course with the current Burnley stopper, which is already routed west of Victoria, so doesn't get a mention in the maps.

And Huddersfield-Bradford/Leeds which also only runs on part of the Calder Vale route.

 

[lejog]

And Huddersfield-Bradford/Leeds which also only runs on part of the Calder Vale route.

Also presumably the new Leeds to Halifax service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Has anyone noticed that the map covering Manchester to Sheffield services connects both Victoria and Piccadilly to Sheffield? What state is the line east of Manchester in?

I suppose that would provide a use for the east facing bays at Victoria, unless they route Blackburn/Wigan services that way.

 

[onlinespotting]

A note to tbtc about Scarborough services. The current Blackpool North to York service was originally run to Scarborough under Northern Spirit and was branded separately to the TPE , service, also under Northern Spirit there were trains that ran beyond Hull to Filey and Bridlington. Northern Spirit was Arriva Trains Northern's trading name and although they ran the North TPE services they were always branded separately.

Arriva Trains Northern as you may know, were the TOC for broadly the east of the Pennines.

 

[northwichcat]

A note to tbtc about Scarborough services. The current Blackpool North to York service was originally run to Scarborough under Northern Spirit and was branded separately to the TPE , service, also under Northern Spirit there were trains that ran beyond Hull to Filey and Bridlington. Northern Spirit was Arriva Trains Northern's trading name and although they ran the North TPE services they were always branded separately.

Arriva Trains Northern as you may know, were the TOC for broadly the east of the Pennines.

ATN did do the timetable for Blackpool-Yorkshire services in a burgundy colour with their 'transpenninexpress' logo. Although on those services and Manchester-Hull they didn't guarantee 1st class accommodation as some services got 156s or 158/9s (or even 144s or 155s on occasions.)

 

[onlinespotting]

ATN did do the timetable for Blackpool-Yorkshire services in a burgundy colour with their 'transpenninexpress' logo. Although on those services and Manchester-Hull they didn't guarantee 1st class accommodation as some services got 156s or 158/9s (or even 144s or 155s on occasions.)

I was never sure if they were ran on whichever 158 was available as I recall seeing them in 'Metro' liveried 158's a lot of the time. However the route was exactly the same as now except it ran all stations to Scarorough after York

 

[AndyW33]

A note to tbtc about Scarborough services. The current Blackpool North to York service was originally run to Scarborough under Northern Spirit and was branded separately to the TPE , service, also under Northern Spirit there were trains that ran beyond Hull to Filey and Bridlington. Northern Spirit was Arriva Trains Northern's trading name and although they ran the North TPE services they were always branded separately.

Arriva Trains Northern as you may know, were the TOC for broadly the east of the Pennines.

Northern Spirit was the brand used by MTL, the holders of the North East franchise before Arriva. North East in this case included the whole of Yorkshire, being the privatised Regional Railways North East.
When Arriva took over the franchise it took several years before all the Northern Spirit liveried rolling stock was repainted to Arriva livery, but they didn't use Northern Spirit as a brand name in advertising etc.

 

[Greybeard33]

The map also doesn't show any Manchester-Wigan via Chat Moss service so in that case presumably the replacement Wigan to Manchester Airport service will run express via Atherton opposed to Chat Moss.

Given the eastern end of Chat Moss will be getting an additional service (the Northern Connect Chester service) routing the fast Wigan service via Atherton makes sense to free up a path for it.

Well, the map is clearly wrong showing the Windermere service running via Atherton, because the text says it will go electric as soon as the wires are up. The Train Service Requirement from Dec 2017 is for 4tph to stop at both Atherton and Walkden, so none of those are likely to be a Northern Connect fast service - more likely the 4th one will be a Wallgate terminator. And I thought the Atherton line re-signalling was only for 4tph? So I suspect both the Windermere and Barrow services will run via the Chat Moss line.

 

[wigwamman]

The Barrow -MIA service could run via Bolton once Westhoughton is wired ?