Northern franchise awarded to Arriva.

[northwichcat]

Surely it should be something like:
http://www.oxfam.org.uk/donate/donate-goods
or:
http://about.hm.com/en/About/sustainability/commitments/reduce-waste/garment-collecting.html

 

[Tetchytyke]

A note to tbtc about Scarborough services. The current Blackpool North to York service was originally run to Scarborough under Northern Spirit and was branded separately to the TPE

Not quite. TransPennine Express was a brand of Northern Spirit/Arriva Trains Northern, with a special livery. The TPE branded routes were Blackpool North to Scarborough, Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport, and Liverpool/Manchester to York/Hull/Scarborough/Middlesbrough/Newcastle/Sunderland.

The Blackpool North route often saw the MetroTrain branded 158s as it was the only route to not have first class accommodation, but it was still a TPE branded route.

When Arriva took over the franchise it took several years before all the Northern Spirit liveried rolling stock was repainted to Arriva livery, but they didn't use Northern Spirit as a brand name in advertising etc.

Much of the stock never received Arriva livery- only the 142s and the 153s received the Arriva corporate livery. The 156s were still running in Northern Spirit livery for several years into the Northern franchise.

Which is what I think will happen this time. I think Arriva will keep the existing Northern branding whilst they're using the same clapped-out pacers on the same routes as always. I still think they'll put more of their own stamp on to it once the new trains arrive, so everyone knows who they are just in time for the PR campaign for the new franchise in 2022.

 

[ashworth]

Is there any demand there?
I know this may not be representative of loadings across the day but I was in York on Tuesday, and the 1106 to Sheffield left with 2 passengers. Now this was probably too early for the peak loading, given that had just brought the morning service in I guess majority of people will arrive on that one, and go back later in the day. I wonder if an am/pm peak service would offer any growth on this route? There's always the fact that the units could be more profitably used elsewhere, much like at present.

The current service does not really meet any needs at all and so no wonder very few people use these trains. There is no service in the morning or evening peak and so it cannot be used by commuters. It is of little use for leisure travel or shopping trips to Meadowhall or Sheffield because although you can make the outward journey in the morning there is no return service after 1330. York is little better with the last return departure being at 1506. There will not be any demand on a service where you can travel to a destination but can't make a return journey.

Numerous times I've heard of people suggesting a 2 hourly service ought to run on this line. Perhaps there wouldn't be enough demand for this. However, just a retiming of the current 2 trains each way so that they do provide a return journey or perhaps an extra couple of trains each way at morning and evening peak times would test if there is a demand.

 

[po8crg]

Which is what I think will happen this time. I think Arriva will keep the existing Northern branding whilst they're using the same clapped-out pacers on the same routes as always. I still think they'll put more of their own stamp on to it once the new trains arrive, so everyone knows who they are just in time for the PR campaign for the new franchise in 2022.

I think that "Northern Connect" will be a brand only on new trains (and perhaps some refurbished higher-quality stock; 158s or any 17xs) and may be a bit more Arriva-ish than than the Northern brand. Green NC and purple Northern would make for a heck of a strong contrast.

If they can get people believing that Northern are still running most services but Arriva are running Northern Connect, then Arriva are going to look really good by comparison, which would be smart for the refranchise.

 

[northwichcat]

If they can get people believing that Northern are still running most services but Arriva are running Northern Connect, then Arriva are going to look really good by comparison, which would be smart for the refranchise.

Depends. First have now got a reputation of operating modern trains in the North by having TPE but they also have a reputation of running services with far too few carriages due to how popular TPE services are. So much so that when they won the West Coast bidding some people in the North West started saying First will be probably be running services with less carriages than Virgin had been using.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Bit of a bad headline from the Chester Chronicle

Arriva plan 100mph trains from Chester to Manchester by 2019

http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/n...ws/arriva-plan-100mph-trains-chester-10581810

I think they're over 10 years behind.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Bit of a bad headline from the Chester Chronicle

http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/n...ws/arriva-plan-100mph-trains-chester-10581810

I think they're over 10 years behind.

Yes, I did leave a comment but apparently it is still waiting moderation

 

[IanXC]

I thought just the opposite. An hourly Northern service in addition to the hourly TPX service means the latter can be non-stop to York. The stops at Seamer, Malton and prospective York suburbs stops, plus the coast connections all being served by Northern.

Not sure what TP would think about losing their share of the revenue though..

I would absolutely agree about the York suburbs stops - TPE might put up with Haxby given the demographic it serves but surely not the others.

Seamer is really Scarborough Parkway, many, many people drive from parts of Scarborough and the surrounding area to catch a train to Leeds. And they turn up buying Anytime Returns by the bucket load. My observations suggest whereas most of Scarborough's traffic is to York, most of Seamers is to Leeds, I really don't see TPE giving it up!

 

[northwichcat]

As things stand at the moment we appear to have a lot of spare 170's and 185's with no where to go

I expect Northern will take on any 170s released from Scotland which aren't earmarked/secured by other operators. The new order and electrification will only go half way towards Pacer withdrawal.

Some people comment on 170s not being suitable for stopping services. However, when tram-trains on the Mid-Cheshire line were looked in to an alternative heavy rail option was looked at, the alternative being 170s. (It was done before 172s were introduced.) 142s/Sprinters currently are timed to take 33 minutes* to do Greenbank to Altrincham (where there's no running at over 75mph) and it's believed a 170 could do it in 27 minutes.

* 150s sometimes arrive early at stations but that is very rare with a 142.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could a 170 be re-geared to 75mph or even 60mph if used on Northern Pacer replacement at a reasonable cost, retaining the old gearboxes so they could be put back to 100mph if necessary? That would solve the problem - the reason they are sluggish is that they are underpowered for 100mph, but most Pacer routes have no case for 100mph running, faster acceleration would be more use.

 

[anti-pacer]

Well depends what you mean by improving the North of England, I doubt it will improve the **** weather, or the thick, blunt, ignorant Yorkshireman that infest the place (Note I am Yorkshire myself so I can say that) but you should get some better trains.

Hahahahahahahahahaha!

That was certainly the case at King's Cross on Saturday when they were told they were having their drinks confiscated prior to boarding.

In fairness these were Leeds fans, but as a Yorkshire-born guy myself, I felt like ripping up my birth certificate. :roll:

 

[northwichcat]

Could a 170 be re-geared to 75mph or even 60mph if used on Northern Pacer replacement at a reasonable cost, retaining the old gearboxes so they could be put back to 100mph if necessary?

If they have better acceleration than Pacers as they are then why bother?

Limiting them to 60mph would restrict them to certain lines, while if they are kept as they are they would pretty much be versatile enough to work anything including filling in on Northern Connect routes.

 

[D6975]

I would absolutely agree about the York suburbs stops - TPE might put up with Haxby given the demographic it serves but surely not the others.

Seamer is really Scarborough Parkway, many, many people drive from parts of Scarborough and the surrounding area to catch a train to Leeds. And they turn up buying Anytime Returns by the bucket load. My observations suggest whereas most of Scarborough's traffic is to York, most of Seamers is to Leeds, I really don't see TPE giving it up!

Fair enough, I wasn’t aware that there was so much Seamer-Leeds traffic, Seamer’s always been quiet when I’ve passed through, but then it’s usually been off peak when I’ve done so.

The Man Picc - York section seems absolutely saturated with commuter traffic though, even mid afternoon trains seem to be full.

 

[RoundNewcastle]

The Man Picc - York section seems absolutely saturated with commuter traffic though, even mid afternoon trains seem to be full.

Its the same all the way to Newcastle throughout the day on Transpenines, thankfully there will be a Half Hourly Transpennine to Newcastle from 2017.
If the Leamside line opens, To supplement the Half Hourly I think Northern should extend the Blackpool North service to Newcastle running via Stillington then Leamside to Newcastle?

 

[47802]

I expect Northern will take on any 170s released from Scotland which aren't earmarked/secured by other operators. The new order and electrification will only go half way towards Pacer withdrawal.

Some people comment on 170s not being suitable for stopping services. However, when tram-trains on the Mid-Cheshire line were looked in to an alternative heavy rail option was looked at, the alternative being 170s. (It was done before 172s were introduced.) 142s/Sprinters currently are timed to take 33 minutes* to do Greenbank to Altrincham (where there's no running at over 75mph) and it's believed a 170 could do it in 27 minutes.

* 150s sometimes arrive early at stations but that is very rare with a 142.

Well you may be right I don't see how the numbers will really add up without 170's unless there is some other train not yet mentioned

 

[northwichcat]

Its the same all the way to Newcastle throughout the day on Transpenines, thankfully there will be a Half Hourly Transpennine to Newcastle from 2017.

I don't think there will given the Airport services will alternate between Newcastle and Middlesbrough and the Liverpool services will alternate between Scarborough and Edinburgh via Newcastle. Manchester-Newcastle (direct) will probably be something like xx:30, then xx:45, with something like an xx:00 option involving a change at Leeds.

 

[geoffk]

My observations suggest whereas most of Scarborough's traffic is to York, most of Seamers is to Leeds, I really don't see TPE giving it up!

Unlikely TPE would give up Malton or Seamer but Malton at least would seem to justify two trains an hour. New platform needed?

 

[Class 170101]

and would they be able to serve both Doncaster and Pontefract? If not, then Doncaster clearly trumps Pontefract.

Baghill cannot be served directly from Doncaster. Only Monkhill and Tanshelf but would easily add 30 minutes to the schedule if not more as you would have to double back via Knottingley and Turners Lane Jn.

 

[Bevan Price]

Originally Posted by Bevan Price View Post
It is a sort of chicken / egg situation. Is there low demand because the service is so lousy (and has been for many years) - or would a decent service attract a lot more passengers ?

Pontefract Baghill once had stops on some long distance express services. Might it be sensible if Baghill had some stops on Cross Country services ? Not hourly, but maybe every 2-3 hours ?

When did Baghill have these stops? Prior to the Selby diversion I assume... There's some merit in the idea but the problems it could throw up might mean it'd be a phyrric victory: the calls would have to be from the via Doncaster services (diverting away from Leeds is a non-starter) and would they be able to serve both Doncaster and Pontefract? If not, then Doncaster clearly trumps Pontefract. Adding calls to services which are already overcrowded might not be the best laid plan either...

The number of calls at Pontefract Baghill diminished over the years. Without searching through lots of old timetables, I am not sure when they finally disappeared, but probably during the 1980s.

For example, these were the 1971 Northbound departures from Pontefract Baghill on (summer) saturdays. A similar number of trains ran southbound:-

07:51 (07:03 Sheffield - York)
09:13 (08:26 Sheffield - Scarborough)
09:31 (08:45 Sheffield - Bridlington)
09:47 (07:35 Birmingham New St - Scarborough; to York only SX and SO in winter)
11:39 (10:55 Sheffield - York)
13:17 (05:40 Plymouth - York / Scarborough)
15:38 (08:40 Paignton - Newcastle)
16:16 (15:32 Sheffield - York)
17:13 (10:29 Poole - Newcastle)
17:57 (11:00 Poole - York)
18:02 (13:35 Cardiff - Newcastle)
19:26 (18:42 Sheffield - York)
18:48 (09:50 Newquay - Newcastle)
20:08 (15:50 Bristol - Newcastle)
22:22 (17:35 Cardiff - York)

So - a lot more than just 2 locals per day each way.....

And remember, the 1970s equivalents of cross country services were a lot less frequent than the current XC regular interval services.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Baghill cannot be served directly from Doncaster. Only Monkhill and Tanshelf but would easily add 30 minutes to the schedule if not more as you would have to double back via Knottingley and Turners Lane Jn.

Didn't think so, thanks. I knew the Askern line would be an option to serve Monkhill but it's slow and as you say would require a reversal somewhere. I really don't think Pontefract is a big enough place for the amount of disruption it would cause. On the bright side, with the Knottingley to Kirkgate services being extended to Leeds via Westgate, connecting into cross-country services should be easier.

 

[Mintona]

Surely it should be something like:
http://www.oxfam.org.uk/donate/donate-goods
or:
http://about.hm.com/en/About/sustainability/commitments/reduce-waste/garment-collecting.html

No, it's not generally considered a good idea to let any old Tom, Dick or Harry get their hands on a railway uniform.

 

[LowLevel]

I believe the surplus Central Trains uniform did indeed end up in Africa having been donated to charity when the franchise ended.

 

[northwichcat]

I believe the surplus Central Trains uniform did indeed end up in Africa having been donated to charity when the franchise ended.

Maybe Nigerian railways staff are working in a Central uniform?

 

[po8crg]

I believe the surplus Central Trains uniform did indeed end up in Africa having been donated to charity when the franchise ended.

This is a pretty common practice for clothing that can't be used - including some new clothing. In America, sports teams sell T-shirts and caps that say things like "Team: 2009 Champions" on them. These have to be made before the final, for both teams - so the ones for the losing team get shipped off to Africa, since no-one would actually want a shirt claiming your team won when you actually lost.

 

[DarloRich]

I am very optimistic that this franchise could deliver a real step change in service provision in Northern land coupled with "new" (brand new or second hand new?) stock being procured to enhance existing services. The end of pacers will be celebrated widely! perhaps you might now pay realistic fares like the rest of us

There are also real, tangible, significant, LOCAL improvements on lines like Cumbrian Coast, Little North Western, S&C, Esk Valley, The Tees Valley line ( all of it!) York - Scarborough etc etc and the provision of more "express" services - it really looks like good news!

I will try and keep my comments to areas of the franchise i have some connection with:

Interesting reading about half-hourly Middlesbrough to Newcastle benefiting Stockton as quoted, seems strange to just mention Stockton. Are these services continuing up the coast or Stillington branch? I say this as no mention about Hartlepool receiving half hourly services. Great to see announcement finally out!

Using the Stillington line would give an instant 15-20 min saving on Middlesbrough-Newcastle journey times, so it's possible I suppose.

I'm disappointed there are no plans for a Northern service linking Teesside to York. A Hartlepool-York Stopper (HPL-SEC-BIL-STK-EAG-YRM-NTR-THI-YRK), would create some very useful journey opportunities.

I am intrigued to see how they sort this Middlesbrough to Carlisle service, if it runs via Ferryhill then I reckon it could be done in around 2 hours 25 end to end - so 4 hour 50 for a return trip with no layover. Doing this with 5 units would be very risky in terms of reliability, but it would seem a waste to give them half hour turn around at each end and utilise a 6th unit (158s). I wonder if they will send these to Nunthorpe which would use up another 35 mins or so at the Middlesbrough end, giving 25 minutes layover each hour to be split between the two termini.

This would allow them to use just 6 units on a Middlesbrough - Hartlepool - Newcastle - Carlisle stopper with around 30 mins layover, instead of running to Nunthorpe and requiring a 7th unit.

It isn't going run via Stillington surely. Is that route even signaled to passenger standards?

Is the proposal not for a "Northern Connect" service between Boro and Newcastle via Darlo and the ECML using what i assume will be 158's AND an enhanced stopper via the coast using what i assume are 156's. I hope the ATN -) ) 158's get an ATW style interior!


I see the point about south facing connections form the coast but with an enhanced services on the TPE arm of the franchise AND better services on the connecting locals will that need not be answered?

I would like to see some sort of link York and Darlington but that is entirely selfish and personal and based on cost and competetion

Reckon we will see a 158 down our end on one of the early morning Newcastle services? I know they aren't coast services, but still.......

I was wondering about that. Presumably all the crews in the North East are going to end up signing them due to the interworking so I could easily see a 158 coming down to Saltburn to run the service back to Newcastle via Darlington. In fact doesn't that unit then form a Carlisle service?!

Feel free to chuck one on a Bishops service, especially about 11:00 on a Saturday As Ainsworth says inter-working is going to mean them turning up on early or late turns i would assume

I notice that York - Scarborough gets an hourly Northern in addition to the TPE.

Some really good news for some of my favourite routes. Hopefully the Whitby branch will get a few more additionals.

GREAT news on these routes offering realistic commuting options, community links and greater service provision

Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, but the transformation of the Calder Valley services seems amazing. I expected significant improvements over the services described in the ITT document, but this seems incredible. The improvements are dispersed over different maps, but it seem to me that:

1. There will be 3tph Bradford to Manchester services (for most of the day), it is implied that the new service being an extra semi fast service calling at Halifax, Hebden Bridge and Todmorden (not Rochdale?)(Bradford map)
2. 2 of these trains will be extended to Liverpool via Newton-le-Willows and Manchester Airport using new rolling stock and will be Northern Connect Services (Bradford Map)
3. There will be a new extra Halifax to Leeds service, presumably utilising the new platform to be built at Halifax (Bradford map)
4, A greatly improved evening service (good news for me since currently after 7pm the line reverts to its 1970s pattern of 1tph all station stoppers)(Bradford map)

Here the fun begins - improvements described on other maps:

5. Blackpool to York services will also be new rolling stock Northern Connect services (Blackpool map).
6. A new Bradford Interchange to Nottingham Northern Connect service via Leeds, Wakefield, and Sheffield (Leeds-Nottingham map)
7. There will be a Chester to Leeds new rolling stock Northern Connect service (Chester map). This will presumably be the 3rd tph mentioned in point 1, although the map shows services running both through Bradford and Dewsbury. This does imply to me that at during rush hours this service will run via fast from Calder Valley stations to Leeds (e.g. Hebden Bridge to Leeds is possible in 30mins compared to 48mins via Bradford). Perhaps this is wishful thinking on my part, but this has been an aspiration of Calderdale Council and WYMetro for some time.
8. A service (presumably the via Brighouse stopper, its the only service left!) will be extended to Southport (Southport map).

So mostly extremely good news with new rolling stock on 5 Northern Connect services and all Victoria services extended to destinations west (not unexpected but the east facing bays at Victoria are going to be rather empty). Less good news for the stopping services with only a new Halifax to Leeds service and 1 extra tph at Moston promised. Certain posters on the Todmorden Curve thread will be disappointed that there is no mention of speeding up the Burnley service or new rolling stock(!). No mention either of Rochdale terminators from the west, although there presumably will be some.

That really is incredible service provision and connectivity and makes a vast improvement on the current situation AND real competition to TPE on the Standedge route.


But it is most of the routes around leeds seeing a service improvement although the big losers seem to be the likes of Marsden on the route between Leeds, Hudds and Piccadilly.

What does concern me is fitting all of these trains through the infrastructure at places Like Holbeck, Engine Shed, Armley & Whitehall Junctions!

I was just wondering about what would happen if, come December 31st 2019, there are not enough units or trains to replace the pacers - could some be granted dispensation?

that should be on the franchise risk register as they have made such publicity about the promise to remove all pacers by that date. Failure would be reputationaly very damaging. Imagine a few procurement/build/testing delays and 2019 becomes 2020 becomes 2021....

When's East West Rail due to be done? Bedford-Bletchley, on which 2x23m doesn't fit the platforms but a single 153 is not enough for the school trains, is probably their mainstay. I suppose that until then they could take on 3 x 2-car D-trains and run the line as a self-contained "mini franchise" in the manner of the Stourbridge Shuttle. Having a spare at Bletchley would certainly improve the service on the line.

Back on topic for Northern, I guess this is another case of consolidating a particular unit type on a smaller number of TOCs which will make the ROSCOs' lives easier.

I was skimming through an article in the latest Todays Railways in WH Smith today about Tyseley depot and there was a paragraph in there about London Midland releasing their 3 remaining Class 150 DMUs to Northern in 2017. Quite what will replace them is anybodies guess (Class 230?) but there is another 6 vehicles for Northern in 2017.
.

While OT for this thread this would be not popular on the vale. Reliability has been much improved despite correspondents suggestions otherwise. I think we would prefer 2 x 150!

 

[Bletchleyite]

There needs to be a spare DMU at Bletchley. Without it any serious fault knocks half the service out for about 4 hours. Any solution that allows 3 DMUs to be at Bletchley each day is better than the current one, IMO.

 

[northwichcat]

I heard LM would get 6 x 153s from FGW if they lost the 150s but the plan makes sense as LM would have one type of Sprinter in their fleet (153s) and all the 150/1s would be at Northern. LM would also gain any units freed up by Bromsgrove electrification.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The end of pacers will be celebrated widely! perhaps you might now pay realistic fares like the rest of us

Can you make any post about Pacers without going on about low fares in the North?

Can we have daily caps and cheap single fares as are offered to passengers paying by contactless on TfL services? I paid £10.60 for a single journey of 25 miles on a Northern service at the weekend, on a TfL service that wouldn't have costed no more than £4. In London I would have paid just 30p more for unlimited all day travel in zones 1-5!

 

[DarloRich]

Can you make any post about Pacers without going on about low fares in the North?

Can we have daily caps and cheap single fares as are offered to passengers paying by contactless on TfL services? I paid £10.60 for a single journey of 25 miles on a Northern service at the weekend, on a TfL service that wouldn't have costed no more than £4.

Can you develop a sense of humour?

BTW A daily cap is of no interest to me in LM land. My Oyster card is of little use there. Useful book mark though.

 

[northwichcat]

Can you develop a sense of humour?

BTW A daily cap is of no interest to me in LM land. My Oyster card is of little use there. Useful book mark though.

Based on the number of examples you have researched and posted in previous threads I don't think you were saying it just as a joke despite the emojli.

Like the 'rest of us' implies like the rest of the country, not just your specific route.

 

[DarloRich]

Based on the number of examples you have researched and posted in previous threads I don't think you were saying it just as a joke despite the emojli.

Like the 'rest of us' implies like the rest of the country, not just your specific route.

:roll: The answer is no then. But whatever - sorry that providing evidence to back up a view point is so inconvenient for you :roll: Anyway that is off topic.

 

[northwichcat]

:roll: Whatever - sorry that providing evidence to back up a view point is so inconvenient for you :roll: Anyway that is off topic.

But when I pointed out the Bedford-Bletchley line is cheaper than a lot of Northern routes you effectively stuck your finger in your ears and said "LA LA LA NOT MY ROUTE!"