Northern franchise awarded to Arriva.

[sprinterguy]

At the time the report was done, it was 3 VTEC plus Alliance's Edinburgh OA proposal. VTEC's franchise agreement is for 2 Edinburgh and 1 Newcastle per hour. Since the report there is also First Group's OA proposal as well.

Ah, fair enough - I had forgotten about the open access proposals.

 

[Paul Duck]

Agree with CLS needing more stops. The amount of people travelling to Newcastle is huge, especially this time of year and when Newcastle are at home. The argument about the TP service which doesn't stop every other hour not having time to stop at CLS surely can't be true. Seem to manage special stop orders at Thirsk when they need to on a Saturday when huge amount of numbers are travelling to York. Hoping they (First) come and see the sardine cans at CLS to see for themselves how needed extra trains are at CLS.
Grand Central have used the Stillington Branch a few time in previous years. Will be interesting to find out, hopefully in the new year, which way they are going from Stockton. I hope Arriva meant Stockton and not Thornaby . Thornaby every 30 minutes would make a lot more sense.

All will become clear I hope in the next month or so.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But how are you going to fit in a 100mph diesel path in that?

Through more intelligent use of the loops at Durham, especially the northbound loop, I would say. Chester-le-Street needs at least an hourly service, and TPE isn't really the best operator for that if TPE have proper designs on becoming an intercity operator.

 

[XC victim]

Agreed an hourly service operated by a 150 is a lot better than a hourly service where you could get either a 142 or a 150.

Many Northern routes will still be mainly operated by 150s at the end of the next franchise so while the new DMUs and Pacer withdrawal are good news it doesn't mean high quality stock for all routes. All it means is the existing 150s and any cascaded 150s which join them will have to be refurbished to a better standard than they are currently in.

Am I the only person who would actually prefer a pacer over a class 150. I have always found the class 150 to be a deeply unpleasant ride.

 

[northwichcat]

Am I the only person who would actually prefer a pacer over a class 150. I have always found the class 150 to be a deeply unpleasant ride.

Probably not the only person but I don't like to see a Pacer arrive over a 150 for a few reasons:
1. Less seats meaning more chance I have to stand.
2. High pitched squealing on sharp bends.
3. Low backed seating opposed to high back seating.
4. Poorer ride quality.
5. Pacers are less likely to make up lost time due to poorer acceleration and less doors.
6. More drafty.

 

[sprinterguy]

Am I the only person who would actually prefer a pacer over a class 150. I have always found the class 150 to be a deeply unpleasant ride.

If the train isn't excessively busy (full and standing) then I would rather a high-backed (ex-Northern Spirit) or bench seated 142, or one of the Richmond seated 144s, over any of Northern's 150s, where the original Ashbourne seats fitted to a fair contingent are atrocious and the former First North Western refurbished units just seem to be lacking something or other.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Am I the only person who would actually prefer a pacer over a class 150. I have always found the class 150 to be a deeply unpleasant ride.

No, I would also take a pacer

 

[sprinterguy]

Probably not the only person but I don't like to see a Pacer arrive over a 150 for a few reasons:
...
3. Low backed seating opposed to high back seating.
...

Do you consider that the Ashbourne seats, fitted to half the 150s that Northern operate, offer any sort of back support? hock: Not only are they low backed, they also seem to be excessively low to the floor.

 

[northwichcat]

If the train isn't excessively busy (full and standing) then I would rather a high-backed (ex-Northern Spirit) or bench seated 142, or one of the Richmond seated 144s, over any of Northern's 150s, where the original Ashbourne seats fitted to a fair contingent are atrocious and the former First North Western refurbished units just seem to be lacking something or other.

On a Manchester bound service from my local station even off-peak it's quite often a case of not enough seats for everyone to sit down if a 142 shows up (which unfortunately is too common.)

 

[XC victim]

Don't get me wrong I don't have any love for the pacers, but of the years they have undergone several refurbishments, meaning that the seat is now much improved even if they are unable to improve the ride quality and squeal from sharp bends.

I have travelled on northern class150 a couple times recently on the Leeds to Lancaster line and they appear to have exactly same faults as when they were introduced 30 years ago. The seats were broken, you were blasted with either hot or cold air and for some reason the windows were filthy and impossible to see through.

 

[sprinterguy]

Don't get me wrong I don't have any love for the pacers, but of the years they have undergone several refurbishments, meaning that the seat is now much improved even if they are unable to improve the ride quality and squeal from sharp bends.

To get with the pantomime vibe prevalent at this time of year, oh no they haven't. Internally, some have had one refurbishment, a number haven't even had that and retain their original bench seating (though all have been "refreshed" under Northern with new seat covers, flooring and repainted panelling).

 

[northwichcat]

To get with the pantomime vibe prevalent at this time of year, oh no they haven't. Internally, some have had one refurbishment, a number haven't and retain their original bench seating (though all have been "refreshed" under Northern with new seat covers, flooring and repainted panelling).

I was on the other week which had it's original brown floor vinyl, as well as the original seats with new seat covers. It also had some missing seats where broken ones had been removed and not replaced. I was one of the first on the train so I finished up with an extra leg room seat with there being a missing seat in front.

Then there's the Merseytravel refurbished ones, which a number of people see as worse than the ones which have never been refurbished.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you consider that the Ashbourne seats, fitted to half the 150s that Northern operate, offer any sort of back support? hock: Not only are they low backed, they also seem to be excessively low to the floor.

They're less low backed than bus seats though. I don't like them but I find they are less likely to be broken or faulty than the seats on the non-refurbished 142s.

 

[sprinterguy]

I was on the other week which had it's original brown floor vinyl, as well as the original seats with new seat covers. It also had some missing seats where broken ones had been removed and not replaced. I was one of the first on the train so I finished up with an extra leg room seat with there being a missing seat in front.

Well well, the old brown vinyl still clinging on after thirty years of scuffing and shuffling from passengers across the North West. Well at least we know it's hard wearing!

To be fair, I find the old bench seats quite good for stretching the legs out even when there aren't seats missing, due to the unimpeded space beneath the chair (something that has been heralded recently as a welcome feature of brand new trains - the Pacers were clearly ahead of their time ).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They're less low backed than bus seats though. I don't like them but I find they are less likely to be broken or faulty than the seats on the non-refurbished 142s.

I suppose you're right there, on both points. I think it's because they feel so low down to the floor that they seem so inadequate.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Well well, the old brown vinyl still clinging on after thirty years of scuffing and shuffling from passengers across the North West. Well at least we know it's hard wearing!

To be fair, I find the old bench seats quite good for stretching the legs out even when there aren't seats missing, due to the unimpeded space beneath the chair (something that has been heralded recently as a welcome feature of brand new trains - the Pacers were clearly ahead of their time )

God Bless The Pacers

 

[northwichcat]

Well well, the old brown vinyl still clinging on after thirty years of scuffing and shuffling from passengers across the North West. Well at least we know it's hard wearing!

They spent a few years in the South West as well.

Northern must like the brown vinyl as it doesn't up dirt as easily.

 

[sprinterguy]

God Bless The Pacers

I'm astonished that Northern did nothing to celebrate the thirtieth anniversary of the ceremonial launch, upon the poor benighted rail passengers of the North West, of the first class 142 Pacer, at Manchester Victoria on 2nd September 1985. I wonder why ever not?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm astonished that Northern did nothing to celebrate the thirtieth anniversary of the ceremonial launch, upon the poor benighted rail passengers of the North West, of the first class 142 Pacer, at Manchester Victoria on 2nd September 1985. I wonder why ever not?

Because it wouldn't be the same without the equally iconic dingy, wet and crumbling station background which someone has recently taken away...

 

[sprinterguy]

Because it wouldn't be the same without the equally iconic dingy, wet and crumbling station background which someone has recently taken away...

How thoughtless of them!

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't think they will use it- I think they will go via Darlington and replace one of the existing 2tph Darlington-Middlesbrough (we know the other one will become 1tph through to Bishop Auckland).

Presumably that would have to start back at Saltburn otherwise you'd be halving the service between Middlesbrough and Saltburn!

 

[Darandio]

Presumably that would have to start back at Saltburn otherwise you'd be halving the service between Middlesbrough and Saltburn!

Which would make things rather unpleasant.

I think people often assume the core userbase on the line is between Darlington and Middlesbrough, presumably because of the size of those two places when in fact it's the total opposite.

Middlesbrough to Redcar in particular can often be rammed (as you know), reducing to 1tph would be unbearable.

 

[superkev]

Probably not the only person but I don't like to see a Pacer arrive over a 150 for a few reasons:
1. Less seats meaning more chance I have to stand.
2. High pitched squealing on sharp bends.
3. Low backed seating opposed to high back seating.
4. Poorer ride quality.
5. Pacers are less likely to make up lost time due to poorer acceleration and less doors.
6. More drafty.

On routes with few sharp curves and welded track I personally find the class 144's preferable to the 150's and certainly much better than the noisy knees under your chin 153/5's. Don't agree with the poorer accelaration comment as Pavers are light and have more horses per ton.
K

 

[Tetchytyke]

Presumably that would have to start back at Saltburn otherwise you'd be halving the service between Middlesbrough and Saltburn!

Naturally, though whether it's the Northern Connect or the one off the Durham Coast is probably open for discussion.

 

[RoundNewcastle]

Its probably more likely the Northern Connect will be routed via the Durham Coast because a Half Hour frequency is very needed much on the Durham Coast, the DFT quotes "•today’s service levels will be preserved at intermediate stations, but with earlier first trains and later last trains along the route" This should mean the likes of Seaton Carew, Billingham etc will keep the Hourly all shacks stoppers whilst Middlesbourgh,Stockton and maybe Hartlepool and Sunderland depending on what happens will have Half Hourly frequency's to Newcastle.
What interests me is that on the Tyne Valley improvements it quotes -
•the MetroCentre will have ( Cut Short ) and at least 12 trains per day to and from each of Sunderland and Morpeth.
This might be that Sunderland will have 2 services to the Metrocentre via Newcastle Central and 1 terminating at Newcastle Central which adding them to the Tyne and Wear metro services between Sunderland and Pelaw and the Coals from Boldon Junctions will at the busiest be around 10 trains an hour. But will result in slower journey times between Sunderland and Newcastle as by Brockley Whins the following Northern will have caught up to the Metro and is then continuous 1 Yellow Aspects till Pelaw.

I'm sure the Leamside line will open in the next few years as there's near no capacity on the ECML only then will the Stillington gain a passenger service as it will run off the Leamside at Ferryhill.
Chester-Le-Street will not gain a frequency increase unless I guess Northern can bring 100mph capable EMUs to run a Newcastle to York all stopper service if they can fit a path in, then Transpeenine could run direct not stopping at Northallerton and Thirsk or Chester, 321/322 from Yorkshire? Apart from that I cant see a frequency increase at Chester for a long time coming.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm sure the Leamside line will open in the next few years

The Leamside Line has been dug up, it has gone. I cannot see them ever reopening it. I can't see how they'd ever make the business case for it.

As for Sunderland, you could just about squeeze 2tph in amongst the Metro services, but anything more than that and you'd be seriously struggling. Grand Central had enough of a job on.

 

[RoundNewcastle]

The Leamside Line has been dug up, it has gone. I cannot see them ever reopening it. I can't see how they'd ever make the business case for it.

As for Sunderland, you could just about squeeze 2tph in amongst the Metro services, but anything more than that and you'd be seriously struggling. Grand Central had enough of a job on.

But the line is secured, nothing can be built upon it and with the ECML nearing full capacity and the Metro wanting to extend to Washington aswell as a faster diversionary route and a Regional service via Stillington which has been mentioned for years it should be reopened in the Next Decade

So between Sunderland and Pelaw the line will be at Capacity?

 

[Anvil1984]

But the line is secured, nothing can be built upon it and with the ECML nearing full capacity and the Metro wanting to extend to Washington aswell as a faster diversionary route and a Regional service via Stillington which has been mentioned for years it should be reopened in the Next Decade

So between Sunderland and Pelaw the line will be at Capacity?

Sunderland to Pelaw is pretty much at capacity now. 5 Metros per hour, 1 Northern service (2 in rush hours), a few Grand Central ECSs (either to/from Heaton or just going to Pelaw Jn to turn) and freight. Then in the future you have some daytime VTEC services going that way

I'm another of the camp who thinks its via Stillington. Yes the Durham Coast could do with an extra service but i cant see it being fit in (especially as Nexus had the second one an hour chucked off the Metro shared stretch years ago as it hurt their reliability)

 

[backontrack]

They've announced the Northern Connect services will run via the Durham Coast Line.

 

[Whistler40145]

Better going via the Durham Coast Line versus clogging up the ECML.

 

[ainsworth74]

They've announced the Northern Connect services will run via the Durham Coast Line.

Where?

 

[Whistler40145]

Yeah, can we have the evidence please.