Northern franchise awarded to Arriva.

[bramling]

On the 150s vs Pacers debate, I think that some of the refreshed Pacers are nicer inside then some of the worst Class 150s, but overall I think the Class 150 is a better train. Am I right in thinking that the Class 150s are to be refurbished? Perhaps we shouldn't judge them based on what they look like now. I certainly think I would prefer a refurbished 150 over a refurbished Pacer.

Will be very interested on the routing of the Northern Connect between Newcastle and Middlesbrough. Durham could be very busy indeed if it's routed down the ECML. What would it mean for Chester-le-Street?

Quick question regarding services on the CLC line between Liverpool and Manchester. Do we have any idea what is likely to happen to the stopping services once the bay platform is removed from Manchester Oxford Rd? Are they likely to run through to Buxton, for example, being DMUs? Or do we just have to wait until Arriva Northern make everything clear? I'm aware that the EMT to Norwich will continue and the TPE to Scarborough will be replaced by a Northern Connect to Manchester Airport, just the stoppers I'm unsure about.

Must agree that whilst the 150 is the better train, I prefer the bus-bench 142s to some of the 150 interiors. For example I'd prefer a Northern 150/2 to a Merseyrail 142, but I'd prefer a bus-bench 142 to both of those, and would prefer an ex-FNW 150 to all. If all 150s were to the specification of the FNW 150s then they'd be preferable to the 142s, but they're not!

 

[swt_passenger]

Given they have the same parent company, could we see more interaction between CrossCountry and the Northern lines? Some of the morning XC trains start from Leeds - could they be extended to start from Skipton or Huddersfield, since there wouldn't be the duplication argument from Northern.

Highly unlikely. The XC franchise could very well change hands and it would all have to be changed back. I think in general the service and route demarcation as set up by DfT has to be kept.

There never seems much interaction between XC and Chiltern, where they overlap, they just act like they are in competition...

 

[BurtonM]

Must agree that whilst the 150 is the better train, I prefer the bus-bench 142s to some of the 150 interiors. For example I'd prefer a Northern 150/2 to a Merseyrail 142, but I'd prefer a bus-bench 142 to both of those, and would prefer an ex-FNW 150 to all. If all 150s were to the specification of the FNW 150s then they'd be preferable to the 142s, but they're not!

Same goes for me re: cycle storage.
The area on an ex-Central 150 doesn't even fit bikes properly - 142s have more than enough space, as do 150s with the Northern interior refresh and big 'guards van' type area.

 

[Paul Duck]

While this is purely about services, Grand Central have hinted about reopening the second platform at Hartlepool which would be a major debottlenecker, but would cost a fair bit. Maybe they feeling under attack from VTEC with the new Sunderland service and more of a threat to them, a direct service from Middlesbrough to London.

I think Grand Central will have created enough custom to be ok (I Hope). More services always welcome in the North East. Some work is going to have to be done at Middlesbrough with all theses extra trains to fit in. Can see ticket barriers going in at Middlesbrough when the London trains start operating. Should be pretty easy to do at Middlesbrough and would help with revenue as a lot of people don't buy tickets or the guard can't get round to them before Middlesbrough and they end up getting a free ride. Grand Central might be thankful if Virgin run a later train out of York on a Saturday night to Teesside. Would take half the partygoers of Grand Central, win win!
One thing not looking forward to is surely the implementation of more complex fares. e.g.
Middlesbrough to York, would you like a...
Virgin Trains Only Tickets
Transpennine Only
Not Via Darlington
Any Permitted
York is the hardest ticket to sell a ticket to at Eaglescliffe, London is easier!

 

[northwichcat]

Same goes for me re: cycle storage.
The area on an ex-Central 150 doesn't even fit bikes properly - 142s have more than enough space, as do 150s with the Northern interior refresh and big 'guards van' type area.

The ex-ATN 142s and 5 of the ex-FNW ones* don't have any bike spaces, unless you mean you can leave them blocking the longitudinal seats where there's a risk they might fall over and you might have to ask people to move to be able to leave them there. :roll: It's only the ex-CT 150/2s which have the extra seats squeezed in, the ex-CT 150/1s have less seats.

* The "Oldham Loop 5" didn't get replacement floor vinyl or the bike/luggage racks under FNW because they were intended to be scrapped when the Oldham Loop closed.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

As a Guard all I want is my job to be secure, Equipment that actually works and not to get soaked through INSIDE the trains that I work. I am not sure I will get any of the above.

 

[pennine]

So what do we think will be the stock allocated on the Saltburn - Redcar - Middlesbrough - Darlington line? 156's? Something else?

Only speculation, but it would be interesting to hear other people's thoughts!

 

[Starmill]

York is the hardest ticket to sell a ticket to at Eaglescliffe, London is easier!

Choice of 3 routes, each a little cheaper than the other and not ambiguously described?

You want someone turning up trying to book a ticket from Worcester to Gatwick Airport!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Must agree that whilst the 150 is the better train, I prefer the bus-bench 142s to some of the 150 interiors.

Every so often, I see a post that brings to mind a matter that I have made reference to over the years on this website.

On the day of introduction of the Class 142 units on the Oldham loop line, there were "bright eyed and bushy tailed" keen young PR types on the services, asking the passengers what they thought of the new rolling stock and when they arrived to ask an elderly female passenger (who unbeknown to them but not a number of passengers that she was a professional personage of great standing in the community) her response whilst waving at the bus-style seating provided was...."Young man, I have travelled on this line for many years as I prefer to travel by train. Had I wished to travel by bus, I would have done so"

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Every so often, I see a post that brings to mind a matter that I have made reference to over the years on this website.

On the day of introduction of the Class 142 units on the Oldham loop line, there were "bright eyed and bushy tailed" keen young PR types on the services, asking the passengers what they thought of the new rolling stock and when they arrived to ask an elderly female passenger (who unbeknown to them but not a number of passengers that she was a professional personage of great standing in the community) her response whilst waving at the bus-style seating provided was...."Young man, I have travelled on this line for many years as I prefer to travel by train. Had I wished to travel by bus, I would have done so"

Must have been with Labour then that woman

 

[po8crg]

Standstill period is over now. Are we likely to see rolling stock announcements or more detail on timetabling on Monday?

 

[Class 170101]

Standstill period is over now. Are we likely to see rolling stock announcements or more detail on timetabling on Monday?

Is the standstill period not ten working days? If so no announcements this side of Christmas? (NB Question also asked on TPE Thread)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

These things are often done rather quietly, without any fanfare.
Sometimes it seems the DfT just signs the contract and puts it in the post, leaving the TOC to get on with it.
Most important initially for the TOC is to confirm its management team and operational policies with its staff and unions.
Rolling stock depends on the state of negotiations with ROSCOs/manufacturers.
It may be quite some time before any tangible detail emerges.
Timetabling is probably all up in the air for months until arrival dates for new/cascaded stock are known.
A new access contract also has to be agreed with Network Rail, married to CP5 upgrade work post-Hendy report.
I shouldn't think much is going to change on day 1.
Things may happen rather quicker for TPE because of the continuity from the previous franchise.
Northern has big issues to work out like depot and maintenance strategy, not to mention the elephant in the room (DCO).
All that assumes there is no legal challenge.
But what do I know...

PS Standstill is 10 calendar days, although I'm not sure when it starts.
Either way the time is up. We should hear something soon on either the signing or deferral by legal challenge.

 

[northwichcat]

These things are often done rather quietly, without any fanfare.
Sometimes it seems the DfT just signs the contract and puts it in the post, leaving the TOC to get on with it.
Most important initially for the TOC is to confirm its management team and operational policies with its staff and unions.
Rolling stock depends on the state of negotiations with ROSCOs/manufacturers.
It may be quite some time before any tangible detail emerges.
Timetabling is probably all up in the air for months until arrival dates for new/cascaded stock are known.
A new access contract also has to be agreed with Network Rail, married to CP5 upgrade work post-Hendy report.
I shouldn't think much is going to change on day 1.
Things may happen rather quicker for TPE because of the continuity from the previous franchise.
Northern has big issues to work out like depot and maintenance strategy, not to mention the elephant in the room (DCO).
All that assumes there is no legal challenge.
But what do I know...

Could Northern start changing things ahead of the next franchise starting? I recall in the latter days of the Central Trains franchise Central started removing 170s off the routes which were going to EMT and only using them on the routes going to LM.

PS Standstill is 10 calendar days, although I'm not sure when it starts.
Either way the time is up. We should hear something soon on either the signing or deferral by legal challenge.

Apparently it's tomorrow but further announcements on new rolling stock aren't expected until next year. Although, it's rumoured North TPE stock will be Hitachi AT300s and Scottish TPE stock will be the CAF product First proposed in their West Coast bid for Birmingham-Scotland. Tony Miles has suggested Arriva could buy from CAF as well as they are currently desperate for work to be able to keep factories open and workers in employment so would offer reduced priced options.

 

[frodshamfella]

Does anyone know what plans are for Helsby to Ellesmere Port service, something more useful hopefully ?

 

[bramling]

Every so often, I see a post that brings to mind a matter that I have made reference to over the years on this website.

On the day of introduction of the Class 142 units on the Oldham loop line, there were "bright eyed and bushy tailed" keen young PR types on the services, asking the passengers what they thought of the new rolling stock and when they arrived to ask an elderly female passenger (who unbeknown to them but not a number of passengers that she was a professional personage of great standing in the community) her response whilst waving at the bus-style seating provided was...."Young man, I have travelled on this line for many years as I prefer to travel by train. Had I wished to travel by bus, I would have done so"

May be so, but I still find the bus-style seats more comfortable than some other train seats. Last year I did Morecambe to Leeds, outwards was on a 150/2, return on a 142. The friend I was travelling remarked that neither train was that good, but "the one coming back was more comfortable and had moor legroom". Likewise both 156s and 158s can be extremely cramped when you get to the point where over half the seats are taken.

The 150 can be a decent train, as the ex-FNW refurbished examples demonstrate. Personally I'm quite content with 142s in their as-built state as long as they are clean and tidy. They still seem better than the new Thameslink trains.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Must have been with Labour then that woman

Without wishing to now betray any confidences, she was a highly respected member of a Labour Party organisation in the North West who was vociferous in her condemnation of the Class 142 units up to them being introduced on the Oldham loop line and one who always preferred the DMU that preceded them. She died somewhere around the 1993 mark.

 

[yorksrob]

Without wishing to now betray any confidences, she was a highly respected member of a Labour Party organisation in the North West who was vociferous in her condemnation of the Class 142 units up to them being introduced on the Oldham loop line and one who always preferred the DMU that preceded them. She died somewhere around the 1993 mark.

I wonder what she would have made of the current generation of trams on the Oldham loop!

 

[Quakkerillo]

I asked before about the Ellesmere services, but nobody seemed to know. So it might remain the same as it is now, as any improvement to any service would get a grand announcement.

 

[lejog]

I asked before about the Ellesmere services, but nobody seemed to know. So it might remain the same as it is now, as any improvement to any service would get a grand announcement.

No-one knows, the interactive maps that show the benefits don't reveal in detail what's happening to every line. As far as I can see Ellesmere Port doesn't get a mention, but I wouldn't take that necessarily to mean there are no changes.

 

[northwichcat]

No-one knows, the interactive maps that show the benefits don't reveal in detail what's happening to every line. As far as I can see Ellesmere Port doesn't get a mention, but I wouldn't take that necessarily to mean there are no changes.

The ITT required a morning Warrington-Ellesmere Port and Ellesmere Port-Victoria-Leeds services and evening Leeds-Victoria-Ellesmere Port and Ellesmere Port to Manchester/Leeds services. The timings of which would correspond with the times Arriva Trains Wales provide peak time extras between Manchester and Chester via Warrington, so Chester would still get 2tph and should allow someone in Ellesmere Port working normal office hours to be able to use rail to commute to either Warrington or Manchester.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Without wishing to now betray any confidences, she was a highly respected member of a Labour Party organisation in the North West who was vociferous in her condemnation of the Class 142 units up to them being introduced on the Oldham loop line and one who always preferred the DMU that preceded them. She died somewhere around the 1993 mark.

Well that was a good guess then, I suppose

 

[frodshamfella]

The ITT required a morning Warrington-Ellesmere Port and Ellesmere Port-Victoria-Leeds services and evening Leeds-Victoria-Ellesmere Port and Ellesmere Port to Manchester/Leeds services. The timings of which would correspond with the times Arriva Trains Wales provide peak time extras between Manchester and Chester via Warrington, so Chester would still get 2tph and should allow someone in Ellesmere Port working normal office hours to be able to use rail to commute to either Warrington or Manchester.

OK, well fingers crossed , as this sounds interesting

 

[AmateurRambler]

No new info but standstill period officially ended:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...and-transpennine-express-franchises-confirmed

 

[northwichcat]

No new info but standstill period officially ended:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...and-transpennine-express-franchises-confirmed

It will at least mean the new operators can move towards signing contracts with suppliers, they're unlikely to have a manufacturer sitting in the waiting room with a contract while they're in a meeting room with DfT signing the contract.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In their article confirming the signing of the contracts Manchester Evening News decided to use this picture showing Nick Clegg alighting a Pacer with the caption "OUT WITH THE OLD"

 

[158150]

cant wait for arriva to take over ,cant be any worse than northern rail

 

[Bletchleyite]

ATW is pretty well-run, though obviously on a shoestring. I think decent things will come of the new Northern.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

It will at least mean the new operators can move towards signing contracts with suppliers, they're unlikely to have a manufacturer sitting in the waiting room with a contract while they're in a meeting room with DfT signing the contract.

There has to be an agreement in principle between bidder/franchisee, rolling stock manufacturer and rolling stock funding party. The franchise bid can't be completed unless leasing costs, fairly accurate track access, diesel consumption or electricity consumption costs, and maintenance costs are known and fed into the bid.

There also needs to be some way for the franchisee and leasor to protect themselves against any sizeable exchange rate variations between pricing/tendering and payment on or after delivery.

 

[YorkshireBear]

cant wait for arriva to take over ,cant be any worse than northern rail

They are not really comparable?

Northern were told to plan for 0% growth across the franchise, contracted not to provide any innovation, extra services, enhancements and just run what was there. With claims that if people didn't like pacers we can get bus replacements instead.

New franchise told massive investment not only within the franchise but in the infrastructure around the North. Government willing to pay for the increase in subsidy to pay for new trains for now.

Hardly a fair comparison.

Imagine an apprentice task. Set up a business, you give one of them a tenner and a pencil the other gets £50K and a business adviser and city centre office. Hardly fair to compare the two outcomes?

 

[yorksrob]

They are not really comparable?

Northern were told to plan for 0% growth across the franchise, contracted not to provide any innovation, extra services, enhancements and just run what was there. With claims that if people didn't like pacers we can get bus replacements instead.

New franchise told massive investment not only within the franchise but in the infrastructure around the North. Government willing to pay for the increase in subsidy to pay for new trains for now.

Hardly a fair comparison.

Imagine an apprentice task. Set up a business, you give one of them a tenner and a pencil the other gets £50K and a business adviser and city centre office. Hardly fair to compare the two outcomes?

Yes indeed. You can tell the quality of a franchise holder by the little things which are within their control.

Attitude to delay repay, decent fare offers, tidiness and upkeep of stations etc are something that all franchises can excel on potentially.