Northern franchise awarded to Arriva.

[backontrack]

Here. Sorry, I was just finding the link.

http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html

Middlesbrough to Newcastle

The benefits are:

-there will be a half-hourly service between Middlesbrough, Stockton and Newcastle, providing 30 trains per day in each direction. The current service is generally hourly

-at least 10 services per day will be Northern Connect services, operated by fully-refurbished, air conditioned Class 158 trains

-today’s service levels will be preserved at intermediate stations, but with earlier first trains and later last trains along the route


These benefits and improvements are part of the new Northern and TransPennine Express franchise agreements.

 

[Whistler40145]

Cheers for the link.

 

[Darandio]

I'm still unsure whether a half hourly service between Middlesbrough and Newcastle is really needed. I've used the current service dozens of times this year and capacity hasn't been an issue.

Not in the Northern remit of course, but Middlesbrough to York is a different propositon altogether, and needs more capacity.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Here. Sorry, I was just finding the link.

http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html

That doesn't say anything we didn't already know; you'll note that Hartlepool and Sunderland are not mentioned as receiving 2tph. Thornaby is in Stockton.

I expect it to go via Darlington, but I wouldn't be surprised if it does go up the coast, but one would expect them to be trumpeting connections for Hartlepool and Sunderland if the decision had been made.

The Leamside Line goes nowhere near Washington, it's out over by Nissan, and goes nowhere else of any significance. The trackbed is protected but the track itself went over a decade ago. To all intents and purposes it would need to be rebuilt from scratch. I'd never say never, but that's going to be a very difficult business case to make.

 

[swt_passenger]

That doesn't say anything we didn't already know; you'll note that Hartlepool and Sunderland are not mentioned as receiving 2tph. Thornaby is in Stockton.

When you click on the Middlesbrough - Newcastle option in the drop down, it is only the Durham Coast route that comes up highlighted in green on the map.

But is that enough to be proving the proposition...

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm still unsure whether a half hourly service between Middlesbrough and Newcastle is really needed. I've used the current service dozens of times this year and capacity hasn't been an issue

There's a lot of untapped demand on that route as the service is so poor and so slow; it can be quicker to go via Darlingto, if you get the connections right. Improving the frequency will improve usage. There's the market for it; the X9 and X10 buses prove that.

 

[Darandio]

The Leamside Line goes nowhere near Washington, it's out over by Nissan, and goes nowhere else of any significance.

Entirely depends what you define as Washington. The industral estates are very much part of what Washington is, they straddle the line as do Columbia, Barmston and Sulgrave, they are all very much part of Washington.

The trackbed is protected but the track itself went over a decade ago. To all intents and purposes it would need to be rebuilt from scratch. I'd never say never, but that's going to be a very difficult business case to make.

The remainder of track was only taken in the last couple of years following the Network Rail feasability study. This determined that the most cost effective way of reopening in the future would be to effectively lay it all again.

 

[ainsworth74]

The remainder of track was only taken in the last couple of years following the Network Rail feasability study. This determined that the most cost effective way of reopening in the future would be to effectively lay it all again.

Plus it was being nicked by that point!

 

[Darandio]

Plus it was being nicked by that point!

By very organised groups with large machinery IIRC!

 

[ainsworth74]

By very organised groups with large machinery IIRC!

Yeah a couple of men with some vans that looked like they knew what they were doing and that they were supposed to be doing it so no-one local questioned it!

 

[Stats]

A lot of the assumption in the Northern Connect appears to be based on that it doesn't mention Hartlepool or Sunderland. But neither does it mention Durham. If Northern were to go via the ECML surely a Northern service wouldn't pass through Durham withput stopping and in a new franchise award announcement you would want to be highlighting new regional rail links between Durham and Middlesbrough.

I'm still unsure whether a half hourly service between Middlesbrough and Newcastle is really needed. I've used the current service dozens of times this year and capacity hasn't been an issue.

There's a lot of untapped demand on that route as the service is so poor and so slow; it can be quicker to go via Darlingto, if you get the connections right. Improving the frequency will improve usage. There's the market for it; the X9 and X10 buses prove that.

I don't think the Northern Connect service is about increasing capacity. It's about improving rail links between two of the North East's principle centres by providing a fast and higher quality service to compete with the X9 and X10 buses while the stopper serves the stations in between. It might be why there isn't mention of Sunderland and Hartlepool, although you might want some peak Connect services to stop at those stations.

 

[ainsworth74]

A lot of the assumption in the Northern Connect appears to be based on that it doesn't mention Hartlepool or Sunderland. But neither does it mention Durham. If Northern were to go via the ECML surely a Northern service wouldn't pass through Durham withput stopping and in a new franchise award announcement you would want to be highlighting new regional rail links between Durham and Middlesbrough.

Yes that's giving me pause in regards to going via Stillington or Darlington and then ECML rather than Durham Coast. But equally it doesn't mention Hartlepool or Sunderland and I'd have thought they would rate a mention if the service was going that way?

I think, to be honest, that detail like this won't be known until the standstill comes to an end in a few days and Arriva can start publishing more information. Still, it's quite good fun speculating in the meantime though

 

[northwichcat]

On routes with few sharp curves and welded track I personally find the class 144's preferable to the 150's and certainly much better than the noisy knees under your chin 153/5's. Don't agree with the poorer accelaration comment as Pavers are light and have more horses per ton.
K

Sprinters seem to have fairly consistent acceleration however full it is.

A crowded Pacer struggles a lot more to accelerate than a lightly loaded one.

 

[lejog]

A lot of the assumption in the Northern Connect appears to be based on that it doesn't mention Hartlepool or Sunderland. But neither does it mention Durham. If Northern were to go via the ECML surely a Northern service wouldn't pass through Durham withput stopping and in a new franchise award announcement you would want to be highlighting new regional rail links between Durham and Middlesbrough.

I agree, the text clearly does not define which of the possible routes is to be taken and really gives no clue whatsoever to which it is.

The map clearly shows the coastal route.

Would Arriva run 90mph refurbished Sprinters on the ECML if new 100mph stock is available?

If I were a betting man, my money would be on the coastal route.

 

[47802]

Sprinters seem to have fairly consistent acceleration however full it is.

A crowded Pacer struggles a lot more to accelerate than a lightly loaded one.

I'm somewhat bemused to see how anyone would find a Pacer better than a 150 to me a 150 is massive improvement. True they are not most ideal for longer distance journeys but still a lot better than Pacer in my view, and they key point about the new franchise will be the longer distance Northern Connect services getting more appropriate rolling stock, stopping services can get 150's a role which they are better suited to.

One of my most uncomfortable journey's on a non overcrowded train a 142 on the early Saturday morning Leeds to Carlisle, highly unimpressed when that turned up freezing cold January morning the heating was ineffective, very cold, original bus style seats so couldn't rest my head back to go the sleep, would have taken a 150 over that 142 any day.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think, to be honest, that detail like this won't be known until the standstill comes to an end in a few days and Arriva can start publishing more information. Still, it's quite good fun speculating in the meantime though

It does appear by the number of aspirational postings that have been made upon this thread in the interim period to which you do so allude that the eventual revelations will be somewhat akin in expectation to the return of Moses with the two tablets of stone from Mount Sinai...

 

[sprinterguy]

Don't agree with the poorer accelaration comment as Pavers are light and have more horses per ton.
K

They acquit themselves fairly well when lightly loaded but they seem to be sods to get moving (and keep moving - got stuck on the Gateshead curve on one a couple of months ago due to the service being overcrowded) with a heavy passenger load.
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I'm sure the Leamside line will open in the next few years

As Arctic Troll says, not a chance in my view of the line reopening as a through route at any point in the next twenty years.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But the line is secured, nothing can be built upon it and with the ECML nearing full capacity and the Metro wanting to extend to Washington aswell as a faster diversionary route and a Regional service via Stillington which has been mentioned for years it should be reopened in the Next Decade

With a new (and expanded) train fleet in perhaps around ten years time I could see the Metro operating over the northern end of the route to Washington, but I don't see this as portentous for the reopening of the full route: More likely, it will reduce the chances of the rest being reopened if it is built, electrified and signalled to Metro standards rather than Network Rail ones.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm still unsure whether a half hourly service between Middlesbrough and Newcastle is really needed. I've used the current service dozens of times this year and capacity hasn't been an issue.

Lack of demand at present does not necessarily accurately represent the size of the potential market: Personally, I feel that demand for travel on the Durham Coast line is being suppressed by the long journey times, low frequency hourly service and poor quality rolling stock.

As Arctic Troll says, Go North East's X9/X10 runs every half hour between Middlesbrough and Newcastle and from what I have seen is very well loaded, even off peak, with a journey time that is comparable to the train service and fairly comfortable, modern vehicles. If a fast Middlesbrough to Newcastle train service operates with good quality, refurbished rolling stock then it could do a good job of creaming off some of this end to end traffic.

Not in the Northern remit of course, but Middlesbrough to York is a different propositon altogether, and needs more capacity.

Hear hear. If I had a say, then I would like to see an hourly fast/semi-fast TPE service to Middlesbrough and an hourly York - Middlesbrough - Newcastle train which acts as a local service as far as a Middlesbrough, and a semi-fast via the Durham Coast afterwards.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yeah a couple of men with some vans that looked like they knew what they were doing and that they were supposed to be doing

Enough about Network Rail, what about the metal thieves that have plagued the route?

Although on the north side of the river, I did come across a group of men bashing away at the pandrol clips to get at the rails when I walked part of the route a few years ago. There were a lot of them, they were well tooled up, and the route had been severed for years anyway (at level crossings), so I left them to it, rather than becoming a one man defender-of-the-railways or something. Discretion being the better part of valour, and all that.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Entirely depends what you define as Washington. The industral estates are very much part of what Washington is, they straddle the line as do Columbia, Barmston and Sulgrave, they are all very much part of Washington.

They're part of Washington, and both DSS Waterview Park and the Nissan plant would be good traffic drivers.

But even Nexus acknowledge that any extended Metro service would need to get to the Galleries to be justifiable.

I think the best hope for any traffic returning to the Leamside Line would be as a Metro loop from South Hylton back to Pelaw. But Nexus have been making grandiose plans for this for at least 15 years and they're no closer to making it happen.

South of Biddick there's no settlements of sufficient size to justify re-opening, unless you wanted to make a park and ride out at Belmont, which I doubt Nexus would pay for. Realistically the future for the trackbed south of Fencehouses is as a cycle path.

The remainder of track was only taken in the last couple of years following the Network Rail feasability study. This determined that the most cost effective way of reopening in the future would be to effectively lay it all again.

They've been chipping away at it for years, but IIRC the main driver was getting the track lifted before it was stolen, after the well publicised theft in about 2004. My memory may be playing tricks but I'm sure the important stuff had gone years ago, I seem to remember the level crossing at Fencehouses being taken out in about 2006.

 

[lejog]

Yeah a couple of men with some vans that looked like they knew what they were doing and that they were supposed to be doing it so no-one local questioned it!

It was an ex-Jarvis employee who organised the theft and paid workmen from Sheffield to do the work. They thought they were being employed by a legitimate subcontractor. The theft was only spotted when a real Jarvis employee spotted the work being carried out!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/3044669.stm

 

[tbtc]

I'm somewhat bemused to see how anyone would find a Pacer better than a 150 to me a 150 is massive improvement

On most journeys round here, I'd prefer a Pacer.

I'm not trying to be contrary, but as long as I can get a seat then a Pacer gives me big windows and a clear view down the carriage... a 150 sees me sitting a few inches off the ground on a "toast rack" seat, sometimes in 3+2 seating - they can feel a bit claustrophobic.

Obviously a 150 has more seats and is built to better quality, but I feel much more crammed in on a 150 and far too low to the ground. A Pacer gives a much more scenic ride (which is why it's a shame they've not been kept on scenic branch lines - 75mph would cope with the Far North any day )

I agree, the text clearly does not define which of the possible routes is to be taken and really gives no clue whatsoever to which it is.

The map clearly shows the coastal route.

Would Arriva run 90mph refurbished Sprinters on the ECML if new 100mph stock is available?

If I were a betting man, my money would be on the coastal route.

The boring answer may be that it depends on what paths they can secure.

Since Arriva will get 100% of the ORCATS money from Teesside/ Hartlepool to Tyneside/ Wearside they may get more money by running through Durham (and creaming off some of that market), but that means fitting them in between two TPE services per hour (which will be badly split rather than the half hourly service being suggested until recently), two XC services per hour (not a 30/30 split in the timetable), potentially three VTEC services per hour plus any Open Access...

...so Durham may be more lucrative but harder to schedule. Running via Sunderland may be slow if you have to path your service to be stuck on yellows behind a Metro, but at least there are paths available between the five (?) Metro services per hour.

Much easier to schedule your 90mph/ 100mph DMU between the slow Metro paths than to fight for space between the 125mph TPE/ XC/ VTEC/ OA stock.

It could even be a mixture of the two - like the Chester to Leeds service (which will run via Bradford or via Brighouse at different times).

There's certainly a northbound gap on the ECML in the morning as few services are scheduled to arrive in Newcastle before 09:00 - nothing from Durham arriving into Newcastle between 08:19 and 08:38 (when there are two arrivals) and then nothing arriving into Newcastle between 08:38 and 09:03 - I'm sure you could fill any empty seats on an Arriva DMU fairly easily. Tougher later in the day though, especially as the long distance stuff on the ECML runs at awkward gaps.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Tougher later in the day though, especially as the long distance stuff on the ECML runs at awkward gaps.

Depending on how the timetable gets cast, it shouldn't be too hard. In a normal hour at Durham there are four northbound trains (3x calling at Durham, 1x express) in the space of 20 minutes then only one train (the TPE stopper) in the next 40.

There's certainly a northbound gap on the ECML in the morning as few services are scheduled to arrive in Newcastle before 09:00

Three of the eight northbound trains pre-0900 at Durham are Northern stoppers already.

 

[TBY-Paul]

Just out of interest, Would the fact that a "Northern Connect" service from Middlesbrough would be joining/leaving the ECML at Ferryhill/Tursdale rather than at Darlington i.e 12miles (8Mins) further down the line, help in terms of Timetabling ?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

With the whole pacers versus sprinters thing, for me on journeys of half an hour or so the key is whether there's a seat or not. I'd rather have a seat on a pacer than have to stand on a 150. Those services that currently get a 3-car 144 or a pair of 2-car pacers will suffer a drop in capacity if a 150 is used instead. There's definitely a case to be made for retaining the Pacers for extra capacity but unfortunately so many promises have been made about getting rid that I can't see it happening.

 

[glbotu]

Depending on how the timetable gets cast, it shouldn't be too hard. In a normal hour at Durham there are four northbound trains (3x calling at Durham, 1x express) in the space of 20 minutes then only one train (the TPE stopper) in the next 40.



Three of the eight northbound trains pre-0900 at Durham are Northern stoppers already.

But that's looking at the current timetable and is probably one of the reasons everyone seems pretty happy fitting in an extra VTEC, an extra TPE and an OAO service, they're already taking the paths. By making all the trains high acceleration 125 mph EMUs/DMUs (as opposed to now, when only the 2XCs fit that description), they've made this possible. If you shove in a 90mph DMU in there, it's probably going to annoy a lot of people.

 

[sprinterguy]

Depending on how the timetable gets cast, it shouldn't be too hard. In a normal hour at Durham there are four northbound trains (3x calling at Durham, 1x express) in the space of 20 minutes then only one train (the TPE stopper) in the next 40.

I presume that they're flighted like that to allow paths for slower freight services in the remainder of the hour: That 40 minutes (barring the TPE) is not necessarily blank space.

 

[Topgun333]

For those who might be interested I have written a Linked In post about how the Northern and TPE franchise awards might contribute towards the Northern Powerhouse project.

I realise it is early days and many routing and fleet details are yet to be finalised. I also recognise that there will probably be many changes that could fundamentally alter the general announcements made by Arriva and First Group.

Feel free to add constructive criticism here or on the link response comments.

Thanks.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/rail...rhouse-richard-bowen?trk=pulse_spock-articles

 

[PrinceBishop]

On the 150s vs Pacers debate, I think that some of the refreshed Pacers are nicer inside then some of the worst Class 150s, but overall I think the Class 150 is a better train. Am I right in thinking that the Class 150s are to be refurbished? Perhaps we shouldn't judge them based on what they look like now. I certainly think I would prefer a refurbished 150 over a refurbished Pacer.

Will be very interested on the routing of the Northern Connect between Newcastle and Middlesbrough. Durham could be very busy indeed if it's routed down the ECML. What would it mean for Chester-le-Street?

Quick question regarding services on the CLC line between Liverpool and Manchester. Do we have any idea what is likely to happen to the stopping services once the bay platform is removed from Manchester Oxford Rd? Are they likely to run through to Buxton, for example, being DMUs? Or do we just have to wait until Arriva Northern make everything clear? I'm aware that the EMT to Norwich will continue and the TPE to Scarborough will be replaced by a Northern Connect to Manchester Airport, just the stoppers I'm unsure about.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Given they have the same parent company, could we see more interaction between CrossCountry and the Northern lines? Some of the morning XC trains start from Leeds - could they be extended to start from Skipton or Huddersfield, since there wouldn't be the duplication argument from Northern.

 

[Bevan Price]

Will be very interested on the routing of the Northern Connect between Newcastle and Middlesbrough. Durham could be very busy indeed if it's routed down the ECML. What would it mean for Chester-le-Street?

.

I think the best option might be for it to run semi-fast via the coast, maybe calling only at Thornaby, Stockton, Hartlepool & Sunderland, leaving the smaller stations to be served by the current hourly trains. It would also help if the overall line speed could be increased to, say, 75 mph. Currently some longish sections are limited to 60 mph or less.

 

[Poolie]

I think the best option might be for it to run semi-fast via the coast, maybe calling only at Thornaby, Stockton, Hartlepool & Sunderland, leaving the smaller stations to be served by the current hourly trains. It would also help if the overall line speed could be increased to, say, 75 mph. Currently some longish sections are limited to 60 mph or less.

Got a vested interest in this, but I think (hope) that is what the announcement is suggesting and the interactive map highlights the coast line, but why aren't they clearer?
While this is purely about services, Grand Central have hinted about reopening the second platform at Hartlepool which would be a major debottlenecker, but would cost a fair bit. Maybe they feeling under attack from VTEC with the new Sunderland service and more of a threat to them, a direct service from Middlesbrough to London.