Northern franchise awarded to Arriva.

[DarloRich]

But when I pointed out the Bedford-Bletchley line is cheaper than a lot of Northern routes you effectively stuck your finger in your ears and said "LA LA LA NOT MY ROUTE!"

not comparable journeys. I can happily provide such information again but that would be off topic.

Much as i dislike backing down from an argument, especially when attacked, I am prepared to do so to prevent this topic running away. I suggest you do likewise or we take it outside this thread.

 

[northwichcat]

not comparable journeys. I can happily provide such information again but that would be off topic.

Agreed an hourly service operated by a 150 is a lot better than a hourly service where you could get either a 142 or a 150.

Many Northern routes will still be mainly operated by 150s at the end of the next franchise so while the new DMUs and Pacer withdrawal are good news it doesn't mean high quality stock for all routes. All it means is the existing 150s and any cascaded 150s which join them will have to be refurbished to a better standard than they are currently in.

 

[DarloRich]

Agreed an hourly service operated by a 150 is a lot better than a hourly service where you could get either a 142 or a 150.

Many Northern routes will still be mainly operated by 150s at the end of the next franchise so while the new DMUs and Pacer withdrawal are good news it doesn't mean high quality stock for all routes. All it means is the existing 150s and any cascaded 150s which join them will have to be refurbished to a better standard than they are currently in.

I have said many times 142's were designed precisely for use on lines like Marston Vale. The fact we are southern meant we held onto the bubbles for some time and then went straight to Sprinters ( via 31's!)

HOPEFULLY - the incoming 150's will get a good quality overhaul and interior refit. I do think the Northern 150's are quite good internally.

 

[northwichcat]

I do think the Northern 150's are quite good internally.

Some are better internally than others. The graffiti the LM ones arrived with has been removed and they've had new seat covers but the new seat covers don't fit as well as they should so some of the seat covers are already worn out.

 

[DarloRich]

Some are better internally than others. The graffiti the LM ones arrived with has been removed and they've had new seat covers but the new seat covers don't fit as well as they should so some of the seat covers are already worn out.

Correct - i meant the "core" Northern machines as opposed to the offcomers from LM

 

[northwichcat]

Correct - i meant the "core" Northern machines as opposed to the offcomers from LM

Northern did have the ex-ATN ones which retain the original seats as well, which have had a repaint, new vinyl on the floor and new seat covers. The ex-FNW ones got replacement seats and a new toilet before Northern acquired them.

 

[RoundNewcastle]

Correct - i meant the "core" Northern machines as opposed to the offcomers from LM

150269 is a core Northern unit and is in quite appalling condition internally and the mechanical side of things arnt to healthy either.

 

[DarloRich]

150269 is a core Northern unit and is in quite appalling condition internally and the mechanical side of things arnt to healthy either.

is that the one that vanished for a bit?

 

[D365]

The Pacers could in theory be kept after 31st December 2019 if they always ran coupled to a unit which was DDA-compliant.

Which is the point a lot of posters refuse to accept!

Doesn't that that go firmly against certain posters' anti-'non gangway' stance..?

(Thinking back to endless anti-Voyager/IEP discussions going round in circles...)

 

[northwichcat]

I think some people seem to think accessible means accessible to wheelchair users and don't think about other kinds of disability. How are you going to ensure a deaf person boards a Sprinter with visual CIS and not the Pacer without if the two are joined together? Someone with limited mobility might see the Pacer as the easier train to board if it's the one that stops where they are standing, but then if they want to use the toilet they find it's too small to use with their walking frame and they can't then walk through to use the other toilet.

 

[455driver]

I was just curious to know if they were told they could just keep them...

They are such low quality they wouldn't be much good and even if they did take them back what would they do with them?

 

[TBY-Paul]

It isn't going run via Stillington surely. Is that route even signaled to passenger standards?

Is the proposal not for a "Northern Connect" service between Boro and Newcastle via Darlo and the ECML using what i assume will be 158's AND an enhanced stopper via the coast using what i assume are 156's. I hope the ATN -) ) 158's get an ATW style interior!

I would like to see some sort of link York and Darlington but that is entirely selfish and personal and based on cost and competetion

If you read what it says about the "Newcastle- Middlesbrough" "Northern Connect" service, it specifically mentions Stockton, without mentioning Hartlepool. Unless the plan is to reverse at Stockton!, the most logical solution is to go via the Stillington Line, as proposed in the past, as possible a "Tyne-Tees Express" route.


It's also worth noting that the "North East Combined Authorities" seam to have linked up with "Tees Valley Unlimited". (It wasn't something I was aware of until markydh posted the Nexus response)

The North East Combined Authority and Tees Valley Unlimited partnership have worked together to secure a better deal for passengers in two new rail franchises serving the North of England.

A new North East Rail Management Unit, the first of its kind in the country, will see Northern’s services in the North East, marketing, development and investment decisions developed in partnership with the North East Combined Authority(NECA) and Tees Valley Unlimited for the first time, within the wider Rail North structure.


It is intended the North East Rail Management Unit, will act within Rail North on behalf of local authorities in the North East part of the Northern franchise, including services in Northumberland and to Carlisle, through Durham and the Tees Valley and to Whitby in North Yorkshire.

The NECA( and by extension NERMU) are quite keen to see the Leamside Line re-opened, so having the Stillington line being used for passenger units would enhance the Leamside Case.

 

[DarloRich]

If you read what it says about the "Newcastle- Middlesbrough" "Northern Connect" service, it specifically mentions Stockton, without mentioning Hartlepool. Unless the plan is to reverse at Stockton!, the most logical solution is to go via the Stillington Line, as proposed in the past, as possible a "Tyne-Tees Express" route.


It's also worth noting that the "North East Combined Authorities" seam to have linked up with "Tees Valley Unlimited". (It wasn't something I was aware of until markydh posted the Nexus response)



The NECA( and by extension NERMU) are quite keen to see the Leamside Line re-opened, so having the Stillington line being used for passenger units would enhance the Leamside Case.

I am well aware it says via Stockton and omits hartlepooh - i simply say that to run via Stillington will require infrastructure upgrades. I don't see this corresponding investment noted elsewhere.

I further wonder if Stockton is being taken out of context. It should be noted that Thornaby and Eaglescliffe are both within the Borough of Stockton-on-Tees And whilst the local authorities all want Leamside open none have the funds to make that happen.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If you read what it says about the "Newcastle- Middlesbrough" "Northern Connect" service, it specifically mentions Stockton, without mentioning Hartlepool. Unless the plan is to reverse at Stockton!, the most logical solution is to go via the Stillington Line, as proposed in the past, as possible a "Tyne-Tees Express" route.


It's also worth noting that the "North East Combined Authorities" seam to have linked up with "Tees Valley Unlimited". (It wasn't something I was aware of until markydh posted the Nexus response)



The NECA( and by extension NERMU) are quite keen to see the Leamside Line re-opened, so having the Stillington line being used for passenger units would enhance the Leamside Case.

The attitude of the various PTE/ITA/Whatever they're called this month to heavy-rail is largely coloured by what they were left with at the time they were formed in 1974. NEXUS had very little in terms of heavy rail whereas both METRO and GMPTE had a reasonable local network to work with. As a result, both NEXUS and SYPTE have concentrated largely on bus and light-rail whereas the others (including Merseytravel) have had a bit more to work with. All of the above have at times been accused of concentrating most on the central districts and neglecting their hinterland (Leeds/Newcastle/Sheffield as opposed to Bradford/Sunderland/Doncaster). If this imbalance is to be redressed it's going to require £££.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They are such low quality they wouldn't be much good and even if they did take them back what would they do with them?

Quite so. Let Adrian Shooter come up with yet another piece of "Blue Sky thinking" and make an offer to Angel Trains to let Vivarail take all the Class 142 remaining units off their hands at the end of the period when they will be able to be used.

Heaven only knows what one of "Newton Heath's Finest" would look like when Vivarail had finished with them....but I am sure there are fertile creative minds amongst the website who can produce artistic impressions of both the interiors and exteriors of those said units....

 

[Class 170101]

Didn't think so, thanks. I knew the Askern line would be an option to serve Monkhill but it's slow and as you say would require a reversal somewhere. I really don't think Pontefract is a big enough place for the amount of disruption it would cause. On the bright side, with the Knottingley to Kirkgate services being extended to Leeds via Westgate, connecting into cross-country services should be easier.

Reversal not required but you head north, then swing west, back south, west then north again. A sort of side on 's' shape.

 

[Lucky63]

A big challenge ahead is going to be the implementation of the new mobile TIS.
With Fujitsu's device now confirmed, a plan is surely in the making of how this will get rolled out to all staff required to use it.
Avantix will continue to be used once Arriva take over but the support function from Atos will cease, meaning if a machine fails, it can't be fixed.
Again, I'd like to think there is a plan in place for this.

I expect Atos may offer their services for a rather large fee.

 

[adrock1976]

Snip

It isn't going run via Stillington surely. Is that route even signaled to passenger standards?

Snip

I believe that the Stillington line is signalled to passenger standards as if it is the line I'm thinking of that diverges north of Eaglescliffe and south of Stockton on Tees, and rejoins the mainline south of Durham, I covered this route on a diversion back in 1990 on a IC125 when on a Birmingham - Newcastle day trip.

 

[450.emu]

A big challenge ahead is going to be the implementation of the new mobile TIS.
With Fujitsu's device now confirmed, a plan is surely in the making of how this will get rolled out to all staff required to use it.
Avantix will continue to be used once Arriva take over but the support function from Atos will cease, meaning if a machine fails, it can't be fixed.
Again, I'd like to think there is a plan in place for this.

I expect Atos may offer their services for a rather large fee.

It also doesn't help that Daisy Partner Services have gotten rid of quite a few Avantix engineers since their subsidiary Phoenix took over operations in November, meaning in most cases, inexperienced hardware engineers, or a change in what's "chargeable" to Atos (i.e Chip and Pin reader, Epson printer Avantix Cradle or Workstation etc.) which delays kit getting repaired in some instances. It's happening to all TOC's still on Tribute as the number of ex Calyx/ServiceTec staff dwindles. Probably why Abellio got rid of their kit and swtiched to Fujitsu in February :roll:

 

[sprinterguy]

I believe that the Stillington line is signalled to passenger standards as if it is the line I'm thinking of that diverges north of Eaglescliffe and south of Stockton on Tees, and rejoins the mainline south of Durham, I covered this route on a diversion back in 1990 on a IC125 when on a Birmingham - Newcastle day trip.

Indeed, the Stillington line (though note that it diverges from the Durham Coast route north of Stockton on Tees) remains available for passenger diversions as required: I covered it on a Crosscountry Voyager perhaps 4/5 years ago.

 

[Tetchytyke]

i simply say that to run via Stillington will require infrastructure upgrades.

I don't think so, East Coast have diverted that way a few times in the last couple of years. The Stillington line should be more than capable of fitting an hourly passenger service in amongst the freight.

 

[DarloRich]

I believe that the Stillington line is signalled to passenger standards as if it is the line I'm thinking of that diverges north of Eaglescliffe and south of Stockton on Tees, and rejoins the mainline south of Durham, I covered this route on a diversion back in 1990 on a IC125 when on a Birmingham - Newcastle day trip.

Indeed, the Stillington line (though note that it diverges from the Durham Coast route north of Stockton on Tees) remains available for passenger diversions as required: I covered it on a Crosscountry Voyager perhaps 4/5 years ago.

I don't think so, East Coast have diverted that way a few times in the last couple of years. The Stillington line should be more than capable of fitting an hourly passenger service in amongst the freight.

i realise it is available for diversions - I have been down there and Leamside several times - I wonder if it is up to the standard required for regular timetabled passenger services. Are the line speeds and headways not prohibitively poor without upgrade?

 

[sprinterguy]

Are the line speeds and headways not prohibitively poor without upgrade?

That's a good point. I don't know for sure but the route certainly seemed slow when I travelled over it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Are the line speeds and headways not prohibitively poor without upgrade?

You'd be struggling to get much more than an hourly service down it, but the Northern Connect will only be hourly anyway. Linespeed isn't brilliant, it's quite slow, but it's shorter than going via Darlington and the linespeed from Darlington to Allens West isn't a great deal better. The freight takes about 20 minutes to get from Ferryhill Station to Norton, and the passenger trains take about 35-40 via Darlington (though there are more station calls).

 

[DarloRich]

You'd be struggling to get much more than an hourly service down it, but the Northern Connect will only be hourly anyway. Linespeed isn't brilliant, it's quite slow, but it's shorter than going via Darlington and the linespeed from Darlington to Allens West isn't a great deal better. The freight takes about 20 minutes to get from Ferryhill Station to Norton, and the passenger trains take about 35-40 via Darlington (though there are more station calls).

it no real interest to me which way the service goes - i just don't see any corresponding enhancements spending anywhere.

Perhaps there might be a station built somewhere lie Sedgefield in due course!

 

[glbotu]

i realise it is available for diversions - I have been down there and Leamside several times - I wonder if it is up to the standard required for regular timetabled passenger services. Are the line speeds and headways not prohibitively poor without upgrade?

It's 10 miles, 72 Chains at 50 mph from Norton on Tees Junction - Ferryhill South Junction, so it would take about 13 1/2 mins (sectional appendix LN646). My concern with this is less about what you do there, more about fitting in a 90 mph train every hour among a service now exclusively run by 125 mph trains (given the upgrade to 125 mph trains on the Transpennine North routes).

While the speed around Durham is limited, the limit is 100mph for about 4 miles North of Tursdale Junction and then 115 mph for around 9 miles around Chester-Le-Street. This difference can be seen now with the timings on a Voyager versus the slower 185s (which match the timings of the 91/Mk4s because of the latter's poor acceleration).

Also, if this is non-stop Durham/Chester-Le-Street, surely that's a massive kick in the teeth for Chester-Le-Street, which as yet is still facing the prospect of its awful 1tp2h (and also silly not stopping at Durham, given the market for travel from there).

 

[Tetchytyke]

it no real interest to me which way the service goes - i just don't see any corresponding enhancements spending anywhere.

You wouldn't need any enhancements to chuck an hourly train down the Stillington line.

I don't think they will use it- I think they will go via Darlington and replace one of the existing 2tph Darlington-Middlesbrough (we know the other one will become 1tph through to Bishop Auckland). But they wouldn't need to spend money to chuck one an hour down the Stillington line.

I think the main reason they won't use the Stillington line is getting the train out of the loop at Ferryhill Station and up to speed would cause more issues than it would at Darlington.

It'll be interesting to see if the TPE calls disappear from Chester-le-Street if they do send the Northern Connect train down the ECML. It would make sense.

 

[Stats]

The Northern Connect service will not be going anywhere near the ECML. There is not the capacity, especially with a 2nd TPE service.

Network Rail's 2020 ECML capacity report with an ITSS of 4 intercity London services, 2 crosscountry, 2 inter regional and 1-2 freight between Northallerton and Newcastle with the planned freight loops included concluded
CHOICE: It is not possible to run the full volume of passenger and freight services
indicated in the ITSS. There needs to be a decision between London LDHS,
interurban / cross-country and freight services.

In that assessment the inter regional services were assessed against 100mph electric stock, so I'd guess going to 125mph stock has whats made the 2 TPE paths possible. But how are you going to fit in a 100mph diesel path in that?

 

[sprinterguy]

But how are you going to fit in a 100mph diesel path in that?

90mph, in fact.

However, 4 intercity London services? Are there really intentions to increase the service level that much above the usual two per hour as at present (I didn't think the agreement in the VTEC franchise stretched to that sort of frequency)?

 

[Stats]

90mph, in fact.

even more problematic in finding a path.

However, 4 intercity London services? Are there really intentions to increase the service level that much above the usual two per hour as at present (I didn't think the agreement in the VTEC franchise stretched to that sort of frequency)?

At the time the report was done, it was 3 VTEC plus Alliance's Edinburgh OA proposal. VTEC's franchise agreement is for 2 Edinburgh and 1 Newcastle per hour. Since the report there is also First Group's OA proposal as well.