Northern line service levels

[snowleopard]

I fully realise this is “anecdata” but for the second evening in a row I find myself in a Central London Northern line station seeing an unusually large gap in northbound trains.

Yesterday evening, I was at King’s Cross St Pancras (so Bank branch) at around 8.45pm with long delays (>7mins from memory) shown for trains northbound.

Tonight I was at Charing Cross, arriving on the northbound Northern Line platform at shortly before 9pm. A High Barnet bound train had just left and the next trains were shown as Edgeware in 9mins and High Barnet in 13mins. These are unusually big gaps in service, yet TfL did not record any delay on the line in its status report.

Were these just coincidental flukes, with perhaps a train taken out of service on each evening accounting for my bad luck, or are there any deeper reliability issues (Central line style) on the Northern line which are making themselves shown in a timetable thinning out post-evening peak?

 

[trebor79]

Whole tube seems to be going to pot at the moment. Only the Jubilee and Victoria seem to be reliable. Entering South Kensington on Monday I was shocked to see 12 and 8 minutes waits for the next trains on the Piccadilly (I was heading for the district platforms, so not affected, but I thought that was awful). This was just before 6pm, so evening peak.

 

[WizCastro197]

I fully realise this is “anecdata” but for the second evening in a row I find myself in a Central London Northern line station seeing an unusually large gap in northbound trains.

Yesterday evening, I was at King’s Cross St Pancras (so Bank branch) at around 8.45pm with long delays (>7mins from memory) shown for trains northbound.

Tonight I was at Charing Cross, arriving on the northbound Northern Line platform at shortly before 9pm. A High Barnet bound train had just left and the next trains were shown as Edgeware in 9mins and High Barnet in 13mins. These are unusually big gaps in service, yet TfL did not record any delay on the line in its status report.

Were these just coincidental flukes, with perhaps a train taken out of service on each evening accounting for my bad luck, or are there any deeper reliability issues (Central line style) on the Northern line which are making themselves shown in a timetable thinning out post-evening peak?

I had 7 minutes at Tooting Bec last Saturday, understandably that’s not as bad as 9 mins and isn’t on a weekday either but I did think it was an unusually large gap I had to wait for.

 

[bramling]

I fully realise this is “anecdata” but for the second evening in a row I find myself in a Central London Northern line station seeing an unusually large gap in northbound trains.

Yesterday evening, I was at King’s Cross St Pancras (so Bank branch) at around 8.45pm with long delays (>7mins from memory) shown for trains northbound.

Tonight I was at Charing Cross, arriving on the northbound Northern Line platform at shortly before 9pm. A High Barnet bound train had just left and the next trains were shown as Edgeware in 9mins and High Barnet in 13mins. These are unusually big gaps in service, yet TfL did not record any delay on the line in its status report.

Were these just coincidental flukes, with perhaps a train taken out of service on each evening accounting for my bad luck, or are there any deeper reliability issues (Central line style) on the Northern line which are making themselves shown in a timetable thinning out post-evening peak?

The Northern Line doesn’t have any specific issues, unlike the Central and Jubilee, however like all LU lines they are quite short on drivers, and the 95 stock is worked more intensively these days compared to a decade ago. So generally if there’s a gap in the service it will either be no driver or no train, more likely the former. Arguably the line’s control function is more indifferent than they were a decade ago as well, for various reasons.

Ironically the Northern Line is regarded as one of the best performers at the moment, which given it is common to turn up at somewhere like Edgware to find the first train is in 11 mins, just shows how badly some of the other lines are doing.

 

[Recessio]

Perhaps "best" should be "least worst" performer!

 

[Daniel]

Arguably the line’s control function is more indifferent than they were a decade ago as well, for various reasons.

I'd love to know who you are sometimes

Ironically the Northern Line is regarded as one of the best performers at the moment, which given it is common to turn up at somewhere like Edgware to find the first train is in 11 mins, just shows how badly some of the other lines are doing.

Will be interesting to watch the upcoming Golden Whistle awards!

 

[Mikey C]

Big gaps on the Northern Line today too

 

[Taunton]

Whole tube seems to be going to pot at the moment. Only the Jubilee and Victoria seem to be reliable. Entering South Kensington on Monday I was shocked to see 12 and 8 minutes waits for the next trains on the Piccadilly (I was heading for the district platforms, so not affected, but I thought that was awful). This was just before 6pm, so evening peak.

Alas similar on Jubilee. One of the issues there is shortages (serviceable trains? drivers?) get an attempt at resolution by turning short at North Greenwich, trying to maintain the central section intervals, which leaves the stretch beyond with irregularity with passengers unable to board. Apparently it can't be done with Stratford crews, sending them back away from home again, only with Neasden crews, so the choice of which service to turn is itself random.

I do wonder if there is an interval measuring point on the central section and the undue emphasis is just on reported intervals at that point. The eastern end can be as busy, and occasionally more so, than the centre. Standing loads leaving Stratford are common. Unlike the sometimes extremely frequent intervals arriving at Stanmore mainly as empty stock.

 

[SteveHFC]

Alas similar on Jubilee. One of the issues there is shortages (serviceable trains? drivers?) get an attempt at resolution by turning short at North Greenwich, trying to maintain the central section intervals, which leaves the stretch beyond with irregularity with passengers unable to board. Apparently it can't be done with Stratford crews, sending them back away from home again, only with Neasden crews, so the choice of which service to turn is itself random.

I do wonder if there is an interval measuring point on the central section and the undue emphasis is just on reported intervals at that point. The eastern end can be as busy, and occasionally more so, than the centre. Standing loads leaving Stratford are common. Unlike the sometimes extremely frequent intervals arriving at Stanmore mainly as empty stock.

There aren't any Neasden crews on the Jubilee. Drivers are based at Stratford, North Greenwich and Wembley Park.

 

[trebor79]

Alas similar on Jubilee. One of the issues there is shortages (serviceable trains? drivers?) get an attempt at resolution by turning short at North Greenwich, trying to maintain the central section intervals, which leaves the stretch beyond with irregularity with passengers unable to board. Apparently it can't be done with Stratford crews, sending them back away from home again, only with Neasden crews, so the choice of which service to turn is itself random.

I arrived at Westminster off the District this evening to find a Stratford train just leaving, with the platform half full of people who'd been unable to get on.
Next train in.... 8 minutes! 2nd one minute behind that but then another 8 minute gap.
That's the worst I've ever seen. Middle of the evening rush too. Dreadful.

Gave that up as a bad job and got back on the Circle to Liverpool Street and then Lizzie to Stratford.

 

[Taunton]

Westminster is the high point of Jubilee eastbound patronage, if grossly overcrowded it can help to board a westbound one stop to Bond Street and come back from there. Normally quieter in the rear cars.

 

[Jimini]

Westminster is the high point of Jubilee eastbound patronage, if grossly overcrowded it can help to board a westbound one stop to Bond Street and come back from there. Normally quieter in the rear cars.

Would respectfully disagree with that. London Bridge eastbound is far worse, and then... the Canary Wharf loadings heading to Stratford speaks for itself!

 

[trebor79]

I've typically found the front car to be least full when going eastbound from Westminster.
If there's been a gap in service and I can see there's a few trains within a minute of each other I'll let a couple go crush loaded and then get a seat.

 

[bramling]

Alas similar on Jubilee. One of the issues there is shortages (serviceable trains? drivers?) get an attempt at resolution by turning short at North Greenwich, trying to maintain the central section intervals, which leaves the stretch beyond with irregularity with passengers unable to board. Apparently it can't be done with Stratford crews, sending them back away from home again, only with Neasden crews, so the choice of which service to turn is itself random.

It isn’t a case of where the driver is from, but more a case of where they are booked to hand over the train to someone else. If a relief is booked to take place at Stratford on that trip then essentially the train can’t be turned - except if there’s absolutely no other option for example the line towards Stratford is blocked. Obviously this will affect Stratford drivers more as they are more likely to finish there than North Greenwich or Wembley drivers. But yes you’re quite right this means the trains which get turned aren’t always the ideal ones from an end-user perspective.

The other problem with the Jubilee is that pretty much all their usable reversing points are required to be used for delivering the regular service. In an ideal world they would run an end-to-end service and take the hit on the wasted expense of massive over-provision at the Stanmore end. But there are nowhere near enough trains for this. The result is all three of the viable reversing points at the north end are used for timetable reversing moves, leaving little recovery options for use in emergency. Essentially the only options for turning trains are Charing Cross or North Greenwich, which isn’t much use if the driver is due off at Stratford.

 

[Taunton]

Would respectfully disagree with that. London Bridge eastbound is far worse, and then... the Canary Wharf loadings heading to Stratford speaks for itself!

It does vary with time of day, the OP was describing evening, when loads do fall off at Waterloo and London Bridge. Morning is the opposite, as you state, particularly on Canary Wharf midweek "office days". East of Canary Wharf is dependent on the regularity of the service and whether any are being turned at North Greenwich.

 

[AlbertBeale]

It isn’t a case of where the driver is from, but more a case of where they are booked to hand over the train to someone else. If a relief is booked to take place at Stratford on that trip then essentially the train can’t be turned - except if there’s absolutely no other option for example the line towards Stratford is blocked. Obviously this will affect Stratford drivers more as they are more likely to finish there than North Greenwich or Wembley drivers. But yes you’re quite right this means the trains which get turned aren’t always the ideal ones from an end-user perspective.

The other problem with the Jubilee is that pretty much all their usable reversing points are required to be used for delivering the regular service. In an ideal world they would run an end-to-end service and take the hit on the wasted expense of massive over-provision at the Stanmore end. But there are nowhere near enough trains for this. The result is all three of the viable reversing points at the north end are used for timetable reversing moves, leaving little recovery options for use in emergency. Essentially the only options for turning trains are Charing Cross or North Greenwich, which isn’t much use if the driver is due off at Stratford.

If you mean there are 3 viable reversing points to save having too many trains going all the way to Stanmore, where are those? Is it Wembley Park, Willesden Green and West Hampstead? They've almost all adjacent stations, so not the best combination I'd have thought. But if the overriding need is to save on mileage to Stanmore, I guess it all helps...

 

[hermit]

I was on an eastbound Jubilee Line train on Saturday morning with destination shown as West Ham. I’ve never noticed that before. Is that also a turning point?

 

[Mojo]

lt’s where the line’s depot is, Stratford Market depot, like many (not all) depots on the network, is accessible from both ends.

 

[bramling]

If you mean there are 3 viable reversing points to save having too many trains going all the way to Stanmore, where are those? Is it Wembley Park, Willesden Green and West Hampstead? They've almost all adjacent stations, so not the best combination I'd have thought. But if the overriding need is to save on mileage to Stanmore, I guess it all helps...

Yes exactly that, Wembley Park, Willesden Green and West Hampstead. It used to be the case that the last of those was left unused in the normal timetable, but this is no longer the case. The only other reversing points which don’t block running lines are Charing Cross and North Greenwich, neither of which are useful for west/north bound trains.

I was on an eastbound Jubilee Line train on Saturday morning with destination shown as West Ham. I’ve never noticed that before. Is that also a turning point?

Not really. A train terminating here will normally be because it’s going straight into Stratford Market Depot, either timetabled or unplanned. Or it could happen if there’s a problem at Stratford. There wouldn’t be any benefit in turning a train here for recovery purposes.

 

[Central]

It isn’t a case of where the driver is from, but more a case of where they are booked to hand over the train to someone else. If a relief is booked to take place at Stratford on that trip then essentially the train can’t be turned - except if there’s absolutely no other option for example the line towards Stratford is blocked. Obviously this will affect Stratford drivers more as they are more likely to finish there than North Greenwich or Wembley drivers. But yes you’re quite right this means the trains which get turned aren’t always the ideal ones from an end-user perspective.

The other problem with the Jubilee is that pretty much all their usable reversing points are required to be used for delivering the regular service. In an ideal world they would run an end-to-end service and take the hit on the wasted expense of massive over-provision at the Stanmore end. But there are nowhere near enough trains for this. The result is all three of the viable reversing points at the north end are used for timetable reversing moves, leaving little recovery options for use in emergency. Essentially the only options for turning trains are Charing Cross or North Greenwich, which isn’t much use if the driver is due off at Stratford.

Unless it’s changed since I retired Stratford crews do dead earlies,middle turns and late turns.North Greenwich crews do earlies,middle turns,dead lates and nights.

 

[Goldfish62]

On Tuesday I got down to the northbound platform at Waterloo at just after 0805 to find it jammed with people. Next train 3 min, couldn't board it and the next train was right behind it, which I did board. I assume that the train I couldn't board was no. 76, a Morden starter, and that the the preceeding one, from Battersea, 114, was missing.

 

[Mikey C]

Camden Town station was closed this evening (around 22:30ish), due to a lack of staff according to the driver.

Bit of a weird one, it's one thing a sleepy station not being open, but not a busy destination and interchange one.

 

[bramling]

Camden Town station was closed this evening (around 22:30ish), due to a lack of staff according to the driver.

Bit of a weird one, it's one thing a sleepy station not being open, but not a busy destination and interchange one.

I'm not fully certain, but I've heard it suggested that the current arrangement is it is not mandatory for staff to move from one station to another to cover an unplanned shortage.

With goodwill being essentially non-existent in LU over recent years, it's quite probable staff could have said no. And, to be honest, who can blame them?

Worth also remembering Camden Town is a horrific station to work at.

 

[WizCastro197]

What happened yesterday in the morning on the Northern line? Tooting Bec shut and long queues at Balham I’m hearing

 

[Dstock7080]

0755 fire alert Balham, smoke and sparks seen in tunnel.
Service suspended Morden-Kennington.
Initially thought to be negative pot but later diagnosed not to be. Further attempts to extinguish and reduce heat.
Services resumed 0910.

 

[RuddA]

I used the Northern line 3 times yesterday. Frequent service, but I can't ever remember seeing such filthy underground trains before. The seats were turning black! Is this typical or was I just unlucky?

 

[Recessio]

I used the Northern line 3 times yesterday. Frequent service, but I can't ever remember seeing such filthy underground trains before. The seats were turning black! Is this typical or was I just unlucky?

I've definitely noticed the stock looking dirtier and in a worse state of repair in recent years. (I think I've mentioned this before in another thread). I'm guessing the maintenance budgets have been cut? And the trains aren't getting any younger.

0755 fire alert Balham, smoke and sparks seen in tunnel.
Service suspended Morden-Kennington.
Initially thought to be negative pot but later diagnosed not to be. Further attempts to extinguish and reduce heat.
Services resumed 0910.

Not good. Is it known what the cause was, if not a pot?

 

[Dstock7080]

Not good. Is it known what the cause was, if not a pot?

“smoke from a grille under the track”

 

[Recessio]

“smoke from a grille under the track”

Thanks. Good work by LU and the services, for it to have not become a far worse incident.

 

[Route115?]

Arguably the line’s control function is more indifferent than they were a decade ago as well, for various reasons.

How much is automated these days? Ideally computers should help regulate the service. In parctice, I dare say, there is only so much you can do if a train is cancelled or runs late.

The other issue is service patterns. Regulating a line like the Victoria should not be too hard (hold the train in front by a minute). On the Western branches of the District line a cancellation will result in a 20 minute gap between trains which is far harder to "hide". The Central Line is much improved on Mon - Thu with the new TTN but you still get 13 minute gaps if a train is cancelled. I particularly disliked the Central Line TT with eight overlappting 20 minute services. Ealing Broadway would get very long gaps at the best of times and was a major traffic generator pre Liz Line. Even when the current problems are sorted out I would like to see a new TT.

Is it just my experience or are things worse at the weekend where traffic is now exceeding pre-covid levels? Presumably if there is a shortage of operators that is when it shows up most.