Northern 'names and shames' schools with high numbers of fare dodging pupils

[Tallguy]

Struck a chord with me, as my 20-something daughter's budget is predicated on her only paying for her daily rail commute c.20% of the time (not at all with my blessing) "why would I purchase a season ticket when I only pay once a week".

She does this by having an e-ticket purchase pending, but never actually clicking 'pay' unless she sees a ticket inspector, which more often than not she doesn't.

My niece who regularly visits her boyfriend via train brags about using the same tactic to hardly ever pay.

In both cases, and as in the BBC article the stations are barrier-less.

It seems bizarre to me that Northern leave such an obvious loophole open to be exploited.

Is there no check on the actual time of the ticket purchase vs the commencement of the journey?

Seems odd to me that Northern allow such an obvious loophole.

So when your daughter and niece get caught (and at some point they will get caught) your post above can be used by TIL, the train Co or Police etc against them.

I f payment is made via an app or credit card at a TVM or ticket office, the time of the transaction is automatically recorded As part of the audit record.

Roaming, random large scale ticket blocks at stations is the way to deal with this problem.

 

[LowLevel]

Saw this article on BBC earlier about Northern naming particular schools as having the worst offenders for fare dodging:

"Northern rail 'names and shames' schools over fare-dodging pupils
A train operator has "named and shamed" several schools for allegedly having large numbers of fare-dodging pupils.

Northern published a "top five" list, saying fare evasion mainly involved students travelling between rural and suburban stations without barriers."

Schools with fare-dodging pupils named and shamed - BBC News

Northern releases a list of five schools which it says has an issue with fare-evading students.

www.bbc.co.uk

Struck a chord with me, as my 20-something daughter's budget is predicated on her only paying for her daily rail commute c.20% of the time (not at all with my blessing) "why would I purchase a season ticket when I only pay once a week".

She does this by having an e-ticket purchase pending, but never actually clicking 'pay' unless she sees a ticket inspector, which more often than not she doesn't.

My niece who regularly visits her boyfriend via train brags about using the same tactic to hardly ever pay.

In both cases, and as in the BBC article the stations are barrier-less.

It seems bizarre to me that Northern leave such an obvious loophole open to be exploited.

Is there no check on the actual time of the ticket purchase vs the commencement of the journey?

Seems odd to me that Northern allow such an obvious loophole.

My ticket machine buzzes and flashes up with "Purchase after Depart", it is quite easy to smack these chancers with punitive action if the inspector is feeling so inclined. Then they come on here whinging about how they've been mistreated, their life is ruined, it was the first time etc and some of us have a quiet snigger at their expense.

 

[pemma]

@LowLevel How accurate is your machine? For example, if I turned up at a station at 07:55 and found a 07:45 service hadn't departed, would it claim I had purchased after departure if I purchased at 07:55?

And if the TVM at the station was out-of-order but there was no mobile signal, are you saying I could be penalised for buying on my mobile 'after departure' instead of waiting until I encounter revenue staff?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

@LowLevel How accurate is your machine? For example, if I turned up at a station at 07:55 and found a 07:45 service hadn't departed, would it claim I had purchased after departure if I purchased at 07:55?

And if the TVM at the station was out-of-order but there was no mobile signal, are you saying I could be penalised for buying on my mobile 'after departure' instead of waiting until I encounter revenue staff?

Of course you can be penalised for buying after departure, that is boarding a train without a valid ticket. It seems people think that you have to buy your ticket last minute these days, if you're buying on an app you could easily purchase it before leaving your house....or the evening before if you purchase an anytime ticket.

TTK (Ticket Keeper) is what we use and you can set it to your train service headcode so it will therefore compare the scan of your digital ticket to its timetable, and it does note if the service is running late, but a competent guard would be more interested it the time was moments before being checked. They may ask how come your ticket time is later than departure and if you said because I purchase as boarding as the train was late you would be fine in reality.

 

[WesternLancer]

Of course you can be penalised for buying after departure, that is boarding a train without a valid ticket. It seems people think that you have to buy your ticket last minute these days, if you're buying on an app you could easily purchase it before leaving your house....or the evening before if you purchase an anytime ticket.

TTK (Ticket Keeper) is what we use and you can set it to your train service headcode so it will therefore compare the scan of your digital ticket to its timetable, and it does note if the service is running late, but a competent guard would be more interested it the time was moments before being checked. They may ask how come your ticket time is later than departure and if you said because I purchase as boarding as the train was late you would be fine in reality.

I take it the poster's scanario is you wait to get to the platform, see your train is 10 mins late, buy the ticket in the time p[period of the 10 mins delay - but you are not yet on the train.

Someone may do this if they though 'it's delayed, delay might get worse, I'll abandon my journey if it does, not going to buy quite yet as it will save me the hassle of getting refund' - but then as train hoves into view at scheduled departure time +9 mins you buy ticket and get on, but then guard's checking scanner says 'bought after departure' as it's programmed with the scheduled departure time not the actual time. Even paper tickets have the time sold on them of course - it's just not possible to buy one from the ticket once on board the train

I think that is the point @pemma is asking @LowLevel about.

similar situation could happen if you headed down to platform and got a late running earlier train than the one you planned I would think (probably a situation many of us have found ourselves in)

 

[pemma]

Of course you can be penalised for buying after departure, that is boarding a train without a valid ticket.

As you clearly didn't get my post I'll give you a real example and ask for your response.

There was a a building collapse at Northwich station, closing the ticket office and meaning the TVMs were taken out-of-service. It's also in a mobile blackspot for certain mobile providers.

So if someone had got to Northwich station they may have no opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding.

Say that passenger was travelling to Altrincham and the guard didn't come through to sell a ticket, so they decided to buy a ticket on the mobile app before alighting. (Northern advertise you can buy tickets on their app on their information displays on board trains). The passenger had no intention of buying a mobile ticket but due to the lack of other ticket selling facilities they decided it was the least worst option.

If you were a revenue inspector at Altrincham station would you:
1. Penalise them for buying a ticket on their phone at the first opportunity they had, despite the railways doing everything they can to prevent that passenger buying a ticket (No ticket office, no ticket machines, no guard doing revenue)?
2. Thank the passenger for doing that as it means you have one less person to deal with?

I hope (2) would be the only option you would even consider. However, as revenue inspectors rarely have local knowledge, like not knowing how much of the Mid-Cheshire line is in a mobile blackspot or perhaps not even realising the station building collapse took the TVMs out, they often get it wrong, as highlighted by the number of reports about honest passengers being treated like criminals.

It seems people think that you have to buy your ticket last minute these days, if you're buying on an app you could easily purchase it before leaving your house....or the evening before if you purchase an anytime ticket.

I get that but it's not OK to penalise everyone and think well 70% of them actively avoided trying to buy a ticket, so lets punish the other 30% as well and that's someone else's problem to deal with later on.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I take it the poster's scanario is you wait to get to the platform, see your train is 10 mins late, buy the ticket in the time p[period of the 10 mins delay - but you are not yet on the train.

Someone may do this if they though 'it's delayed, delay might get worse, I'll abandon my journey if it does, not going to buy quite yet as it will save me the hassle of getting refund' - but then as train hoves into view at scheduled departure time +9 mins you buy ticket and get on, but then guard's checking scanner says 'bought after departure' as it's programmed with the scheduled departure time not the actual time. Even paper tickets have the time sold on them of course - it's just not possible to buy one from the ticket once on board the train

I think that is the point @pemma is asking @LowLevel about.

similar situation could happen if you headed down to platform and got a late running earlier train than the one you planned I would think (probably a situation many of us have found ourselves in)

As I said, I competent guard would see the time and know their train is running x minutes late and allow that leeway. If the passenger was asked about it then they would say just that, I purchased before boarding the train which was late, hence the later time. Absolutely no issue there at all. Not the same as purchasing en route when inspection is taking place.

As you clearly didn't get my post I'll give you a real example and ask for your response.

There was a a building collapse at Northwich station, closing the ticket office and meaning the TVMs were taken out-of-service. It's also in a mobile blackspot for certain mobile providers.

So if someone had got to Northwich station they may have no opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding.

Say that passenger was travelling to Altrincham and the guard didn't come through to sell a ticket, so they decided to buy a ticket on the mobile app before alighting. (Northern advertise you can buy tickets on their app on their information displays on board trains). The passenger had no intention of buying a mobile ticket but due to the lack of other ticket selling facilities they decided it was the least worst option.

If you were a revenue inspector at Altrincham station would you:
1. Penalise them for buying a ticket on their phone at the first opportunity they had, despite the railways doing everything they can to prevent that passenger buying a ticket (No ticket office, no ticket machines, no guard doing revenue)?
2. Thank the passenger for doing that as it means you have one less person to deal with?

I hope (2) would be the only option you would even consider. However, as revenue inspectors rarely have local knowledge, like not knowing how much of the Mid-Cheshire line is in a mobile blackspot or perhaps not even realising the station building collapse took the TVMs out, they often get it wrong, as highlighted by the number of reports about honest passengers being treated like criminals.



I get that but it's not OK to penalise everyone and think well 70% of them actively avoided trying to buy a ticket, so lets punish the other 30% as well and that's someone else's problem to deal with later on.

Clearly the Northwich incident would be quite clearly extenuating circumstances and all staff working that line knew of it. Not relevant to the original post at all.

The problem we have at the moment is there are far greater numbers of chancers than genuine unable to purchase before boarding. Wouldn't know exact figures but I get maybe 1-2 per day who couldn't purchase and maybe 5-6 who had issues with collecting tickets. If RPIs ask to board my train, I always pass on information such as this so they know I have already dealt with them and also if I've had passengers saying there are issues with a certain station's TVMs.

You can argue it's unfair to have the base approach as they have deliberately boarded without a valid ticket, however in my experience, it's the most likely and I am happy to be flexible and reasonable with genuine issues.

Revenue work to the same guidelines as guards at my TOC as they are in-house so would not treat it any differently, whether Northern would be that same I couldn't say.

 

[pemma]

Clearly the Northwich incident would be quite clearly extenuating circumstances and all staff working that line knew of it. Not relevant to the original post at all.

In that case a power cut can easily take out the station ticket office, TVMs and local mobile transmitters. Hardly an extreme example, even if power cuts aren't as common as they were in the 1980s.

If RPIs ask to board my train, I always pass on information such as this so they know I have already dealt with them and also if I've had passengers saying there are issues with a certain station's TVMs.

Northern generally don't work that way. (Remember this thread is about Northern). The only time I've seen RPIs board trains is when they are collecting data e.g. finding out how many people have no ticket before the guard walks through. They only look at tickets, they aren't even allowed to scan mobile tickets. On one occasion a guard refused to allow one to walk through the train checking tickets but allowed her to accompany him to get her data. (I heard the full conversation, he was very unhappy that a RPI had even been allowed to board a train he was working). RPIs who take action against passengers can be found on platforms, these rarely have interaction with the guard. Although, some (not all) guards do go and tell them if they don't have a working machine or didn't perform any revenue duties.

 

[py_megapixel]

Northern generally don't work that way. (Remember this thread is about Northern). The only time I've seen RPIs board trains is when they are collecting data e.g. finding out how many people have no ticket before the guard walks through. They only look at tickets, they aren't even allowed to scan mobile tickets.

Now if true (which I don't think it really is), that's just silly. Northern should be encouraging staff to scan tickets, as otherwise people will be able to just claim fraudulent refunds. The scan is also required to ensure that the ticket is not an old one being reused, or a cheaper one which has been photoshopped to make it look valid.

On one occasion a guard refused to allow one to walk through the train checking tickets but allowed her to accompany him to get her data. (I heard the full conversation, he was very unhappy that a RPI had even been allowed to board a train he was working).

Why is it any of the guard's business whether there's an RPI on the train or not? If they are not confident that the RPI has done a good job, there is nothing to stop them going through later and doing their own check (and collecting their ticket scanning commision).

 

[Wolfie]

So when your daughter and niece get caught (and at some point they will get caught) your post above can be used by TIL, the train Co or Police etc against them.

I f payment is made via an app or credit card at a TVM or ticket office, the time of the transaction is automatically recorded As part of the audit record.

Roaming, random large scale ticket blocks at stations is the way to deal with this problem.

Given that no TOC knows who Witloid actually is, who his daughter or niece are or their association firstly to him and secondly to that post l wish them all the best of luck in using it as evidence......

I take it the poster's scanario is you wait to get to the platform, see your train is 10 mins late, buy the ticket in the time p[period of the 10 mins delay - but you are not yet on the train.

Someone may do this if they though 'it's delayed, delay might get worse, I'll abandon my journey if it does, not going to buy quite yet as it will save me the hassle of getting refund' - but then as train hoves into view at scheduled departure time +9 mins you buy ticket and get on, but then guard's checking scanner says 'bought after departure' as it's programmed with the scheduled departure time not the actual time. Even paper tickets have the time sold on them of course - it's just not possible to buy one from the ticket once on board the train

I think that is the point @pemma is asking @LowLevel about.

similar situation could happen if you headed down to platform and got a late running earlier train than the one you planned I would think (probably a situation many of us have found ourselves in)

Absolutely valid points.

 

[skyhigh]

Northern generally don't work that way. (Remember this thread is about Northern). The only time I've seen RPIs board trains is when they are collecting data e.g. finding out how many people have no ticket before the guard walks through. They only look at tickets, they aren't even allowed to scan mobile tickets. On one occasion a guard refused to allow one to walk through the train checking tickets but allowed her to accompany him to get her data. (I heard the full conversation, he was very unhappy that a RPI had even been allowed to board a train he was working). RPIs who take action against passengers can be found on platforms, these rarely have interaction with the guard. Although, some (not all) guards do go and tell them if they don't have a working machine or didn't perform any revenue duties.

No - almost all of this post is incorrect. There are dedicated travelling RPIs who board trains in pairs, will scan all mobile tickets and sell tickets or issue penalty fares where appropriate. They are directly employed by Northern rather than agency staff.

There are occasionally ticketless travel surveys on board trains - in which an agency staff member will pass through before the guard and simply see who does not have a ticket. These stats are then used by DfT and the TOC to manage the direction of revenue teams and compliance against targets.

 

[Davester50]

So when your daughter and niece get caught (and at some point they will get caught) your post above can be used by TIL, the train Co or Police etc against them.

I f payment is made via an app or credit card at a TVM or ticket office, the time of the transaction is automatically recorded As part of the audit record.

I wonder if e-ticketing apps note accounts with multiple transactions set up but not completed

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Now if true (which I don't think it really is), that's just silly. Northern should be encouraging staff to scan tickets, as otherwise people will be able to just claim fraudulent refunds. The scan is also required to ensure that the ticket is not an old one being reused, or a cheaper one which has been photoshopped to make it look valid.


Why is it any of the guard's business whether there's an RPI on the train or not? If they are not confident that the RPI has done a good job, there is nothing to stop them going through later and doing their own check (and collecting their ticket scanning commision).

Because it's the guard's train. RPIs at WMT need to ask permission to work a train, sometimes train crew will decline if they are hot on tickets and don't won't to lose commission.

 

[Tallguy]

Given that no TOC knows who Witloid actually is, who his daughter or niece are or their association firstly to him and secondly to that post l wish them all the best of luck in using it as evidence......

Given that the Police could request the IP logs of this website and all known details of the poster, plus their potential digital footprint elsewhere, bragging about breaking the law on the internet is never a good idea.

 

[skyhigh]

Given that the Police could request the IP logs of this website and all known details of the poster, plus their potential digital footprint elsewhere, bragging about breaking the law on the internet is never a good idea.

There is an absolutely tiny tiny tiny chance that will ever happen as a result of a ticketing dispute.

 

[Wolfie]

Given that the Police could request the IP logs of this website and all known details of the poster, plus their potential digital footprint elsewhere, bragging about breaking the law on the internet is never a good idea.

They could.... But they need a bloody sight more grounds to do so than a random unsubstantiated internet post relating to a relatively trivial offence. Let's just say that l worked on RIPA issues for well over 10 years.

 

[py_megapixel]

Because it's the guard's train.

So what? It's not like every passenger has to go and ask permission to get on, is it!

I'm still sceptical about whether this is actually true. I've been on plenty of trains where the RPIs have just got on and had no conversation with the guard. Sometimes they get on as far away from the guard as possible, presumably to catch people who were "hiding" in the hope that the guard wouldn't reach them.

Next someone will be telling me that the litter picking staff have to ask permission to work on the train, and if the guard declines, the train leaves with the previous passengers' rubbish everywhere...

RPIs at WMT need to ask permission to work a train, sometimes train crew will decline if they are hot on tickets and don't won't to lose commission.

I'm rather surprised that the TOC is happy for individual guards' commission to be put ahead of revenue protection as a whole. It certainly doesn't seem like a sensible policy to an outsider...

 

[skyhigh]

I'm rather surprised that the TOC is happy for individual guards' commission to be put ahead of revenue protection as a whole. It certainly doesn't seem like a sensible policy whatsoever to an outsider...

It's definitely not Northern policy, and the stuff about RPIs not scanning e-tickets that started this is untrue too.

 

[py_megapixel]

It's definitely not Northern policy, and the stuff about RPIs not scanning e-tickets that started this is untrue too.

I was sceptical of that also. It doesn't really make any sense... after all, there's very little value in looking at an e-ticket without scanning it!

 

[SCDR_WMR]

So what? It's not like every passenger has to go and ask permission to get on, is it!

I'm still sceptical about whether this is actually true. I've been on plenty of trains where the RPIs have just got on and had no conversation with the guard. Sometimes they get on as far away from the guard as possible, presumably to catch people who were "hiding" in the hope that the guard wouldn't reach them.

Next someone will be telling me that the litter picking staff have to ask permission to work on the train, and if the guard declines, the train leaves with the previous passengers' rubbish everywhere...


I'm rather surprised that the TOC is happy for individual guards' commission to be put ahead of revenue protection as a whole. It certainly doesn't seem like a sensible policy to an outsider...

It is deemed acceptable as having RPIs take away all of guards commission from trains eats into take home pay even more. It's something that has been an issue for a while. A passenger should have a ticket entitling them to board a train. An RPI is entitled to board a train too, but they most definitely seek permission at the 2 depots I've worked from in the last 5 years

 

[PupCuff]

Lord, if you tried to make some of the RPIs I've worked with over my years on the railway ask permission to do tickets I know which one of the two would be walking away with their tail between their legs and it wouldn't be the one with the penalty fare pad!

Generally speaking though there is an unwritten agreement that if the RPI finds someone who wants a decently pricey ticket or first class upgrade or whatnot the conductor can issue it to get the commission.

 

[LowLevel]

Lord, if you tried to make some of the RPIs I've worked with over my years on the railway ask permission to do tickets I know which one of the two would be walking away with their tail between their legs and it wouldn't be the one with the penalty fare pad!

Generally speaking though there is an unwritten agreement that if the RPI finds someone who wants a decently pricey ticket or first class upgrade or whatnot the conductor can issue it to get the commission.

Depends on the TOC - on ours they are also meant to approach the guard before starting work and can be refused permission to check tickets though not to travel on the train.

Stupid if you ask me. Particularly if it's a penalty fare route they should make the guard aware they're on board but should be allowed to work.

 

[TUC]

Of course you can be penalised for buying after departure, that is boarding a train without a valid ticket. It seems people think that you have to buy your ticket last minute these days, if you're buying on an app you could easily purchase it before leaving your house....or the evening before if you purchase an anytime ticket.

You could, but why would you necessarily? The nature of online purchasing is to enable quick, last-minute decisions. I've been at stations where the service I wanted has been delayed, and then further delayed. There is a point beyond which, if I'm going to get to my meeting on time, I'm going to have to go back to my car and drive there. In such circumstances, why would I want to purchase my ticket before I see the train actually approaching the station?

 

[E100]

I say this in jest. They should attach a 153 to back of the train and do selective door opening with the 153 getting all the pupils and then detach at the relevant station, allowing anyone travelling further to board the other portion. Shunt it into a siding for the return.

 

[pemma]

and the stuff about RPIs not scanning e-tickets that started this is untrue too.

You mustn't have seen RPIs doing the same role as the ones I have seen. They ask to see tickets and just record how many people have a ticket. No QR code scanning, no marking paper tickets and no NFC scan on smartcards. If someone asks to buy one, they inform them the guard will be along to sell tickets. They are there for gathering data and don't do any aspect of the guard's role.

Why is it any of the guard's business whether there's an RPI on the train or not? If they are not confident that the RPI has done a good job, there is nothing to stop them going through later and doing their own check (and collecting their ticket scanning commision).

Speaking as an outsider and ignoring anything related to commission. If I was asked to do a role, I wouldn't expect someone else to turn up and start doing the same role unless it had already been communicated to me that someone would be assisting. In fact it would annoy me that management aren't properly communicating with employees.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I say this in jest. They should attach a 153 to back of the train and do selective door opening with the 153 getting all the pupils and then detach at the relevant station, allowing anyone travelling further to board the other portion. Shunt it into a siding for the return.

Funnily enough the main reason the passenger service on the Clayton West branch survived until 1983 was school traffic to Honley. They didn't split or join at any point though- which perhaps could have happened if the line survived long enough to get 2nd gen units, particularly if the singling (Springwood junction to Stocksmoor) had still happened once the pit closed.

I have no idea how fares were handled with the schoolkids back then, but my brother owns this old poster with information about "pay-trains" (which unfortunately isn't too easy to read the smaller print- apologies!):

 

[bcarmicle]

You mustn't have seen RPIs doing the same role as the ones I have seen. They ask to see tickets and just record how many people have a ticket. No QR code scanning, no marking paper tickets and no NFC scan on smartcards. If someone asks to buy one, they inform them the guard will be along to sell tickets. They are there for gathering data and don't do any aspect of the guard's role.

That sounds like a ticketless travel survey rather than revenue protection.

 

[skyhigh]

You mustn't have seen RPIs doing the same role as the ones I have seen. They ask to see tickets and just record how many people have a ticket. No QR code scanning, no marking paper tickets and no NFC scan on smartcards. If someone asks to buy one, they inform them the guard will be along to sell tickets. They are there for gathering data and don't do any aspect of the guard's role.

That is a ticketless travel survey done by agency staff who are not RPIs. No, RPIs do no safety critical aspect of the guards role e.g. doors but they absolutely do scan tickets, sell and issue penalty fares where appropriate. If they didn't do any of that, what would be their purpose?

 

[farleigh]

Lord, if you tried to make some of the RPIs I've worked with over my years on the railway ask permission to do tickets I know which one of the two would be walking away with their tail between their legs and it wouldn't be the one with the penalty fare pad!

Generally speaking though there is an unwritten agreement that if the RPI finds someone who wants a decently pricey ticket or first class upgrade or whatnot the conductor can issue it to get the commission.

Apologies if I have misunderstood...

Does that mean that if there are two people on a train, one needing a low value ticket and the other a high value ticket then the first will receive a penalty fare or possible prosecution whilst the other would likely be sold a ticket.

Again, apologies if I have misunderstood your point.

 

[skyhigh]

Apologies if I have misunderstood...

Does that mean that if there are two people on a train, one needing a low value ticket and the other a high value ticket then the first will receive a penalty fare or possible prosecution whilst the other would likely be sold a ticket.

Again, apologies if I have misunderstood your point.

You've misunderstood. If a penalty fare is appropriate to be issued, that will be done regardless of the fare - it's only cases where the RPI would have sold a ticket themselves if appropriate that if it's high value the guard may be asked if they want to sell it.