Northern Tender for up to 450 units

[LNW-GW Joint]

Lots 1 and 2 of Phase 1, supposedly for future electric TRU services, amount to 121 units.
Assuming the TPE procurement of trains for longer distances is separate, how do Northern plan to deploy 121 new trains (3/4-car)?
Does it include BEMUs for places like Wigan, Bradford, York and Hull, and maybe Calder Valley services, which will work partially via TRU?
Lot 3 (6 units) looks like the replacement of the class 769 bi-modes.

 

[skyhigh]

Assuming the TPE procurement of trains for longer distances is separate, how do Northern plan to deploy 121 new trains (3/4-car)?

By my count, Northern have roughly 204 15x (mainly 2 car, with a handful of 3 car). 121 3 and 4 car units seem to pretty much be a full 15x fleet replacement, which is what we've been told the plan is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Assuming the TPE procurement of trains for longer distances is separate, how do Northern plan to deploy 121 new trains (3/4-car)?

Via some cascading (e.g. 2-car 195s onto the branch lines), I understand the intention is for it to be a full fleet replacement other than Classes 195 and 331. Basically a Greater Anglia like transformation.

 

[Greybeard33]

Lot 3 (6 units) looks like the replacement of the class 769 bi-modes.

Lot 3 is 6 x 4-car battery-only (single mode) units. I imagine that the intention is that they would use the fast charge technology that GWR is testing on the Greenford branch, and that they would be used on routes that will remain completely devoid of OLE, except maybe at one terminus (so little benefit from lugging a transformer and pantograph around).

The 8 x 4-car 769 diesel/OLE bi-modes will more likely be replaced by some of the Lot 2 multi-modes.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

By my count, Northern have roughly 204 15x (mainly 2 car, with a handful of 3 car). 121 3 and 4 car units seem to pretty much be a full 15x fleet replacement, which is what we've been told the plan is.

I remember seeing that Northern could take back the Huddersfield line stoppers from TPE post-TRU, that'd be EMUs.

To write things down a bit simpler: (all estimated values from the earlier document)
Phase 1 - 55*3 cars, 72*4 cars (453 carriages)
Lot 1 - EMU - 11*3 cars (33 carriages)
Lot 2 - MMU - 44*3 cars, 66*4 cars (396 carriages)
Lot 3 - BEMU - 6*4 cars (24 carriages)

Phase 2 - 64*3 cars, 62*4 cars (440 carriages)
Lot 1 - EMU - 34*3 cars, 16*4 cars (166 carriages)
Lot 2 - MMU - 30*3 cars, 20*4 cars (170 carriages)
Lot 3 - BEMU - 26*4 cars (104 carriages)

I count 186 Sprinters with Northern (14 3 car, 386 carriages total)

75 150s (6 3 car, 156 carriages)
7 155s (14 carriages)
51 156s (102 carriages)
53 158s (8 3 car, 144 carriages)

There's also 8 769s (32 carriages) and 16 170s (48 carriages) which pushes the number of units to 210 (466 carriages).

Via some cascading (e.g. 2-car 195s onto the branch lines), I understand the intention is for it to be a full fleet replacement other than Classes 195 and 331. Basically a Greater Anglia like transformation.

If we add the 34 323s (17 ex-WMT, 102 carriages) and the 16 333s (64 carriages), we get .
In total that's 172 2 cars, 64 3 cars, 24 4 cars, 260 units (599 carriages)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lot 3 is 6 x 4-car battery-only (single mode) units. I imagine that the intention is that they would use the fast charge technology that GWR is testing on the Greenford branch, and that they would be used on routes that will remain completely devoid of OLE, except maybe at one terminus (so little benefit from lugging a transformer and pantograph around).

I'm intrigued where that would be useful - the quiet unwired branch lines will just get 2-car 195s. Perhaps an experiment?

'Arrigut maybe if the turnarounds are tight? Morecambe I reckon spends enough time under the wires that OHLE and battery would work, but really that only needs 2-car, unless they're thinking ahead to Eden Project? But then the stations on that are all 3-car platforms and not necessarily easy to extend.

I'm intrigued - they're clearly for a specific trial but where?

 

[Meerkat]

I'm intrigued where that would be useful - the quiet unwired branch lines will just get 2-car 195s. Perhaps an experiment?

'Arrigut maybe if the turnarounds are tight? Morecambe I reckon spends enough time under the wires that OHLE and battery would work, but really that only needs 2-car, unless they're thinking ahead to Eden Project? But then the stations on that are all 3-car platforms and not necessarily easy to extend.

I'm intrigued - they're clearly for a specific trial but where?

Whitby?

 

[Greybeard33]

I'm intrigued where that would be useful - the quiet unwired branch lines will just get 2-car 195s. Perhaps an experiment?

'Arrigut maybe if the turnarounds are tight? Morecambe I reckon spends enough time under the wires that OHLE and battery would work, but really that only needs 2-car, unless they're thinking ahead to Eden Project? But then the stations on that are all 3-car platforms and not necessarily easy to extend.

I'm intrigued - they're clearly for a specific trial but where?

How about Hull - Bridlington - Scarborough and Hull - Doncaster - Sheffield? There might be enough demand to justify a 4-car by the time these are in traffic.
Edit: Or the Hope Valley stopper and New Mills Central via Bredbury?

 

[py_megapixel]

Edit: Or the Hope Valley stopper and New Mills Central via Bredbury?

The Hope Valley stoppers can be busy but a lot of that is because people use them as a cheaper (and more reliable) alternative to TPE and EMR between Manchester and Sheffield. I'd suggest the investment would be better directed at lengthening the fast services on that route so that there is enough capacity to offer cheap tickets on those, which would then free up capacity on the stoppers indirectly. I'm not saying we shouldn't be putting additional stock on the stoppers if it's justified for other reasons though.

 

[Killingworth]

The Hope Valley stoppers can be busy but a lot of that is because people use them as a cheaper (and more reliable) alternative to TPE and EMR between Manchester and Sheffield. I'd suggest the investment would be better directed at lengthening the fast services on that route so that there is enough capacity to offer cheap tickets on those, which would then free up capacity on the stoppers indirectly. I'm not saying we shouldn't be putting additional stock on the stoppers if it's justified for other reasons though.

There are other threads that touch on the specific aspect of Northern's role on this route that I've highlighted. The point made is very valid.

Leisure users in particular are happy to accept a slower time for a lower fare, especially when the service is likely to be more reliable. TPE and EMR require more rolling stock to strengthen their trains because their services extend beyond the core route. Adding carriages to Northern trains still adds expense but is more cost effective to increase capacity. It might be best to lengthen all Northern trains to 4 car before adding more to the fasts.

Which brings this diversion back to topic. Hope Valley stoppers and the New Mills services are normally 3 car 195 or 4 car 15x combinations. Occasionally it may be a 5 or 6 car 195 on Hope Valley, unfortunately not coinciding with lovely sunny days as well as it might. That's a problem on a route with no barrier controls before or after Piccadilly. Revenue inspection is impossible when passengers are rammed in like sardines. When longer trains run regular users know that if they board the first unit they're very unlikely to be checked.

Any new stock must have walk through provision to ease both load spreading and revenue control.

 

[Trainbike46]

Any new stock must have walk through provision to ease both load spreading and revenue control.

Or long enough to not/rarely require double units