Northern unable to follow their own rules.

[robbeech]

Went to Harrogate Thursday with the wife for a couple of days away. In the late afternoon we decided to go to Knaresborough, out on the bus and back on the train.
Wanted to pay by cash (£5.20 for the 2 of us, SDSs with a two together railcard in the evening peak).
Obtained a promise to pay to that effect and awaited the guard (fully expecting to pay at Harrogate gateline).

Unfortunately this is where it went a bit wrong.
There had been a bit of a queue of people wanting Starbeck to Harrogate singles, none of them got on at Starbeck of course but what can you do when you run 170s with a cab door?
Derek the polite member of staff at the gateline was unable to sell us a ticket for cash as he didn’t have any change. None, not a penny. We were the first people “all week” to have wanted to pay by cash.

He said we could pay by card, and I questioned why people were allowed to pay by card when the rules printed clearly on station signs say that you must buy a ticket or obtain a promise to pay before boarding. In the end he opted to let us through the gateline so I could go to the ticket office to buy a ticket with cash, which we did. I asked the member of staff there what the point of the rules were and he had a few choice words about the whole thing.

What is the point of this nonsense about buying a ticket before you board if you can just buy a ticket with no penalty for not doing? I can’t remember the last time I walked through an open barrier at Harrogate but I can only assume they are open at some point else people might not take the risk. Or is it genuinely done like this to deliberately lure people into a false sense of security so they can do a revenue block and make more from it?

My main gripe is that their attitude stinks, passengers in the eyes of Northern (and many other operators) are nothing but scum, and their aggressive signs and rules make you feel like a criminal for so much as looking at a train which is enough to put many people back in their cars in itself. However, to go to that effort of treating your customers with so much anger and then after all that not actually be able to fulfil the process you’ve aggressively forced your passengers to follow is sickening.

I shall write to Northern and ask a few questions and get them to clarify their stance on paying by cash. I suspect Ctrl C and V are already primed for their reply.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

From “the polite member of staff at the gateline” with no change, to Northern thinking that passengers “are nothing but scum”.

That’s quite a leap.

 

[robbeech]

From “the polite member of staff at the gateline” with no change, to Northern thinking that passengers “are nothing but scum”.

That’s quite a leap.

It is indeed quite a leap, and it shows the difference between what the staff on the ground think and what the people at the top think. It’s not Derek’s fault he hasn’t been provided with the training on the rules or procedures, nor is it his fault he didn’t have cash for change.

 

[Class800]

It is indeed quite a leap, and it shows the difference between what the staff on the ground think and what the people at the top think. It’s not Derek’s fault he hasn’t been provided with the training on the rules or procedures, nor is it his fault he didn’t have cash for change.

Thanks @robbeech for your interesting story and insight. It also shows how differently the railway operates than many workplaces. In my work, it is absolutely my own responsibility to ensure I have the training, knowledge and any equipment/tools/items I require to do my job. I always find it interesting how different sectors of the economy see things differently. I suppose difference makes this world a more interesting place.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Thanks @robbeech for your interesting story and insight. It also shows how differently the railway operates than many workplaces. In my work, it is absolutely my own responsibility to ensure I have the training, knowledge and any equipment/tools/items I require to do my job. I always find it interesting how different sectors of the economy see things differently. I suppose difference makes this world a more interesting place.

It also highlights the lack of desire to improve ones performance

 

[yorkie]

I don't trust Northern one bit in the area of revenue protection/collection; the company appears to lack sufficient safeguards to ensure fair treatment of passengers and they are indeed very poor at following the rules themselves. The level of training given to staff appears to be very poor, and the quality of staff is very variable and inconsistent.

 

[NCC-1701]

Went to Harrogate Thursday with the wife for a couple of days away. In the late afternoon we decided to go to Knaresborough, out on the bus and back on the train.
Wanted to pay by cash (£5.20 for the 2 of us, SDSs with a two together railcard in the evening peak).
Obtained a promise to pay to that effect and awaited the guard (fully expecting to pay at Harrogate gateline).

Unfortunately this is where it went a bit wrong.
There had been a bit of a queue of people wanting Starbeck to Harrogate singles, none of them got on at Starbeck of course but what can you do when you run 170s with a cab door?
Derek the polite member of staff at the gateline was unable to sell us a ticket for cash as he didn’t have any change. None, not a penny. We were the first people “all week” to have wanted to pay by cash.

He said we could pay by card, and I questioned why people were allowed to pay by card when the rules printed clearly on station signs say that you must buy a ticket or obtain a promise to pay before boarding. In the end he opted to let us through the gateline so I could go to the ticket office to buy a ticket with cash, which we did. I asked the member of staff there what the point of the rules were and he had a few choice words about the whole thing.

What is the point of this nonsense about buying a ticket before you board if you can just buy a ticket with no penalty for not doing? I can’t remember the last time I walked through an open barrier at Harrogate but I can only assume they are open at some point else people might not take the risk. Or is it genuinely done like this to deliberately lure people into a false sense of security so they can do a revenue block and make more from it?

My main gripe is that their attitude stinks, passengers in the eyes of Northern (and many other operators) are nothing but scum, and their aggressive signs and rules make you feel like a criminal for so much as looking at a train which is enough to put many people back in their cars in itself. However, to go to that effort of treating your customers with so much anger and then after all that not actually be able to fulfil the process you’ve aggressively forced your passengers to follow is sickening.

I shall write to Northern and ask a few questions and get them to clarify their stance on paying by cash. I suspect Ctrl C and V are already primed for their reply.

So the gate line staff had no change and as a result offered you the option to pay by card; instead you wanted an argument with said staff member who then pointed you in the direction of the booking office which had change and the ability to accept cash. You then proceeded to waste everyone’s time for another self entitled argument.

I’m by no means an advocate for Northerns or most of the TOCs attitude, but after years in retail I would say your attitude denotes the staff members response.

Sadly if you treat the people serving you like ‘scum’ you’ll be treated the same way.

 

[DanNCL]

So the gate line staff had no change and as a result offered you the option to pay by card; instead you wanted an argument with said staff member who then pointed you in the direction of the booking office which had change and the ability to accept cash. You then proceeded to waste everyone’s time for another self entitled argument.

I’m by no means an advocate for Northerns or most of the TOCs attitude, but after years in retail I would say your attitude denotes the staff members response.

Sadly if you treat the people serving you like ‘scum’ you’ll be treated the same way.

Sorry, so insisting on paying with cash as one is entitled to do so according to NRCOT is treating staff ‘like scum’ is it?

 

[robbeech]

So the gate line staff had no change and as a result offered you the option to pay by card; instead you wanted an argument with said staff member who then pointed you in the direction of the booking office which had change and the ability to accept cash. You then proceeded to waste everyone’s time for another self entitled argument.

I’m by no means an advocate for Northerns or most of the TOCs attitude, but after years in retail I would say your attitude denotes the staff members response.

Sadly if you treat the people serving you like ‘scum’ you’ll be treated the same way.

Yes that’s clearly what happened here……..

The interactions were very polite, from both sides, I merely questioned why the rules and what they were suggesting were polar opposites.

It’s quite amusing that you consider me wanting to pay for my ticket in cash, and (unlike everyone else at that time) following the rules set out by the railway is somehow treating them like scum.

I think it is clear that your attitude follows that of the railway which rather proves my point more than it gets your somewhat deluded one across.

I’m not sure where the second “self entitled” argument was. The ticket office member fully agreed with me that the system is a joke and that the rules should be followed. Their choice words were about the system, and to a point about the other member of staff, not about me wanting to pay by cash.

If you genuinely think that a passenger wanting to pay by cash for a rail journey is treating the railway like scum then there is likely nothing people can say to change that opinion. Quite ironic if anything.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Yes that’s clearly what happened here……..

The interactions were very polite, from both sides, I merely questioned why the rules and what they were suggesting were polar opposites.

It’s quite amusing that you consider me wanting to pay for my ticket in cash, and (unlike everyone else at that time) following the rules set out by the railway is somehow treating them like scum.

I think it is clear that your attitude follows that of the railway which rather proves my point more than it gets your somewhat deluded one across.

I’m not sure where the second “self entitled” argument was. The ticket office member fully agreed with me that the system is a joke and that the rules should be followed. Their choice words were about the system, and to a point about the other member of staff, not about me wanting to pay by cash.

If you genuinely think that a passenger wanting to pay by cash for a rail journey is treating the railway like scum then there is likely nothing people can say to change that opinion. Quite ironic if anything.

On a rail forum I think you will find a stout defence of anything the railway companies do or say to anyone with even the most minor criticism of railway staff. This is, as might be expected, not the forum to get an objective response.

 

[Haywain]

It’s quite amusing that you consider me wanting to pay for my ticket in cash, and (unlike everyone else at that time) following the rules set out by the railway is somehow treating them like scum.

To be fair, I thought that the poster had just horribly misinterpreted your post.

 

[DeverseSam]

According to NRE, Starbeck has a card-only machine, but for Knaresbrough it doesn’t specify card-only. Does this mean that it takes cash as well?

 

[skyhigh]

According to NRE, Starbeck has a card-only machine, but for Knaresbrough it doesn’t specify card-only. Does this mean that it takes cash as well?

No, it's card only.

 

[yorkie]

On a rail forum I think you will find a stout defence of anything the railway companies do or say to anyone with even the most minor criticism of railway staff. This is, as might be expected, not the forum to get an objective response.

I disagee; I would say this forum is an excellent place to discuss any fares related matter.

While there might be a tiny minority to defend (almost) "anything" the railway companies do, this really isn't in any way representative and is exaggerated.

If anyone defends malpractice, then they can expect to be challenged. Misinformation can be reported to us and it may in some cases be subject to challenge by other members or may be subject to deletion (this depends on various factors, such as how early it is reported and the quantity and quality of any replies, and more).

Many of the people who contribute to this section do work within/for the rail industry (including various suppliers, not necessarily train operators themselves) but that doesn't mean they aren't keen to see good outcomes for passengers and for relevant laws/conditions to be adhered to by the train operators; on the contrary, many people work within the sector because they want to be in a position to help passengers!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, so insisting on paying with cash as one is entitled to do so according to NRCOT is treating staff ‘like scum’ is it?

The OP insisted on paying with cash and was asked to do so at the booking office, which was open and accepted cash. What's the problem? I've rocked up at Euston gateline with an RTV and no ticket and was sent to the booking office to pay, which I did and popped back (as I'm honest and wasn't in a hurry) to give the outward portion to the gateline person having done so.

Some staff offer discretion that they don't have to for various reasons. Some people seem to take exception to this except when they're next not quite in the right and get an MG11 written up. I'd just keep myself to myself on that - "I'd like to pay cash please" -> "OK, can you go to the booking office" -> "OK, cheers" is all that was needed.

(I do wonder if it'd make sense to have a few cash-only TVMs inside major Northern gatelines, though - RPIs can do odd spot-checks that a PTP was obtained first, or maybe they could be issued with a barcode and those TVMs be able to scan them)

 

[Haywain]

I do wonder if it'd make sense to have a few cash-only TVMs inside major Northern gatelines, though - RPIs can do odd spot-checks that a PTP was obtained first, or maybe they could be issued with a barcode and those TVMs be able to scan them

In theory, such TVMs could be set to accept cash only but it would just make short faring much easier. When there was a TVM for ticket sales inside the gateline at Leeds I understand that it almost exclusively sold tickets from Burley Park to Leeds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In theory, such TVMs could be set to accept cash only but it would just make short faring much easier. When there was a TVM for ticket sales inside the gateline at Leeds I understand that it almost exclusively sold tickets from Burley Park to Leeds.

Another thread I've come across pointed out that there's one inside the gateline at MKC I've never noticed before (because I've never arrived there without a ticket). I bet Bletchley and Wolverton are popular on that one. I guess it's a balance.

 

[island]

In theory, such TVMs could be set to accept cash only but it would just make short faring much easier. When there was a TVM for ticket sales inside the gateline at Leeds I understand that it almost exclusively sold tickets from Burley Park to Leeds.

Yes indeed. Human nature is such that lying to a machine feels easier than lying to a human.

 

[Deerfold]

In theory, such TVMs could be set to accept cash only but it would just make short faring much easier. When there was a TVM for ticket sales inside the gateline at Leeds I understand that it almost exclusively sold tickets from Burley Park to Leeds.

Whilst it was very useful for genuine travellers. I often picked up Leeds - London tickets there when I wasn't sure where I'd be travelling to Leeds from when I booked.

Of course, now most of my tickets are e-tickets, so I hadn't actually noticed it had gone.

I'm sure those short farers are buying their Burley Park to Leeds tickets as e-tickets, too.

 

[DanNCL]

The OP insisted on paying with cash and was asked to do so at the booking office, which was open and accepted cash. What's the problem? I've rocked up at Euston gateline with an RTV and no ticket and was sent to the booking office to pay, which I did and popped back (as I'm honest and wasn't in a hurry) to give the outward portion to the gateline person having done so.

Some staff offer discretion that they don't have to for various reasons. Some people seem to take exception to this except when they're next not quite in the right and get an MG11 written up. I'd just keep myself to myself on that - "I'd like to pay cash please" -> "OK, can you go to the booking office" -> "OK, cheers" is all that was needed.

(I do wonder if it'd make sense to have a few cash-only TVMs inside major Northern gatelines, though - RPIs can do odd spot-checks that a PTP was obtained first, or maybe they could be issued with a barcode and those TVMs be able to scan them)

The post I was replying to suggested that the OP had treated railway staff “like scum” when it was very clear that the OP had done no such thing. That’s the problem.

 

[Haywain]

Of course, now most of my tickets are e-tickets, so I hadn't actually noticed it had gone.

The LNER machine has been removed but the Northern operated machine remains (for ticket collection only, I believe).

 

[robbeech]

The OP insisted on paying with cash and was asked to do so at the booking office, which was open and accepted cash. What's the problem? I've rocked up at Euston gateline with an RTV and no ticket and was sent to the booking office to pay, which I did and popped back (as I'm honest and wasn't in a hurry) to give the outward portion to the gateline person having done so.

Some staff offer discretion that they don't have to for various reasons. Some people seem to take exception to this except when they're next not quite in the right and get an MG11 written up. I'd just keep myself to myself on that - "I'd like to pay cash please" -> "OK, can you go to the booking office" -> "OK, cheers" is all that was needed.

(I do wonder if it'd make sense to have a few cash-only TVMs inside major Northern gatelines, though - RPIs can do odd spot-checks that a PTP was obtained first, or maybe they could be issued with a barcode and those TVMs be able to scan them)

I agree, but the offer of paying cash at the booking office was NOT forthcoming without questioning the rules. Had I not explained this it’s not known whether the offer would have presented itself or whether I’d have been turned away, or offered something else.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree, but the offer of paying cash at the booking office was NOT forthcoming without questioning the rules. Had I not explained this it’s not known whether the offer would have presented itself or whether I’d have been turned away, or offered something else.

Rather than questioning the rules, would "I'm sorry, I've only got cash, how can I use that please?" have been less contentious?

 

[pdq]

Notwithstanding some slightly OTT language in the OP, isn't the point of debate that people buying at the gateline should only be using cash, and only in exchange for a Promise to Pay note. This is assuming that there is a working TVM at their starting station (or even at their 'quoted' starting station). Yet the OP was supposedly the first person that week to be asking for a cash fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Notwithstanding some slightly OTT language in the OP, isn't the point of debate that people buying at the gateline should only be using cash, and only in exchange for a Promise to Pay note. This is assuming that there is a working TVM at their starting station (or even at their 'quoted' starting station). Yet the OP was supposedly the first person that week to be asking for a cash fare.

As per the other thread on the matter, what discretion is shown to other passengers isn't really the OP's business. All that is of their concern is that they wanted to pay cash and they were provided the opportunity to do that.

 

[robbeech]

Rather than questioning the rules, would "I'm sorry, I've only got cash, how can I use that please?" have been less contentious?

Which was how the conversation was initiated. I’d like to pay by cash please.
To essentially be told that simply wasn’t possible, it was them that immediately told me they had no change and that everyone else paid by card so I had to pay by card. The options at that point quickly became either, discuss the rules or i assume some form of unpaid fare situation which I suspect would have carried a penalty when northern dealt with it, the station manager was nowhere to be seen. If people think that at this point I should have accepted that in a few weeks I’d be asked to pay the fare plus £150 (or at least be threatened with that) then that is concerning, we have to remember that whilst I would be able and happy to contest that, many regular passengers would not and would pay up, which is I hope you would agree, completely unacceptable.

 

[Birmingham]

I had a ticket office refuse to take cash from me recently, directed me to the TVM (this was at the beginning of a journey). I’m not sure if they are allowed to do this but I wasn’t impressed.

 

[jamiearmley]

Which was how the conversation was initiated. I’d like to pay by cash please.
To essentially be told that simply wasn’t possible, it was them that immediately told me they had no change and that everyone else paid by card so I had to pay by card. The options at that point quickly became either, discuss the rules or i assume some form of unpaid fare situation which I suspect would have carried a penalty when northern dealt with it, the station manager was nowhere to be seen. If people think that at this point I should have accepted that in a few weeks I’d be asked to pay the fare plus £150 (or at least be threatened with that) then that is concerning, we have to remember that whilst I would be able and happy to contest that, many regular passengers would not and would pay up, which is I hope you would agree, completely unacceptable.

A highly dramatic scene, indeed.

I would hazard a guess that, had you agreed to be issued with an unpaid fares notice, (which would have been for the fare, nothing else), you would have 'paid it' within the time limit.

Therefore, the issue of 'the fare plus £150' would not arise.

The extra charges begin to appear when people 'break the rules'.

You commendably followed the rules to the letter, in a way many clearly don't.

I would argue that given you wanted to pay cash, if the facility was not available, and given that you had correctly presented a 'promise to pay', then the barriers should have been opened for you, and you should have been wished a pleasant evening and sent on your way.

Certainly, the process is farcical.
Certainly, the barrier staff should have a cash float.
(I would hazard that the necessary people will read this, and that shortly they will ALWAYS have a cash float. )

But at no point were you at risk of 'additional' charges.

Choosing to pay by cash is still your right and your privilege, and long may it continue.

 

[DeverseSam]

To essentially be told that simply wasn’t possible, it was them that immediately told me they had no change and that everyone else paid by card so I had to pay by card.

Derek is going from polite member of the staff to villain of the piece!

I would however be nervous that by paying with card at that point, I would be leaving myself open to the suggestion of paying only when challenged.

 

[robbeech]

Therefore, the issue of 'the fare plus £150' would not arise.

Unfortunately we do see them jumping straight to ‘admin fees’ for this sort of thing so I’m not convinced it wouldn’t arise. Again, putting myself in the shoes of another passenger without knowledge of the rules and it is very concerning.

Derek is going from polite member of the staff to villain of the piece!

No, I don’t agree with that at all. It’s not Derek’s fault he hasn’t been given cash to use as change, it’s not Derek’s fault he may not be completely familiar with the rules. Derek has almost certainly done nothing against his training here. If anything he likely felt like he was doing a favour by letting me pay at the ticket office so there are no issues at all with him, just the system.

I would however be nervous that by paying with card at that point, I would be leaving myself open to the suggestion of paying only when challenged

Again, he’s following instructions given by his employer. He’s not deliberately trying to catch people out but I understand the concept, and a revenue inspector would (and indeed should) do this.

I had a ticket office refuse to take cash from me recently, directed me to the TVM (this was at the beginning of a journey). I’m not sure if they are allowed to do this but I wasn’t impressed.

They may well have been having technical issues which meant they couldn’t deal with cash at that time. Providing you were able to buy the ticket you needed without additional cost then I wouldn’t be concerned over an isolated incident like this. Of course if it happened all the time then it would be cause for concern and likely worthy of communication with the operator.