Northern withdraws some CAF trains due to yaw bracket failures

AgentGemini

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And all I can do is LOL galore - (as long as noone is hurt or any serious incidents happen) - because...I look at West Midlands Trains and their much hyped 196s which have still to obtain the 50000 miles quality testing even now. And then things like this are abroad? I forsee WMT Birmingham-Hereford and Shrewsbury services suffering if they do not retain the faithful 170s as reserve. An insider friend of mine works 170s and says "they're tubs, they're old, the trim is falling to bits, but by gods they'll get you and everyone home and safe too. I'll miss them."
 
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Bletchleyite

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And all I can do is LOL galore - (as long as noone is hurt or any serious incidents happen) - because...I look at West Midlands Trains and their much hyped 196s which have still to obtain the 50000 miles quality testing even now. And then things like this are abroad? I forsee WMT Birmingham-Hereford and Shrewsbury services suffering if they do not retain the faithful 170s as reserve. An insider friend of mine works 170s and says "they're tubs, they're old, the trim is falling to bits, but by gods they'll get you and everyone home and safe too. I'll miss them."

As I've said elsewhere the only major problem with Class 170s is that they didn't build roughly twice as many of them.
 

hexagon789

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Yes and the slotted design also means very little resistance to rotational forces in the vertical plane
If anything I'm surprised the other units passed checks given 22 are out of service and the design looks so flimsy.

As I've said elsewhere the only major problem with Class 170s is that they didn't build roughly twice as many of them.
And with about 100 extra horses...
 

AgentGemini

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As I've said elsewhere the only major problem with Class 170s is that they didn't build roughly twice as many of them.
I'm no expert myself, but my friend worked 172s and then 170s. Prefers the 172s for corridor connections (his past and present lines have short platforms) but the 170s he's cool with. he does bemoan Abellio's "silliness" for having deposed of the 170 middle cars and making the current rakes 2 x 2car 170s. I am told they are being forced back into ticketing next week. How, he asks, will there be ticketing capable covering the whole train and a competent safe person available to all carriages, he asks. He dreads the day a guard is ticket checking in the front and somehow the rear detaches.

Otherwise, he says he would much rather keep the 170s.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm no expert myself, but my friend worked 172s and then 170s. Prefers the 172s for corridor connections (his past and present lines have short platforms) but the 170s he's cool with. he does bemoan Abellio's "silliness" for having deposed of the 170 middle cars and making the current rakes 2 x 2car 170s. I am told they are being forced back into ticketing next week. How, he asks, will there be ticketing capable covering the whole train and a competent safe person available to all carriages, he asks. He dreads the day a guard is ticket checking in the front and somehow the rear detaches.

Unless we think the quality of the couplers is also an issue (probably least likely as they'll be bought in) that could equally happen with a gangwayed train. All DOO TOCs accept the risk because there is no member of staff anywhere but the front.
 

hwl

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If anything I'm surprised the other units passed checks given 22 are out of service and the design looks so flimsy.
So am I!

It may well be the 22 highest mileage or 22 that have operated on more challenging routes most often that have failed so far.

As so as it start to go they will go moderately quickly.
 

Bigman

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So, as things stand, how many units are Northern going to be short of and is this going to impact on the services?
 

py_megapixel

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So, as things stand, how many units are Northern going to be short of and is this going to impact on the services?
They're short 22 units, which I think currently, with the slightly reduced timetable, they are managing to cover by shortforming other services - obviously not ideal but it is what it is.

However if the predictions of other members are correct in that we could see the same thing on many others in quick succession, combined with the fact that Northern have struggled a lot in the past for DMU availability and that the timetable is due to ramp up in mid-May, I wouldn't be surprised to see cancellations or stock shortages leading to crowded trains.
 

Jamesrob637

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So, as things stand, how many units are Northern going to be short of and is this going to impact on the services?

Around Manchester, many booked 6-car will have to run as 3-car for a little while.
 

Merle Haggard

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As I've said elsewhere the only major problem with Class 170s is that they didn't build roughly twice as many of them.

When the first batch of 170s were delivered to the first M.M.L. franchise as HST replacements they weren't reliable. There were door problems, particularly at platforms where the track is cambered (there's a few like that) which resulted in delays. On one occasion I happened to be sitting opposite someone who clearly worked for the builders and struck up a conciliatory conversation with him. He did explain that there were 24 (I think) separate detectors on the doors to confirm closure and, when the doors were not vertical they were too sensitive to detect complete closure.
And one of its engines fell off a 170 at speed near Bedford early on, as well.
 

py_megapixel

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Time to crack out the pacers again? :D
Interesting question there about which has better ride quality; a functional Pacer or a CAF with a major fault with the bogies... :D

When the first batch of 170s were delivered to the first M.M.L. franchise as HST replacements they weren't reliable. There were door problems, particularly at platforms where the track is cambered (there's a few like that) which resulted in delays. On one occasion I happened to be sitting opposite someone who clearly worked for the builders and struck up a conciliatory conversation with him. He did explain that there were 24 (I think) separate detectors on the doors to confirm closure and, when the doors were not vertical they were too sensitive to detect complete closure.
And one of its engines fell off a 170 at speed near Bedford early on, as well.
Basically every new model has significant issues at introduction. The 323s, now pretty reliable, were once so bad that they couldn't even take over the routes they were ordered for until a long time after completion, same thing with the more recent 458s. The GWR 800s had the faulty PIS, the issues with diesel/electric switchover and of course the infamous leaky aircon.

Around Manchester, many booked 6-car will have to run as 3-car for a little while.
That may be true for the EMUs but there's not that much booked 6-car DMU working is there (at least there wasn't last time I was there) - could it possibly necessitate downgrading some 4-car Sprinter formations to 2-car so that the other half can cover for a 195?
 

southern442

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Basically every new model has significant issues at introduction. The 323s, now pretty reliable, were once so bad that they couldn't even take over the routes they were ordered for until a long time after completion, same thing with the more recent 458s. The GWR 800s had the faulty PIS, the issues with diesel/electric switchover and of course the infamous leaky aircon.
This is very true, although this fault it seems is more serious than most. Obviously it isn't often that many units have to be withdrawn from service. Although mind you the 458s did end up becoming Britain's most reliable train for a while and they basically did not work at all for the first few years of their life.
 

CBlue

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If this is the case, given that Victorian Infrastructure is what we have, would it not have been wiser to have designed bogies that WERE able to run on it?
Better off rebuilding the infrastructure to modern standards, surely!
 

robbeech

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Better off rebuilding the infrastructure to modern standards, surely!
Absolutely, but such a thing isn't possible in the proposed lifetime of these vehicles so it's not really an acceptable excuse.
 

popeter45

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do the Mk5's share the same Yaw Bracket design?
would be pretty serious for Caladonia if they had to withdraw there entire stock due to such an issue
 

LOL The Irony

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Makes me wonder if the Northern units in particular were built to a price, with corners being cut to avoid CAF producing them at a loss.
As Nym explained, it's not just Northern. TPE have also suffered from delivery & acceptance issues and teething problems. A 196 has yet to be accepted by WMT, with the entire job stopped as of now due to the number of issues.
 

Mordac

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It does raise the interesting question of what happened in the intervening time to make these so much worse than the DMUs they built for NIR.
 

squizzler

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Or, how about looking at it the other way? The processes the industry has in place have worked exactly as they should and have found the failure before an accident occurred, other operators have been notified, the fleet has been checked and immediate risk has been contained and now cause can be determined and counter measures put in place...

Problems like this happen all the time across the industry, and have done for years and will continue to do so for years, and the measure of the organisations involved is how they address it.
I suspect this is the right answer. On consideration of the ex-BR heaps that these trains are replacing, I for one welcome our new Civity overlords, and look forward to riding them on the TfW network in particular. Teething troubles are just a fact of life.
 

Ribbleman

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I suspect this is the right answer. On consideration of the ex-BR heaps that these trains are replacing, I for one welcome our new Civity overlords, and look forward to riding them on the TfW network in particular. Teething troubles are just a fact of life.
The dreadful ride quality of these CAF units is more than a teething trouble. It’s a poor show when new stock gives a worse ride than trains designed over 30 years ago.
 

Bletchleyite

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The dreadful ride quality of these CAF units is more than a teething trouble. It’s a poor show when new stock gives a worse ride than trains designed over 30 years ago.

To be fair the two classes with a near-perfect ride are 158 and 221. We can cross out 221 because it's mainly just because they are so heavy. The 158, however, was an utter masterpiece that has yet to be beaten before or after, riding superbly on even the worst jointed track. But it's possibly hard to do that with inside-framed bogies?
 

superkev

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I'm old enough to remember when the 158s when new had cracking of the similar yaw damper bracket and had to return to works for a much more substantial one to be fitted.
Pic attached of a 158 bogie
Note the replacement bracket (the one with the hole in) extends up the body side and looks to be welded or bonded to the side.
How or if you can weld steel to aluminium I know not.
K
 

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LNW-GW Joint

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I'm old enough to remember when the 158s when new had cracking of the similar yaw damper bracket and had to return to works for a much more substantial one to be fitted.
Pic attached of a 158 bogie
Note the replacement bracket (the one with the hole in) extends up the body side and looks to be welded or bonded to the side.
How or if you can weld steel to aluminium I know not.
K
Plus the fact that when BREL was privatised, the deal allowed ABB to avoid any warranty issues on the 158s.
So all the remedial cost then fell on BR/DfT.
 

superkev

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Dont CAF have the order for the new Docklands units. If they break in London there will be questions on the house. K
 

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