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Notice Periods

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Economist

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I've recently been taking a look (though not yet applied) at a rare opportunity in the aviation industry and the recruiting timescales for that particular opportunity are based around successful candidates having a one month notice period. I've enquired about this since I'm on a three month notice period and they've said it wouldn't be compatible, there's no flexibility in the start dates they are offering.

Has anyone seen a situation where a driver has been able to negotiate down a notice period whilst still leaving a TOC on good terms?

It's very far off though I think it's worth an ask.
 
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ComUtoR

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Leaving already :/

Notice periods are generally discretionary. You could explain the situation and they may be flexible. There would be a problem if you were in any PQA period where you need to repay training costs. My TOC has been VERY strict on that recently. Another thing that happened is that a few Drivers were bought out of their notice periods.

Ultimately there is nothing stopping you from quitting and never turning up to work again.
 

Tooktook

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An interesting question.

Although not an answer as such we had an employee (driver) who wanted to relocate to another company (providing only one months notice).

Due to the nature of the role (ie lots of training and money invested in you) hr and management insisted that he serve his full three months notice.

After one month he actually just left the company. There was no come back (ie he managed to leave) but rumours are they withheld his last pay cheque.

A lot of other factors would come in I imagine ie pqa period. I’m guessing companies want to get a few years productive driving.

Anyway....that was a roundabout way of saying hmmm not sure....but doubt they’ll be happy . But will Watch this thread with interest.
 
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EBlackadder

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It's not uncommon for employers to enforce notice periods - up to and including court action for breach of contract - but generally only for 'executive' members of staff.

My TOC is extremely flexible around notice periods, but with drivers in many TOCs now approaching 'executive' remuneration packages (at least compared to many other industries) maybe we'll start to see a less relaxed approach? With shortages across the country and swingeing fines for cancellations, I can see the attraction in holding particularly drivers to their T&Cs.
 

Cavan

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I would advise against quitting on then just disappearing. Wouldn't look great when the inevitable reference is needed from your employer!

Like all things you can ask the question and see if there are any options.
 

bionic

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I can think of one particular TOC who let drivers go to another specific TOC next day without serving any of their notice period whatsoever, but then trying to screw thousands out drivers leaving a matter of months before their 3 years is up and also insisting they work their full 12 weeks notice (these drivers were not going to that specific TOC). So no notice at all can be done, but only when it suits that particular firm.
 

Bromley boy

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I've recently been taking a look (though not yet applied) at a rare opportunity in the aviation industry and the recruiting timescales for that particular opportunity are based around successful candidates having a one month notice period. I've enquired about this since I'm on a three month notice period and they've said it wouldn't be compatible, there's no flexibility in the start dates they are offering.

Has anyone seen a situation where a driver has been able to negotiate down a notice period whilst still leaving a TOC on good terms?

It's very far off though I think it's worth an ask.

In practice, even if you stopped showing up to work tomorrow, there would be nothing they could do other than withhold your pay.

If something came up which looked like a better option for you it would be madness to pass it up just for the sake of honouring a notice period, in my view.

Give as much notice as you reasonably can in the circumstances and crack on.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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there would be nothing they could do other than withhold your pay.
A common misconception. They could also give a (truthful) bad reference, potentially jeopardising the employment opportunity, and could even recover the direct costs incurred by not working your notice period - for example, if it's necessary to pay other drivers a higher overtime rate to cover for you, the additional cost of overtime compared to the normal rate would be recoverable.

Of course not all TOCs would do this but I think it's disingenuous to suggest nothing will happen if you don't honour your notice period without prior agreement.
 

Bromley boy

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A common misconception. They could also give a (truthful) bad reference, potentially jeopardising the employment opportunity, and could even recover the direct costs incurred by not working your notice period - for example, if it's necessary to pay other drivers a higher overtime rate to cover for you, the additional cost of overtime compared to the normal rate would be recoverable.

Of course not all TOCs would do this but I think it's disingenuous to suggest nothing will happen if you don't honour your notice period without prior agreement.

Not a misconception, a reality (note, I did say “in practice” ;) ).

There is far too much scaremongering on the railway about this kind of thing.

If you breach your employment contract by leaving before your notice date the TOC can certainly withhold monies owed to you: pay; accrued holiday etc. but there is no realistic prospect of them coming after you for any other amounts.

The amounts of money at stake are far too small for any rational commercial organisation to bother incurring (likely unrecoverable) costs to try and recover.

Clauses in contracts requiring repayment of training fees are also almost certainly unenforceable, in the way they are usually drafted by TOCs. They are only put there try and scare people into remaining for a few years after getting their keys.

Even references these days are generally limited in scope to “person W worked here from date X to date Y”, and your safety record.

I would never advise anyone to leave on bad terms for the sake of it, but in the OPs case it would be madness to lose a role in a completely unrelated industry, just for the sake of honouring a notice period and forfeiting a couple of months’ salary.
 

387star

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Train driving is better thsn aviation
It must be. One bloke quit then decided train driving made more sense financially once training costs factored in
 

ComUtoR

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and could even recover the direct costs incurred by not working your notice period - for example, if it's necessary to pay other drivers a higher overtime rate to cover for you, the additional cost of overtime compared to the normal rate would be recoverable.

The TOC would have to prove what costs were incurred. If trains were cancelled they would need to prove that they had no other choice but to cancel the service and how much it cost. There is a built in amount of spare cover to allow for any form of staff shortages. They would need to prove that spare cover wasn't used and if someone covered the work with overtime, spare cover wasn't available.

Overtime rates tend to be fixed so there wouldn't be any special rate and even then they would need to prove that it was additional overtime outside of the expected budget for the period.

I'd also be very careful with supplying a bad reference. If you were a model employee and only left before your notice period then you couldn't give a 'bad' reference. That would be dishonest. It would also look bad on the TOC. Holding someone to a 12 week notice period for no real reason other than 'because then can' can appear spiteful. Not forgetting that leaving to start another job may also mean you have already secured a position so don't need a reference

It is always preferable to leave on good terms. It is in everyone's best interest to be flexible.

We had a model employee hand their notice in. He was told that he would have to give the 12 weeks. He went off sick with stress. Suffice to say, he was released. I'm not justifying going sick but it does happen and there is barely little the TOC could do.

You need employees to be productive. People who are on notice and winding down tend to be less productive; especially those who feel they are being held hostage.

Speak to HR, discuss the situation with your Managers etc and come to an agreement.
 

Economist

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Thank you for the replies so far, from what I can tell, it would seem to depend somewhat on TOC, management etc.

Bionic, I'm guessing your example was when the drivers went between two TOCs with the same parent company?

If it came to buying my way out I'd consider that since it'd be much cheaper than paying for pilot training myself, the opportunity in question is basically a fully-airline-funded route to the flight deck with a national flag-carrier. I'd want to keep my existing company on-side since I'd need a reference for an airside pass and besides, if it didn't work out, I'd try and get back to the railway with a different TOC.

I don't have any specific desire to leave my current employer for anything else at the moment except E*.
 

Stigy

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Clauses in contracts requiring repayment of training fees are also almost certainly unenforceable, in the way they are usually drafted by TOCs. They are only put there try and scare people into remaining for a few years after getting their keys.
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Certain not unenforceable, but probably not likely to be chased up. The contract is legally binding, but the only way of enforcement would be through the courts really. I’ve never fallen foul of contract law, but unless the contracts were written by a child, or unsigned (even then I believe the become ‘valid’ after a certain time?), they’re enforceable.

It’s usually the case that companies simply don’t have the resources or can’t be bothered with the paperwork aspect of chasing after people who breach their contracted terms.
 

bionic

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Bionic, I'm guessing your example was when the drivers went between two TOCs with the same parent company?

If you are referring to the episode where all 50-odd drivers from a certain depot who already do the other TOC's work for far less money who applied were not taken on, but drivers from other depots who didn't already do the new TOC's work transferred seamlessly across with no notice period and nothing resembling a normal recruitment process taking place, then your guess might not be an incorrect one! :D
 

ComUtoR

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If you are referring to the episode where all 50-odd drivers from a certain depot who already do the other TOC's work for far less money who applied were not taken on

The depot has a link of 64 and in no way was the number anywhere near 50. That was heavily inflated through gossip and rumor.

You constantly mention this. Why so cynical/bitter ? Granted there seems to be no logic to what happened, and many still think there is some kind of back room deal, but the recruitment drive wasn't for that depot. The least qualified Drivers got the positions is certainly against employment law but commercially it made sense. The depot in question is needed to cover the work so why create a situation where you commit commercial suicide ?
 

387star

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If you are referring to the episode where all 50-odd drivers from a certain depot who already do the other TOC's work for far less money who applied were not taken on, but drivers from other depots who didn't already do the new TOC's work transferred seamlessly across with no notice period and nothing resembling a normal recruitment process taking place, then your guess might not be an incorrect one! :D
Sounds like the southern guys coming to thameslink without an interview or anything whilst thameslink have to apply externally for southern driver positions ! They'd rather pay to taxi people to bridges from say Chichester than have them.placed at barnham lol
I believe depot drivers at bridges now have the option of southern mainline depots
 

bionic

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The depot has a link of 64 and in no way was the number anywhere near 50. That was heavily inflated through gossip and rumor.

Is that figure really inflated? Why wouldn't anyone want to book on at the same location to do the same work for loads more money? The question is not why WOULD you put in for it, but why WOULDN'T you?

You constantly mention this. Why so cynical/bitter ?

On this particular occasion I mentioned it purely to illustrate the point in response to the OP that in some circumstances notice periods can be waived. On other occasions I've mentioned it to people who have been left waiting YEARS for trainee driver jobs that may never materialise. When you see things like that going on it's hard not to be cynical about it, but bitter? No, like the Murphy's, I'm not bitter.

The depot in question is needed to cover the work so why create a situation where you commit commercial suicide ?

Obviously they aren't going to take the drivers from TOC A so they can sit spare for TOC B while TOC A is cancelling TOC B's trains due to lack of coverage. They will move across with the work.

Sounds like the southern guys coming to thameslink without an interview or anything whilst thameslink have to apply externally for southern driver positions ! They'd rather pay to taxi people to bridges from say Chichester than have them.placed at barnham lol
I believe depot drivers at bridges now have the option of southern mainline depots

Sounds familiar!
 

ComUtoR

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Is that figure really inflated? Why wouldn't anyone want to book on at the same location to do the same work for loads more money? The question is not why WOULD you put in for it, but why WOULDN'T you?

Yes the figure is inflated.

The money is nice and the TOC in question is far behind and there are many gripes about it. Personally I think they will get screwed again. Money isn't everything and the conditions aren't favorable to everyone. There are other factors too that may not be self evident. I know some who questioned losing their seniority. Some have questioned pension. I spoke to a few who just felt that they were too close to retirement for it to make any difference. I know just as many who have transfers in to other depots (this depot has a very high turnover)

There was a big chunk who applied and not just at the depot in question. It has caused a lot of bad blood and I don't see this ending well. December is at the forefront of people minds and there is a lot of mistrust.

The TOC is now oversubscribed so taking people on either through TUPE or direct employment is looking less and less likely.

Neither TOC has a good reputation but one side is certainly worse than the other. I'd take the money, not the conditions or the working environment.
 

Bromley boy

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Certain not unenforceable, but probably not likely to be chased up.

On the contrary, as drafted by my TOC, they are unenforceable penalty clauses.

The TOC is fully aware they aren’t enforceable as a matter of law, but still tries to badger and bully drivers who don’t know their true legal position into paying money which is not owed.

That bullying soon disappears when they encounter someone who stands up for themselves and refuses to pay.

That is a sad state of affairs, they are basically preying on peoples’ ignorance.

The contract is legally binding, but the only way of enforcement would be through the courts really.

Just because you sign a contract, that doesn’t mean every term within it is legally binding.

Unenforceable penalty clauses are one example of this.

Another example would be if you signed an employment contract which specified that you would be paid less than minimum wage. The overall employment contract would be binding, but the wages clause would be void.

I’ve never fallen foul of contract law, but unless the contracts were written by a child, or unsigned (even then I believe the become ‘valid’ after a certain time?), they’re enforceable.

Unsigned contracts can indeed become enforceable through a course of dealings. In fact, there’s no requirement for contracts to even be written down, let alone signed, in order to be enforceable. But all of that is off topic!

It’s usually the case that companies simply don’t have the resources or can’t be bothered with the paperwork aspect of chasing after people who breach their contracted terms.

Agreed!
 
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Evolution

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Thank you for the replies so far, from what I can tell, it would seem to depend somewhat on TOC, management etc.

Bionic, I'm guessing your example was when the drivers went between two TOCs with the same parent company?

If it came to buying my way out I'd consider that since it'd be much cheaper than paying for pilot training myself, the opportunity in question is basically a fully-airline-funded route to the flight deck with a national flag-carrier. I'd want to keep my existing company on-side since I'd need a reference for an airside pass and besides, if it didn't work out, I'd try and get back to the railway with a different TOC.

I don't have any specific desire to leave my current employer for anything else at the moment except E*.
Would this be the clover wearing airline by any chance? I recently saw they were running the scheme again.

I applied last year, however, it's very difficult to get through, especially without an aviation background. You've got people with a PPL applying and getting knocked back.

From doing some research and speaking to a few pilots I actually think train driving is probably a better option in the current climate. Obviously left hand seat with 10+ years' experience and you will be earning quite a bit more than a driver but is the pension as good?
 

Bromley boy

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If it came to buying my way out I'd consider that since it'd be much cheaper than paying for pilot training myself, the opportunity in question is basically a fully-airline-funded route to the flight deck with a national flag-carrier. I'd want to keep my existing company on-side since I'd need a reference for an airside pass and besides, if it didn't work out, I'd try and get back to the railway with a different TOC.

I don't have any specific desire to leave my current employer for anything else at the moment except E*.

PM me when you get a chance...
 
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Goingloco

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Leaving already :/

Notice periods are generally discretionary. You could explain the situation and they may be flexible. There would be a problem if you were in any PQA period where you need to repay training costs. My TOC has been VERY strict on that recently. Another thing that happened is that a few Drivers were bought out of their notice periods.

Ultimately there is nothing stopping you from quitting and never turning up to work again.

Interesting read...........

As a soon to start trainee, how long do TOC's generally tie you in post qualification before you're free from repaying training costs??

Cheers.
 

bionic

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The TOC is now oversubscribed so taking people on either through TUPE or direct employment is looking less and less likely.

There are 19 jobs to go over, to adequately cover those you realistically need the number of drivers to roughly equate to the number of weekday jobs x3. That's 57 drivers, give or take, required to cover those 19 jobs. Have they got 57 drivers twiddling their thumbs in a spare link next door? No. Let's say I'm being generous, let's say you could cover those 19 jobs with 47 drivers - have they got 47 in a spare link waiting to pick up the work? No. They might be oversubscribed, but not at that particular depot. They'll need (lets say somewhere around the fifty mark) lots of new drivers when they take over the work. There are fifty blokes next door who already sign the routes and traction and have expressed an interest anyway.

There will be no 3 months notice periods in December (or whenever it finally happens) drivers will be working for TOC A one week and TOC B the next, just like what has happened previously in the examples outlined above. The only ones who need to worry are those with such poor safety records that TOC B won't touch them, because it's not TUPE they aren't compelled to take people so can cherry-pick. Meanwhile, those who want to leave to go anywhere else are being held to full 12 week notice periods and coerced into paying the company thousands of pounds that it's pretty clear isn't legally enforceable. I know some guys have actually paid it, and the fact they did shows just how flippin' desperate they were to get out!

It's a glaring double standard, but it does illustrate my original point that firms can waive notice periods when they want to and also take a cut-throat approach to anyone who dares try to better themselves and move on to bigger and better things off their own backs.

Good luck in your chosen career path Economist. I think TOC A is a pretty extreme example. I've heard there are plenty of other TOCs out there where staff get treated like adults and can be flexible with notice periods.
 

387star

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It can be hard to move TOCS as a qualified with a clean record
Some require you relocate

Other depots are untouchable like Eastbourne as only take internals

I guess if you wanted Eastbourne and worked at another TOC the only route would be via Gatwick Express. You'd hardly want a metro depot unless you already do that work
 

MoorsBox

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Hello, forum. Could anyone confirm what the notice period is for SWR, I'm guessing its 1 month/28days
Thanks in advance
 

Stigy

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Hello, forum. Could anyone confirm what the notice period is for SWR, I'm guessing its 1 month/28days
Thanks in advance
It depends on the role you’re in and the length of time in their employment. It will be in your contract, or HR will be able to advise on specifics.
 

Stigy

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Thanks Stigy
You’re welcome.

It is also worth noting that some companies have extended notice periods for certain grades. I know that SWR was usually 4 weeks, but for some management jobs it could be as high as 8 to 12 weeks. I think drivers were more than 4 weeks too but I could be wrong there.
 
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